Page 47 of 56 FirstFirst ...
37
45
46
47
48
49
... LastLast
  1. #921
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    All of this is correct and it is still evil, due to the fact that thousands of innocents are being killed with no say in the matter. Sure she feels bad about but it, does not change the underlying moral theme, the end justifies the means.


    Sure there are things that have to be done, but you can't just look away from what has been done.
    Again, Evil isn't the correct term to apply. Intention matters. Her intentions are not evil. Are doctors evil for advocating the removal of a limb to save the patient? Are health officials "evil" for quarantining the sick and diseased, basically forcing them to die in isolation, in order to prevent the spread of the disease and death of the larger population? The same logic applies here.

    It's a clinical, cold and pragmatic decision she has to make to save the whole of Ardenweald but it's not "Evil."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It just means there are good choices and it is literally the lesser evil, but evil nonetheless.
    Just because the idiom "the lesser of two evils" is an apt description, doesn't mean it's literally evil.

  2. #922
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    If you refuse to act in your above scenario you would be just as evil, as innocent lives would still be lost when said angry deity destroys the land - and your choice would've directly facilitated the outcome. In a scenario where all outcomes could be said to contain evil, the "good" outcome is necessarily the one which minimizes evil.
    Incorrect, the only evil in this scenario is the deity.

  3. #923
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    31,914
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It just means there are good choices and it is literally the lesser evil, but evil nonetheless.
    In a scenario where there is no unsullied act that could be construed as good, the lesser evil is the greater good.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  4. #924
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyattbw09 View Post
    No, it’s shows her vision of the future. These are not the same. Many terrible things have been done, even if you just stick to WOW, simply because someone with power believed something would happen. That vision shows nothing more then the Queens presumption of what would happen.
    The thing is, it's not just a vision of something that believably might happen. What the Winter Queen showed Ara'lon was the end result of something that was already happening. The death and destruction of Ardenweald was in-progress, and clearly visible all around them. It's not just what the Winter Queen thinks is going to happen. She's more than likely better attuned to the state and health of her own realm than literally anyone else in the Shadowlands. Ardenweald is dying and she knows it clearly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyattbw09 View Post
    I might also point out, she was wrong. We are riding into Shadow Lands to fix everything. Her vision is simply one in which she was unable to envision the assistance of outsiders.
    I don't see your point here. What she saw was a vision of the future in which nothing was done to stop it. So of course she didn't foresee the aid of the Maw Walker. I don't understand where the fault lies with the Winter Queen here. If she'd seen the ordained future that was destined to happen with the aid of the Maw Walker, then the presumption is that steps still need to actively be taken to keep Ardenweald alive so that the good future can come to pass, which still means sacrificing slumbering souls to use their anima to slow the death of the realm.

    What... What's the problem here, exactly?
    Last edited by CalamityHeart; 2020-09-11 at 03:41 PM.

  5. #925
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    31,914
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Incorrect, the only evil in this scenario is the deity.
    That depends on whether the deity has any agency in its actions, and it's also not the thing under discussion. If you were to use that analogy, then the Winter Queen isn't evil at all - the Drought is.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  6. #926
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    In a scenario where there is no unsullied act that could be construed as good, the lesser evil is the greater good.
    No it is just the lesser of two evils and not good. Just less shitty.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post

    It's a clinical, cold and pragmatic decision she has to make to save the whole of Ardenweald but it's not "Evil."
    Clinical cold pragmatic decisions are usually evil, since they often decide who lives and who dies.

    Again, Evil isn't the correct term to apply. Intention matters. Her intentions are not evil. Are doctors evil for advocating the removal of a limb to save the patient? Are health officials "evil" for quarantining the sick and diseased, basically forcing them to die in isolation, in order to prevent the spread of the disease and death of the larger population? The same logic applies here.
    Intentions make these decisions more relatable, but do not absolve them of being evil.

    Lets say a pest strain immune against antibiotics breaks out and a city is put under quarantine, a family fearing for their safety tries to break out, thus endangering potentially millions of lives. They do not stop running despite being told to do so, then by all means they should all be gunned down, this would have been a necessary decisions but an evil one.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-09-11 at 03:47 PM.

  7. #927
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Clinical cold pragmatic decisions are usually evil, since they often decide who lives and who dies.
    No, they're not. Evil is in the intent. You're labeling anything that takes away an individual's agency, evil, which is not the definition of evil. It's evil to YOU, but that doesn't make it so.

    Intentions make these decisions more relatable, but do not absolve them of being evil.
    Evil is in the intent. Just because someone dies, or because that person had no say in the matter, doesn't make the decision evil.

    Again, just because you define it as evil, doesn't make it so.

  8. #928
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    31,914
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    No it is just the lesser of two evils and not good. Just less shitty.
    That's not really how any models of morality actually function, and "shitty" isn't an ethical or moral stance one way or the other. The situation that Ardenweald is in is shitty, I agree; but that's neither here nor there when discussing the morality of the Winter Queen's actions.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  9. #929
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    No, they're not. Evil is in the intent. You're labeling anything that takes away an individual's agency, evil, which is not the definition of evil. It's evil to YOU, but that doesn't make it so.
    Evil is doing something morally reprehensible, which killing innocents is.

    Evil is in the intent. Just because someone dies, or because that person had no say in the matter, doesn't make the decision evil.

