How will socialism in the US be different from other failed attempts at socialism?

[Zan15]

if intentional... salute!



I was hit during the instant transition from ‘they are both shit’ to ‘it’s Neo’...

Yup that number was not random.. especially for GP.

[Crispin]

So just curious. If the US makes the switch to pure socialism like liberals want how will it be different from other countries who have failed at it?

That question is as stupid and ignorant as if you were asked "What makes you think that the current fascist regime in the US will be any different, than other countries that saw nothing but oppression and wars during their fascist regime"

[Forogil]

There were already burgeoning signs of terminal illness way before :

In 2013



At that time the barrel was near $100...

True, and for comparison when the bloody coup general Chavez took the presidency in early 1999 the oil price was less than 27$.
Currently it is around 40$.

So, the ones claiming that oil prices drop mean that Venezuela collapsed when oil prices dropped from 27$ to around 40$!

[Zan15]

True, and for comparison when the bloody coup general Chavez took the presidency in early 1999 the oil price was less than 27$.
Currently it is around 40$.

So, the ones claiming that oil prices drop mean that Venezuela collapsed when oil prices dropped from 27$ to around 40$!

Yes but the cost of doing oil business increased dramatically because of his administration, the embargo's, the sanctions, etc etc. Not to mention the extra cost of having to ship oil to very far away places instead of the most profitable market just a jump to the north.


So @ 27 in 1999 = handy profit.

@40 in 2020 = huge losses.

[Xarkan]

True, and for comparison when the bloody coup general Chavez took the presidency in early 1999 the oil price was less than 27$.
Currently it is around 40$.

So, the ones claiming that oil prices drop mean that Venezuela collapsed when oil prices dropped from 27$ to around 40$!

27$ in 1999 would be 41$ in 2020 i think

Perhaps https://smartasset.com/investing/inf...tor#Z2RYau7Ajv can tell you?

[Forogil]

Yes but the cost of doing oil business increased dramatically because of his administration, the embargo's, the sanctions, etc etc. Not to mention the extra cost of having to ship oil to very far away places instead of the most profitable market just a jump to the north.

The first part is right: his administration increased the cost of extracting the oil due to incompetence. I'm not sure why you bring it up.

As for the embargos and sanctions, are you fine with countries that sidesteps the elected parliament, stuff the court with cronies, and don't have free and fair elections?

If so, why are you in favor of impeaching the MF? He didn't do anything worse than the Venezuelan regime (yet).

[Mihalik]

True, and for comparison when the bloody coup general Chavez took the presidency in early 1999 the oil price was less than 27$.
Currently it is around 40$.

So, the ones claiming that oil prices drop mean that Venezuela collapsed when oil prices dropped from 27$ to around 40$!

According to this inflation calculator 27 dollars adjusted to 2020 are 42.33 dollars.

https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/

So the price of oil today is actually 1.5 dollars lower than it was in 1999 inflation adjusted.

Of course the problem in Venezuela goes beyond the price of oil. The problem with Venezuela is that it's a run of the mill standard kleptocracy.

The whole "Bolivarian socialism" shtick is just the ideological excuse for robbing everyone blind. Like trickle down economics are in the US.

Like fucking stop dude. Why is it that every fucking time you airheads talk about socialism its immediately Venezuela? Why not Canada? Or France? Or Germany? Or Austria? Or Sweden? Or Finland?

Let me clue you in... The ten poorest countries in the world...all capitalist.

There are 32 capitalist countries before you get to Venezuela in the poverty ranking. Tho given, that Chavista kleptocrats probably caused Venezuela to rise like 100 positions in the poverty ranking, but socialism isn't the problem there, you can be dirt poor without socialism.

And again. Single payer healthcare, consumer protection, banking regulation, progressive taxation, environmental protection and investment aren't going to turn us into Venezuela, just might make us look more like Germany, France, Canada or any other developed nation.

[Forogil]

27$ in 1999 would be 41$ in 2020 i think

Oh, the oil price collapsed from 41$ to 40$ - and that explains the collapse of Venezuela?

(BTW: It was a bit below 27$ when he got to power; I couldn't find the exact number for February 6.)

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The whole "Bolivarian socialism" shtick is just the ideological excuse for robbing everyone blind. Like trickle down economics are in the US.

Of course. Everyone with a working brain could see through it a long time ago (if they cared about Venezuela).

However, before it collapsed I saw socialists praising it.

Like fucking stop dude. Why is it that every fucking time you airheads talk about socialism its immediately Venezuela? Why not Canada? Or France? Or Germany? Or Austria? Or Sweden? Or Finland?

Because Canada, Germany, Austria, Sweden, Finland don't have socialist, but having something else - primarily social democrats - in power (or at least with a chance of power).

Canada has a prime minister who is liberal; not socialist.
Germany is ruled by CDU/CSU (Conservatives), with SPD (social democrats) as junior partners. The left (who are socialists) is significantly smaller.
Austria is led by a Conservative-Green coalition. The main opposition party are SDP (social democrats), followed by nationalists. No socialists in parliament at the moment it seems.
Sweden is led by Social Democrats-Green coalition. The left (who are socialists) is significantly smaller.
Finland is led by Social Democrats-Green-Left Alliance-Swedish Party (ordered in size). Yes, some socialists in government - as junior-junior partner.
Added: For France, Macron says: "Honesty compels me to say that I am not a socialist." "Je ne suis pas socialiste"

[Mihalik]

Oh, the oil price collapsed from 41$ to 40$ - and that explains the collapse of Venezuela?

(BTW: It was a bit below 27$ when he got to power; I couldn't find the exact number for February 6.)

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Of course. Everyone with a working brain could see through it a long time ago (if they cared about Venezuela).

However, before it collapsed I saw socialists praising it.


Because Canada, Germany, Austria, Sweden, Finland don't have socialist, but having something else - primarily social democrats - in power (or at least with a chance of power).

Canada has a prime minister who is liberal; not socialist.
Germany is ruled by CDU/CSU (Conservatives), with SPD (social democrats) as junior partners. The left (who are socialists) is significantly smaller.
Austria is led by a Conservative-Green coalition. The main opposition party are SDP (social democrats), followed by nationalists. No socialists in parliament at the moment it seems.
Sweden is led by Social Democrats-Green coalition. The left (who are socialists) is significantly smaller.
Finland is led by Social Democrats-Green-Left Alliance-Swedish Party (ordered in size). Yes, some socialists in government - as junior-junior partner.
Added: For France, Macron says: "Honesty compels me to say that I am not a socialist." "Je ne suis pas socialiste"

What the actual fucking fuck are we arguing about then? Who the fuck is for arguing for socialism a la Venezuela here?

It's hella fucking ill defined what you are arguing against. One more fucking time....NOBODY IS ASKING FOR SOCIALISM A LA VENEZUELA. You might find one fucking Twitter tumblerina tankie out there if you scrape the bottom of the barrel, but they aren't anybodies constituency.

Why is Venezuela dragged into every fucking conversation about socialist policies in the US?

[Theodarzna]

So just curious. If the US makes the switch to pure socialism like liberals want how will it be different from other countries who have failed at it?

Socialism in the United States can learn from past mistakes and current countries and engage in a dispassionate analysis of what it is we are trying to build and how to build it.

[Lynarii]

Honestly, I think the OP thinks that if Biden is elected, there will be a bill put forward with just the word "SOCIALISM!!!" on it. Nothing else. And if it's passed, the next day all private property is stolen and half the US starves instantly.

Seriously though, if you want to debate how socialist views would affect the US, you need to ask about specific policies that are being put forward as an actual piece of a party's platform. Because every single body of thought has flaws and looks awful if you just cherry pick all the times that it has failed. Most successful countries realize that the idea of cleaving 100% to a single ideology is absolutely stupid, and instead are constantly sifting through the various ideologies presented and picking out only the parts that they like and discarding the ones they don't. There is no law that says adopting a SOCIALISM!!! policy like universal health care means that you have to declare Marx as your lord and savior until the day you die.

Canada has a prime minister who is liberal; not socialist.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the names of Canadian political parties. BC's Liberal party is right of our Conservative party, and the Federal Liberals are pretty much "we're so committed to the center we have no real thoughts of our own beyond trying to fit in between the other two parties".

[Zan15]

The first part is right: his administration increased the cost of extracting the oil due to incompetence. I'm not sure why you bring it up.

As for the embargos and sanctions, are you fine with countries that sidesteps the elected parliament, stuff the court with cronies, and don't have free and fair elections?

If so, why are you in favor of impeaching the MF? He didn't do anything worse than the Venezuelan regime (yet).

Nope never said i had a problem with it, my problem was blaming "socialism" vs the things that actually caused the problems.


As far as impeachment, he is guilty of crimes that they chose not to impeach him for.

[Fantisal]

So just curious. If the US makes the switch to pure socialism like liberals want how will it be different from other countries who have failed at it?

Like the US is some kind of fucking model state right now. What the fuck is wrong with you retards? Your country is visibly collapsing and this is what you cunts are going on about? I'd much rather live in Venezuela.

