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  1. #381
    They were never going to canonically validate the self-casting of “player character as actual villain.” Not in this story, not in this game.

    You can RP your character however you choose, but yes, in canon, you are the hero, no question, no deviation. The few times they try to grey this up feel forced and are soon glossed over with “a certain point of view.”

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Honestly, this. There was clearly a right decision and you chose badly. Enjoy the fruits of your poor decision
    What consequences?
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    What consequences?
    I mean aside from the leader of the loyalists publicly declaring them worthless, you get a dead storyline. It was obvious to literally everyone that this wouldn't end well. Blizzards writers can't write a diverging storyline, ya'll should have known better lol.

    It's like clinging to a ceo who's failed several times in the past expecting this time to be different. Utter insanity.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    Please realize appearances mean jack shit when you do what you love.
    They only mean jackshit if you own it or your boss is ok with it. But appearances aside, this guy just looks unhealthy. He absolutely does need to go outside and do something

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Nope, sorry. They did. The Blood Oath does not make such exeptions:

    "I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.

    From this moment until the end of days I live and die - For the Horde!"

    If it is Sylvanas desire that you die, you are compelled to commit suicide. Unless of course you can beat her in single combat, which no one in the Horde or otherwise can.

    The Horde loves to have it both ways: When they commit atrocities it is not them, but the Warchief and that damn Blood Oath that cruelly forced them to obey, but when that Warchief turns on them, they instantly forget about the Oath and go into rebellion. Something which Sylvanas was fully aware of, since she participated in the rebellion against ol' Garrosh, so she hid her desire of killing people by making the Horde do what it does best: Wage unjust bloody war.

    I am not defending this system btw. I am amazed that all these races joined the Horde knowing they would literally become slaves to a single dictators will.

    It's a system that is so ridiculously flawed it is a miracle it has only twice ended in catastrophe.
    It is indeed extremely puzzling that even proud, millenia-old civilizations that just escaped the clutches of tyranny would ever willingly submit to such a diktat.

    The Blood Oath being worthless in actuality is a given obviously, since no Horde focused story even happens without it being broken a half dozen times if you really squint closely at everyone's actions. In fiction, oaths of absolute loyalty exist only to be broken at the end of the day, unless you want a faction so uniform and copy-paste that it makes the current Alliance look dynamic.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I mean aside from the leader of the loyalists publicly declaring them worthless, you get a dead storyline. It was obvious to literally everyone that this wouldn't end well. Blizzards writers can't write a diverging storyline, ya'll should have known better lol.

    It's like clinging to a ceo who's failed several times in the past expecting this time to be different. Utter insanity.
    So there are no consequences at all. Good, I'm back to getting loved by Anduin, Baine, Tyrande, Zappy Boy, and everyone else. Seems like it doesn't matter that I was willing to kill them all just one patch ago. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Which is why it's so great that the Blood Oath is dead forever with the removal of the warchief position. Something they should've done when Thrall came to power, but back then they had a sane leader who ruled with wisdom over force so the Horde almost always followed him willingly.

    We can finally stop citing a single obscure quest in Dragonblight as the end-all-be-all singular virtue of the Horde.
    I agree, but will add "for now". Because with all the backlash Blizzard is getting (#Hordeisdead, #Redalliance, #Baineismyarchnemesis), we will soon have a Warchief again and the cycle will start anew.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    So there are no consequences at all. Good, I'm back to getting loved by Anduin, Baine, Tyrande, Zappy Boy, and everyone else. Seems like it doesn't matter that I was willing to kill them all just one patch ago. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    That anyone is ok with this being the state of wow is just disappointing :/

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    So there are no consequences at all. Good, I'm back to getting loved by Anduin, Baine, Tyrande, Zappy Boy, and everyone else. Seems like it doesn't matter that I was willing to kill them all just one patch ago. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    It is consistent that the Loyalists are acting in secret. It feel a little like playing the Dark Brotherhood in Elder Scrolls game. The most overt thing a Sylvanas loyalist does is tell Zekhan that they won't betray the Warchief, which is pretty reasonable.

