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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by the game View Post
    So just curious. If the US makes the switch to pure socialism like liberals want how will it be different from other countries who have failed at it?
    Like the US is some kind of fucking model state. The arrogance of you people....it is not like we can't see your country burning down.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    What the actual fucking fuck are we arguing about then? Who the fuck is for arguing for socialism a la Venezuela here?
    I agree, very few (or none) are arguing for socialism a la Venezuela.

    However, some(*) are arguing that socialism works - and defends Venezuela, e.g., falsely claiming that the parliament trying to replace the dictator Maduro is a coup and Venezuela failed for some reason unrelated to socialism, making it seem as though they want socialism as in Venezuela - except working this time.

    * Including DSA in the US - a party that left Socialist International because it was too capitalist, when European parties left it because it was too cosy with authoritarian regimes.

    Simple put if you don't want politics like in Venezuela: Stop defending Venezuela, and Bolivarianism!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Why is Venezuela dragged into every fucking conversation about socialist policies in the US?
    Because many on the right, and some on the left call it socialism, and some on the left join clearly socialist organizations.

    One underlying reason is that the US (and the UK) has non-proportional voting (in the US due to how the constitution gives the states the power to allocate votes) - and thus instead of having different parties for different views (as in many countries with proportional systems) there are naturally few "big tents" parties. (At least on the left - I don't know the reason for Trumpism.)

    The democrats thus go from slightly progressive voices to socialists - and beyond, and the voting system mean that democrats cannot distance themselves too much from socialists, because that might alienate key voters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    Nope never said i had a problem with it, my problem was blaming "socialism" vs the things that actually caused the problems.
    Socialism mean state/people/etc taking control of means of production, and the replacements were incompetent (since actually managing a big company isn't as easy as some think), causing many of the problems - even when the oil price was 100$.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynarii View Post
    There is no law that says adopting a SOCIALISM!!! policy like universal health care means that you have to declare Marx as your lord and savior until the day you die.
    Especially considering that it isn't Marx idea.

    The only health-issue in the communist manifesto is to destroy unhealthy dwellings; just before equal inheritance of children born in and out of wedlock. (It also includes compulsory education, but others had that about two thousand years earlier.)
    Last edited by Forogil; 2020-08-29 at 05:09 PM.

  3. #103
    The Insane Daelak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    None of the economically significant Western countries is socialist, they all are capitalist with a varying degree of government control over a narrow range of select economic sectors combined with a varying degree of wealth redistribution via taxes.

    The US' interest in socialism is inverse to its interest in self determination and self reliance. With the US having an accelerating loss of both, its interest in socialistic views will continue to increase.
    Such willfull ignorance in this statement. Take health insurance for example; no one who pays premiums for private health insurance is "self reliant". They are part of the total actuarial pool to smooth volatility (price change) and at-risk (higher volatility spikes). Basic risk assessment (calculus) shows that adding the maximum amount of persons from young to old, controls cost and provides a better baseline of care.

    No politics, no lies, just mathematics.

    You are stating that we man has always been an island, reality states that we have never been, youre just propagating a fiction by people who have the most to lose from the status quo.
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  4. #104
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    There won't be socialism in the US, but the fear mongering that there will be is what the far-right uses to get support for their radical ideas. The strategy is scare people into thinking the alternative is so bad (even if it's untrue and will never, ever happen), so they think your alternative (a racist, bigoted, authoritarian government where democracy doesn't exist anymore) is the only option.

    It's done with this socialism scare against the Democratic party, against Biden, it is the reasoning for the border wall, for immigration control, etc. It's also the same reason another autocratic leader in Belarus this week has been falsely claiming that NATO is about to nuke or invade Belarus. Fear the public into into thinking you are the only hope so they go along with totalitarian and illegal behavior. Ironically the people instilling this fear are actually the ones destroying Democracy themselves, not who they are scaring you of. Hitler did that in Germany, and in the end he was the one that left the country in ruins.

  5. #105
    Banned Thee ANCOM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    Such willfull ignorance in this statement. Take health insurance for example; no one who pays premiums for private health insurance is "self reliant". They are part of the total actuarial pool to smooth volatility (price change) and at-risk (higher volatility spikes). Basic risk assessment (calculus) shows that adding the maximum amount of persons from young to old, controls cost and provides a better baseline of care.

    No politics, no lies, just mathematics.

    You are stating that we man has always been an island, reality states that we have never been, youre just propagating a fiction by people who have the most to lose from the status quo.
    "self determination" to libertarians boils down to you being self determined to be a master (employer) or a serf (employee).

  6. #106
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    First off socialism in any form in the U.S is dead. Anything like it will operate the way it always has. The fear that anything closely resembling what we already have is worse is bullshit.
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  7. #107
    Banned Thee ANCOM's Avatar
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    First off socialism in any form in the U.S is dead.
    unless you're a billionaire or a corporation.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    First off socialism in any form in the U.S is dead. Anything like it will operate the way it always has. The fear that anything closely resembling what we already have is worse is bullshit.
    unless you are +65 or a vet...then you get a whole lot of socialism thanks to the other 225 million people in this country.
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  9. #109
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    Did you know that is total bullshit ? Interesting propaganda though.

    An ongoing battle between the prime minister and the president amid a tanking economy has left many Romanians longing for a return to communism because they think the democratic and free-market reforms of the past two decades have failed.
    The reality is more like democratic and free market reforms have failed because of the deep corruption that still infests the country. Vestiges of communist scum that used to have power and still infiltrate the state on all levels. That's the gift of communism that keeps on giving and the story that repeats everywhere else. Cancerous corruption that ruins the country.

  10. #110
    Banned Thee ANCOM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Did you know that is total bullshit ? Interesting propaganda though.



    The reality is more like democratic and free market reforms have failed because of the deep corruption that still infests the country. Vestiges of communist scum that used to have power and still infiltrate the state on all levels. That's the gift of communism that keeps on giving and the story that repeats everywhere else. Cancerous corruption that ruins the country.
    this is nothing but an argument that unaddressed corruption is bad regardless of the sytem it's in.

  11. #111
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Socialist policies are employed everywhere in the first world with great success, free education, single payer healthcare, unemployment benefits, you name it.

    Canada, Germany, France, UK, Norway, Sweden, Denmark...
    That doesn't seem to be enough for the neo commie people. You must seize the means of reproduction!

  12. #112
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    That doesn't seem to be enough for the neo commie people. You must seize the means of reproduction!
    I find this discourse about Socialism to be fascinating. Like, every single hiccup, fuck up, fart and short coming in any Socialist State is instantly an indictment of Marx, people suddenly become hyper attuned to systemic processes and blaming a system for anything. But in America or any Capitalist State, any and all bad things suddenly are matters of personal responsibility and individual choice.

    Stalin sends people to the gulag and kills a lot of people or Mao decides to wipe out a bird species and its suddenly as if they conjured Marx from beyond the grave with a ouija board and Marx told them to do it. But if a cop shoots someone seven times in the back, its either because black people are just always making bad choices and responsible for their fate, or cops are just riddled/infected with racist pathologies and are responsible personally and must be punished. This is a very interesting selective decision to hyper assign culpability for failure to a system when its an enemy, but internal problems always come down to bad people and their tainted souls one way or another.
    Last edited by Theodarzna; 2020-08-30 at 03:15 PM.
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  13. #113
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thee ANCOM View Post
    this is nothing but an argument that unaddressed corruption is bad regardless of the sytem it's in.
    Oh look some one else to likes to throw under a rug the catastrophe caused by communism. It was just unaddressed corruption right?

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Oh look some one else to likes to throw under a rug the catastrophe caused by communism. It was just unaddressed corruption right?
    what are you even talking about? do you honestly think corruption is unique to "communism" or something? clearly that's not true given you admit it exists outside of it.

  15. #115
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    First off socialism in any form in the U.S is dead. Anything like it will operate the way it always has. The fear that anything closely resembling what we already have is worse is bullshit.
    Not really, keep in mind I am not pro capitalism either, I mean I am a capitalist. But no sorry the life I have and afford has had nothing to do with socialism at all, that is NOT to say I did it all on my own because I didn't.

    I grew up poor as fuck, and if it wasn't for a church friend who was a mentor to me, I wouldn't have had many of the opportunities that I would EARN. That's the key though, I was given the opportunity to EARN, I wasn't given.

    Non of that was due to socialism.


    Now I think it would be more accurate to say that the portions of socialism we all enjoy over all are because of the capitalism that feeds it and allows for it, but we don't now live in socialism and never have.

    Trust me I do realize that parts of socialism we use aren't bad, but the problem is saying socialism works, is the same as saying capitalism is working. And it isn't.


    The difference between the two is Capitalism has worked, Socialism has not. Although Capitalism is now failing and IF capitalism falls the socialism you are suggesting would go along with it.

    If Capitalism can be saved or made to work better, then some components you mentioned as socialism are needed.

    Social Security isn't the the right thing to do it's the smartest thing to do.

    Medicare 4 All or a Public Option aren't just the smartest Ideas, they are going to be required.

    Universal Basic Income isn't just a good idea, it is also going to be a must.



    You don't have to sell these things, the sell themselves to anybody who knows what is going on. I however still wouldn't say that socialism or capitalism.


    I would argue the bold to my dying breath, not sure we are ready to make that change yet, but then again I don't think it will matter if we are ready, society must evolve.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  16. #116
    [QUOTE=Theodarzna;52606853]

    EDIT: I read the last paragraph wrong.

  17. #117
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post

    EDIT: I read the last paragraph wrong.
    S'all good, sometimes I type faster than I think and am happy to clarify anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    Tankie Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics / Socialism with My Chemical Romance characteristics. Caramelldansen Nationalism. Aimee Terese was right about Warren. Anti-HR Aktion. Bashar Al-Assad's runescape gf.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    S'all good, sometimes I type faster than I think and am happy to clarify anything.
    It's all good, I read it as a both sides thing of people complaining about the other side, but the examples given are typical complaints of one side.. But that wasn't the point. It was more of a generalization of bad system over there vs bad people over here.

  19. #119
    The Insane Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    Such willfull ignorance in this statement. Take health insurance for example; no one who pays premiums for private health insurance is "self reliant". They are part of the total actuarial pool to smooth volatility (price change) and at-risk (higher volatility spikes). Basic risk assessment (calculus) shows that adding the maximum amount of persons from young to old, controls cost and provides a better baseline of care.

    No politics, no lies, just mathematics.

    You are stating that we man has always been an island, reality states that we have never been, youre just propagating a fiction by people who have the most to lose from the status quo.
    Show me where in my statement I made any of the absolutes you are accusing me of making? Do you not understand that self reliance and self determination are not binary concepts? That one can reduce or increase either without reaching the extremes?

    Math is of little concern to most people, as is logic in general. Humans tend to be ruled by emotion.
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  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by the game View Post
    So just curious. If the US makes the switch to pure socialism like liberals want how will it be different from other countries who have failed at it?
    Well, the US is unlikely to impose sanctions or engineer a coup against itself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Did you know that is total bullshit ? Interesting propaganda though.



    The reality is more like democratic and free market reforms have failed because of the deep corruption that still infests the country. Vestiges of communist scum that used to have power and still infiltrate the state on all levels. That's the gift of communism that keeps on giving and the story that repeats everywhere else. Cancerous corruption that ruins the country.
    "Capitalism cannot fail. It can only be failed."
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