[Fantisal]

So just curious. If the US makes the switch to pure socialism like liberals want how will it be different from other countries who have failed at it?

Like the US is some kind of fucking model state. The arrogance of you people....it is not like we can't see your country burning down.

[Forogil]

What the actual fucking fuck are we arguing about then? Who the fuck is for arguing for socialism a la Venezuela here?

I agree, very few (or none) are arguing for socialism a la Venezuela.

However, some(*) are arguing that socialism works - and defends Venezuela, e.g., falsely claiming that the parliament trying to replace the dictator Maduro is a coup and Venezuela failed for some reason unrelated to socialism, making it seem as though they want socialism as in Venezuela - except working this time.

* Including DSA in the US - a party that left Socialist International because it was too capitalist, when European parties left it because it was too cosy with authoritarian regimes.

Simple put if you don't want politics like in Venezuela: Stop defending Venezuela, and Bolivarianism!

Why is Venezuela dragged into every fucking conversation about socialist policies in the US?

Because many on the right, and some on the left call it socialism, and some on the left join clearly socialist organizations.

One underlying reason is that the US (and the UK) has non-proportional voting (in the US due to how the constitution gives the states the power to allocate votes) - and thus instead of having different parties for different views (as in many countries with proportional systems) there are naturally few "big tents" parties. (At least on the left - I don't know the reason for Trumpism.)

The democrats thus go from slightly progressive voices to socialists - and beyond, and the voting system mean that democrats cannot distance themselves too much from socialists, because that might alienate key voters.

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Nope never said i had a problem with it, my problem was blaming "socialism" vs the things that actually caused the problems.

Socialism mean state/people/etc taking control of means of production, and the replacements were incompetent (since actually managing a big company isn't as easy as some think), causing many of the problems - even when the oil price was 100$.

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There is no law that says adopting a SOCIALISM!!! policy like universal health care means that you have to declare Marx as your lord and savior until the day you die.

Especially considering that it isn't Marx idea.

The only health-issue in the communist manifesto is to destroy unhealthy dwellings; just before equal inheritance of children born in and out of wedlock. (It also includes compulsory education, but others had that about two thousand years earlier.)

[Daelak]

None of the economically significant Western countries is socialist, they all are capitalist with a varying degree of government control over a narrow range of select economic sectors combined with a varying degree of wealth redistribution via taxes.

The US' interest in socialism is inverse to its interest in self determination and self reliance. With the US having an accelerating loss of both, its interest in socialistic views will continue to increase.

Such willfull ignorance in this statement. Take health insurance for example; no one who pays premiums for private health insurance is "self reliant". They are part of the total actuarial pool to smooth volatility (price change) and at-risk (higher volatility spikes). Basic risk assessment (calculus) shows that adding the maximum amount of persons from young to old, controls cost and provides a better baseline of care.

No politics, no lies, just mathematics.

You are stating that we man has always been an island, reality states that we have never been, youre just propagating a fiction by people who have the most to lose from the status quo.

[Auxora]

There won't be socialism in the US, but the fear mongering that there will be is what the far-right uses to get support for their radical ideas. The strategy is scare people into thinking the alternative is so bad (even if it's untrue and will never, ever happen), so they think your alternative (a racist, bigoted, authoritarian government where democracy doesn't exist anymore) is the only option.

It's done with this socialism scare against the Democratic party, against Biden, it is the reasoning for the border wall, for immigration control, etc. It's also the same reason another autocratic leader in Belarus this week has been falsely claiming that NATO is about to nuke or invade Belarus. Fear the public into into thinking you are the only hope so they go along with totalitarian and illegal behavior. Ironically the people instilling this fear are actually the ones destroying Democracy themselves, not who they are scaring you of. Hitler did that in Germany, and in the end he was the one that left the country in ruins.

[Thee ANCOM]

Such willfull ignorance in this statement. Take health insurance for example; no one who pays premiums for private health insurance is "self reliant". They are part of the total actuarial pool to smooth volatility (price change) and at-risk (higher volatility spikes). Basic risk assessment (calculus) shows that adding the maximum amount of persons from young to old, controls cost and provides a better baseline of care.

No politics, no lies, just mathematics.

You are stating that we man has always been an island, reality states that we have never been, youre just propagating a fiction by people who have the most to lose from the status quo.

"self determination" to libertarians boils down to you being self determined to be a master (employer) or a serf (employee).

[Doctor Amadeus]

First off socialism in any form in the U.S is dead. Anything like it will operate the way it always has. The fear that anything closely resembling what we already have is worse is bullshit.

[Thee ANCOM]

First off socialism in any form in the U.S is dead.

unless you're a billionaire or a corporation.