    Oh, also loyalists tell Nathanos about Baine both planning to betray Sylvanas AND his plan to escape, Sylvanas? lets? you? do? it? anyway? meaning Sylvanas never intended to execute Baine in the first place? That seems inevitable on a game play level but on a ludo-narrative level that means she used the fake death sentence so Sylvanas could know where everyone's loyalties were.

  9. #389
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Oh, also loyalists tell Nathanos about Baine both planning to betray Sylvanas AND his plan to escape, Sylvanas? lets? you? do? it? anyway? meaning Sylvanas never intended to execute Baine in the first place? That seems inevitable on a game play level but on a ludo-narrative level that means she used the fake death sentence so Sylvanas could know where everyone's loyalties were.
    Sylvanas planned on using Baine's imprisonment to draw Saurfang and his co-conspirators out of hiding, which is why Magister Hathorel was stationed nearby and why magical safeguards were in place to prevent anyone from escaping before her forces had dealt with them (as she predicted Jaina's involvement in the escape attempt as well).
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    In fiction, oaths of absolute loyalty exist only to be broken at the end of the day, unless you want a faction so uniform and copy-paste that it makes the current Alliance look dynamic.
    No oath can be superior to that. People in Alliance already have an oath in their heart (or maybe their bones). And, sadly, it's infectious and spreads outside of the Alliance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Sylvanas planned on using Baine's imprisonment to draw Saurfang and his co-conspirators out of hiding, which is why Magister Hathorel was stationed nearby and why magical safeguards were in place to prevent anyone from escaping before her forces had dealt with them (as she predicted Jaina's involvement in the escape attempt as well).
    Still, either Sylvanas expecting a few magisters could stop Jaina is extremely ooc writing, or another example of Sylvanas' intentions not being what they appear

  12. #392
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Still, either Sylvanas expecting a few magisters could stop Jaina is extremely ooc writing, or another example of Sylvanas' intentions not being what they appear
    Anti-magic wards can stop Jaina pretty well, actually; she's powerful but her power is based on a single point of vulnerability - shut down her access to Arcane power and you effectively shut her down. Saurfang and Thrall could be dealt with via force of arms, but an extra step was needed if Jaina joined in the attempt. Even then, it wasn't enough and they were able to take Baine back, break the wards, and portal out before they could be captured or executed themselves.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Still, either Sylvanas expecting a few magisters could stop Jaina is extremely ooc writing, or another example of Sylvanas' intentions not being what they appear
    It certainly would've been enough if only the Horde conspirators were involved. "Baine would've died without your aid."

    I still maintain that her reasoning for making the Derek plot so public was to draw out anyone who would oppose her to be silenced, in much the same way her actions in War of Thorns tested if Saurfang would do blatantly dishonorable things in the name of loyalty to the warchief, as she would need him to do many times over as the war progressed.

    Still, all that's dipping into headcanon, I prefer it over everyone jumping on the "Sylvanas was just dumb" train. I always think back to a quote from The Giant who wrote Order of the Stick. Paraphrasing, "Instead of making assumptions that don't fit the text, and complaining that the text is wrong. Why not make assumptions that do fit the text?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    It certainly would've been enough if only the Horde conspirators were involved. "Baine would've died without your aid."

    I still maintain that her reasoning for making the Derek plot so public was to draw out anyone who would oppose her to be silenced, in much the same way her actions in War of Thorns tested if Saurfang would do blatantly dishonorable things in the name of loyalty to the warchief, as she would need him to do many times over as the war progressed.

    Still, all that's dipping into headcanon, I prefer it over everyone jumping on the "Sylvanas was just dumb" train. I always think back to a quote from The Giant who wrote Order of the Stick. Paraphrasing, "Instead of making assumptions that don't fit the text, and complaining that the text is wrong. Why not make assumptions that do fit the text?"
    Why make assumptions either way? And given how your solution stands in opposition to Okham's razor, how comes it's the one that fits the text? Oh, wait, I forgot. You divined Blizzard's specific "intent" for the story from fish guts. My bad
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    That anyone is ok with this being the state of wow is just disappointing :/
    I'm not okay with it, Blizz apparently is. Half my reason to side with Sylvi was to find out how far Blizz is willing to go. I would be okay with not having a choice at all, I never had one in WoW.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Except I didn't make an assumption. Which part of it being stated in-lore did you not understand? Do humor me. Alternatively, stop digging your hole deeper for no reason and acknowledge that there is a difference between a claim that the players who picked the traitor path outnumber the ones who picked the loyalist path (with Blizzard never even hinting anything about those numbers) and the statement that in-lore the loyalists (and not just of the player variety) outnumbered the traitors, especially when it's stated even by the other side.
    I don't have to "acknowledge" anything of the sort because, once again, "players" and "NPCs" were never part of my original statement where I pointed out your hypocrisy for criticizing others for making assumptions without knowledge while doing the same, yourself.

    So, where is this "in-game in-lore" claim that the loyalists outnumber the combined forces of the Horde rebels and the Alliance? Because I'm checking the war campaign quests, both sides, and nothing about anything remotely like "outnumbering". Worse, Nathanos himself admits of having "depleted ranks" and has you (as a loyalist) rally the civilians to make a militia:

    "The war has proven costly and our ranks have been steadily depleted. But the Horde is nothing if not strong. Each and every citizen of Orgrimmar is worth ten Alliance weaklings on the battlefield. Rally the citizens and form a militia! Remind them of their slain brothers and sisters!"

    Which also makes your own claim that the Horde was losing the war at that point something you pulled out of the Nether. The Horde may have been losing earlier on, but, as Garrosh put it, things change. Even before going to Durotar Anduin himself stated that he has enough men for one final push, while Saurfang pointed to the handful of Horde soldiers outside the tower as those who joined his noble cause.
    The Alliance won both warfronts. The Alliance also successfully invaded Dazar'Alor. The Alliance was winning. What do you have to show that "suddenly things changed" other than your unsupported claim that "loyalists outnumber the Horde rebels and Alliance combined"? Having "just enough for one final push" does not mean that the loyalists outnumber them. At best it means they're evenly numbered, and that's, again, a "best case scenario". Sylvanas had the fortifications of Orgrimmar on her side, for one.

    I'll remind you: if "loyalists" outnumber both the Horde rebels and the Alliance, put together, then the Horde would not have lost the warfronts, for the simple fact that the Horde would have many more soldiers and power than the Alliance to control those warfronts.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
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  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    I mean aside from the leader of the loyalists publicly declaring them worthless, you get a dead storyline. It was obvious to literally everyone that this wouldn't end well. Blizzards writers can't write a diverging storyline, ya'll should have known better lol.

    It's like clinging to a ceo who's failed several times in the past expecting this time to be different. Utter insanity.

    - - - Updated - - -



    They only mean jackshit if you own it or your boss is ok with it. But appearances aside, this guy just looks unhealthy. He absolutely does need to go outside and do something
    "Appearances aside, this guy just looks unhealthy". APPEARANCES. ASIDE. Yet, he LOOKS. UNHEALTHY. I'll let the oxymoron you just wrote sink in for a little, it's too hilarious :P

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalinos View Post
    "Appearances aside, this guy just looks unhealthy". APPEARANCES. ASIDE. Yet, he LOOKS. UNHEALTHY. I'll let the oxymoron you just wrote sink in for a little, it's too hilarious :P
    I mean in context I feel it's pretty clear we're talking about his state of dress vs his physicality. But fair enough lol

  19. #399
    I mean she actually had a " Good because I wanted to tell you my evil plan" moment.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    For what it's worth I'm really glad we had the loyalist option. From smaller gag bits like "Act like you're going to save Baine at all costs!" as I sat on the sidelines eating popcorn and drinking the free provided health potions, to the completely unique ending quests such as beating and dragging a Horde icon through the streets to be booed and mocked.

    I felt like total garbage for that, it was great! And when Sylvanas had the gall to confess everything to my face in the loyalist-exclusive epilogue, I was dumbstruck. It helped that I leveled that character intentionally finding every Sylvanas focused quest, so I thought back to her brainwashing my DK friend in the Plaguelands, raising Dalaran wizards and being scolded by Garrosh in Silverpine, and everything in between.

    Even RPing a forsaken death knight who had severe brain damage from being resurrected so many times, with <The Gullible> as a title, it got me to turn on Sylvanas.
    There's something extremely hilarious about this.

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