    Again, just because you define it as evil, doesn't make it so.
    I disagree

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That's not really how any models of morality actually function, and "shitty" isn't an ethical or moral stance one way or the other. The situation that Ardenweald is in is shitty, I agree; but that's neither here nor there when discussing the morality of the Winter Queen's actions.
    She kills thousands of innocents to sustain potentially millions of others and killing innocents is reprehensible as such I call it evil ,agree or not at this point I don't care.

  10. #930
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Evil is doing something morally reprehensible, which killing innocents is.
    It very heavily depends on the context.

    I agree that it's a terrible decision to have to make, but if it saves more lives and in some situations prevents the deaths of even more innocents it's not morally reprehensible. In fact, it would be reprehensible to do nothing, and therefore allow even more innocents to die.

    I disagree
    Which is fine, but context, intent and the overall outcome absolutely matter. You're completely disregarding those things.

  11. #931
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    No it is just the lesser of two evils and not good. Just less shitty.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Clinical cold pragmatic decisions are usually evil, since they often decide who lives and who dies.



    Intentions make these decisions more relatable, but do not absolve them of being evil.

    Lets say a pest strain immune against antibiotics breaks out and a city is put under quarantine, a family fearing for their safety tries to break out, thus endangering potentially millions of lives and they do not stop running despite being told to do so, then by all means they should be gunned down, this would have been a necessary decisions but an evil one.
    When everything else fails, a good rule of thumb is the mindset of the person. If the person in question recognizes an act as evil (according to their own conscience) but commits it anyway then it's simple. Of course, sometimes good people do evil things against their conscience, I'm not denying that. The Winter Queen obviously knew it was a bad act from her reactions but she did what she deemed necessary. So, necessary evil.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That depends on whether the deity has any agency in its actions, and it's also not the thing under discussion. If you were to use that analogy, then the Winter Queen isn't evil at all - the Drought is.
    Well some things need to be assumed for the sake of discussion otherwise we'll be just walking in circles. xd
    Last edited by bagina; 2020-09-11 at 03:59 PM.

  12. #932
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Which is fine, but context, intent and the overall outcome absolutely matter. You're completely disregarding those things.
    I don't, I just reached a different conclussion your bar for evil is just set higher than mine, that is all there is to it.

  13. #933
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Evil is doing something morally reprehensible, which killing innocents is.



    I disagree

    - - - Updated - - -



    She kills thousands of innocents to sustain potentially millions of others and killing innocents is reprehensible as such I call it evil ,agree or not at this point I don't care.
    what is your stance on the railroad dilemma, and is there an action that's not evil in this case. This is not a gotcha question, just wondering where you stand.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

  14. #934
    Quote Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
    what is your stance on the railroad dilemma, and is there an action that's not evil in this case. This is not a gotcha question, just wondering where you stand.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
    Kill one person.

  15. #935
    The Wild Hunt itself is not the only thing we should consider when debating the Winter Queen's guilt.

    We also have to wonder to what degree her passivity (and that of the other Eternal Ones) allowed the Jailer to go through with his plans. They are the keepers of the Shadowlands and the ones who imprisoned him, after all. They are responsible for the solution they used to contain him.

    Other aspects are her reaction speed at the start of the drought and her communication with her followers. Ara'lon was not aware of the Wild Hunt in spite of the fact that the drought had gone one for several seasons. He was left pretty much to fend for himself, until the Winter Queen's posse came to take his stuff. Nor did he have a say in the first pods they claimed while he was away (Urson was merely the last one left).

    Then, there is the fact that she failed to ask another Covenant for help for the longest time. From what I understand, at the end of the zone campaign she sends the PC to Revendreth (sure, Denathrius is in league with the Jailer, but she didn't know that). We also don't know whether or not she has any extra power of her own that she could sacrifice for Ardenweald. I mean, is it really an impossible choice, or is it just bad management...?

    Finally - and again I might have a faulty understanding of what transpires in the quest line - couldn't she give an option to the sacrificed Wild Gods to remain bound to Ardenweald and fight for it one last time instead of simply being consumed? Of course, the flip of that argument could be that the Wild God souls are not owed resurrection. That seems more like a privilege than a right, but we don't know how the practice came to be (now that I think about it, Ardenweald could exercise HUGE political influence over the tribal races on mortal worlds by choosing which of their gods to revive faster and which ones to cull altogether... another element that makes them kind of creepy, although, like everything else, it all depends on whether or not the writers are aware of the implications).

  16. #936
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    31,914
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Well some things need to be assumed for the sake of discussion otherwise we'll be just walking in circles. xd
    Granted, but *which* things are actually assumed in any given scenario is an important factor is determining ultimate outcomes.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  17. #937
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Kill one person.
    By your own definition that is evil..... because the person is an innocent and didn't get any say in the matter.

    How is it not evil in this Trolley problem case, but evil in the Ardenweald case?

  18. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    By your own definition that is evil..... because the person is an innocent and didn't get any say in the matter.

    How is it not evil in this Trolley problem case, but evil in the Ardenweald case?
    Yes it is evil and I would be evil for doing it.

  19. #939
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yes it is evil and I would be evil for doing it.
    Well, OK then...

    Moving on.

  20. #940
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Well, OK then...

    Moving on.
    I don't know what you expected, me to say it wouldn't be evil? Why would I say that because it would affect myself, what kind of flimsy worldview would that be?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •