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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Then you're misrepresenting what the argument for primitive communism was about, since it was explicitly aimed at pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer groups. The emergence of herding and agriculture is connected with the emergence of class systems.
    I'm not misrepresenting anything, I'm first stating that agriculture with class systems happened thousand of years ago refuting the post I responded to:
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    Thousands of years ago, we all live in a communism society.
    Then continuing to say that primitive communism wasn't wide-spread among hunter-gathers (despite some ideological ideas), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer
    Mutual exchange and sharing of resources (i.e., meat gained from hunting) are important in the economic systems of hunter-gatherer societies. Therefore, these societies can be described as based on a "gift economy."

    Thus while the researchers agreed that hunter-gatherers were more egalitarian than modern societies, prior characterisations of them living in a state of egalitarian primitive communism were inaccurate and misleading.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This has nothing to do with the subject.
    Violence matters - as that shatters the illusion of an early paradise.

  2. #142
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    I'm not misrepresenting anything, I'm first stating that agriculture with class systems happened thousand of years ago refuting the post I responded to:
    That's quibbling about how many thousands, which they didn't specify.

    30,000 years ago is "thousands" just as much as 10,000 is.

    Then continuing to say that primitive communism wasn't wide-spread among hunter-gathers (despite some ideological ideas), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer
    You're pulling all your argument from citing a single paper that doesn't even really support your conclusion, since the idea of perfect equality (which the paper argues against) isn't a necessary maxim for primitive communism in the first place.

    The whole leadup to the last bit of that section you're quoting from is in direct contradiction to your claims. You're just skipping all that, to cherry-pick some bits of one single paper out of context.

    Violence matters - as that shatters the illusion of an early paradise.
    Another straw man, since nobody argued this was a "paradise".

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's quibbling about how many thousands, which they didn't specify.
    So many words to say that you didn't read the post earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're pulling all your argument from citing a single paper that doesn't even really support your conclusion, since the idea of perfect equality (which the paper argues against) isn't a necessary maxim for primitive communism in the first place.
    Science develops, and it doesn't support the idea of primitive communism either, but more gift-based economy which differs in how freeloaders are handled (and people in the local tribe are generally kin as well).

    And as previously stated the conclusion was that hunter-gather societies were about as egalitarian as the currently most egalitarian capitalistic countries - where people currently don't starve for the want of food.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Another straw man, since nobody argued this was a "paradise".
    It was implied that the society was better than what we currently have.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Yes, it absolutely does. The target audience is always as much as you can get. The limit of marketing reach, is either a success or failure, based on the scope. How can you claim both, that my example of estate tax vs death tax, is either illogical or has a limited scope?
    The market segment that is both logically motivated and needs a targeted marketing effort to convince them of your superior position/product is tiny, and not likely to have a good ROI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    The answer is simple: global revolution.
    Marxist revolutions tends to only lead to a new crop of dictators and little to no real improvement for the proletariat.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The market segment that is both logically motivated and needs a targeted marketing effort to convince them of your superior position/product is tiny, and not likely to have a good ROI.
    No, this isn’t true. Who do you think wins in a corporate argument, a developer or marketing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Marxist revolutions tends to only lead to a new crop of dictators and little to no real improvement for the proletariat.
    You don’t see any difference between industry during Marx and after? You don’t see any influence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    The answer is simple: global revolution.
    Children... I have worked as a technical lead, leading teams in Mumbai, Dublin, Beijing and Warsaw. Some of the guys flying over for training, ended up staying in US on work visas. They all gave the same reason, to why they won’t bring their kids to US with them... Education and consumerism... they fucking loved it her, but they didn’t trust to have their kids raised here.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spare...poil_the_child
    Last edited by Felya; 2020-09-07 at 01:04 AM.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  6. #146
    The Insane Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    No, this isn’t true. Who do you think wins in a corporate argument, a developer or marketing?

    - - - Updated - - -



    You don’t see any difference between industry during Marx and after? You don’t see any influence?

    Depends if the corporation is interested in reality or fantasy. Marketing often sells customers and the board room the moon without bothering to ask engineering if it is even possible, then blame the engineers when it fails. I have seen this time and time and time again. The main purpose of marketing is to separate fools from their money.

    I see that China's industry did better under Capitalism than Maoism.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  7. #147
    The Insane Daelak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Show me where in my statement I made any of the absolutes you are accusing me of making? Do you not understand that self reliance and self determination are not binary concepts? That one can reduce or increase either without reaching the extremes?

    Math is of little concern to most people, as is logic in general. Humans tend to be ruled by emotion.
    You were stating that self reliance is inversely related to the growing acceptance of "socialism". I used an example of the current healthcare insurance market that shows there is no such thing as self-reliance. It's a fiction, it doesn't exist, it's merely a rhetorical tool used by conservatives to keep the status quo at the expense of better outcomes.
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    There is a problem, but I know just banning guns will fix the problem.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    You were stating that self reliance is inversely related to the growing acceptance of "socialism". I used an example of the current healthcare insurance market that shows there is no such thing as self-reliance. It's a fiction, it doesn't exist, it's merely a rhetorical tool used by conservatives to keep the status quo at the expense of better outcomes.
    Self reliance is no more or no less fictional than socialism. Neither is readily present in its pure form, but both do exist. For instance, I am more self reliant than most because I do not need a mechanic to fix my car, a carpenter, plumber, or electrician to build a house, anyone to fix my computers or other electronics, etc.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by the game View Post
    So just curious. If the US makes the switch to pure socialism like liberals want how will it be different from other countries who have failed at it?
    I don't think America will ever be capable of achieving any form of socialism for two reasons.

    1. America is too large a country to be run with the level of federal control most types of socialism would require.

    2. Those advocating it in America are to dogmatic to make the nessesary Inovations to make a new form of socialism geared to America.

    For socialism of the kind I see the American far left advocating to work it would need to be a decentralised state based version that caters for the individual need of each state with a common sharing of resources that is mutual and non exploitove of any other state or peoples in the union.

    And I don't belive America has the ability both culturally or intellectually to make socialism work in any way within there cultural and national constitutional framework.

    And honestly I don't think they deserve to have any of the good parts of socialism, I am no socialist im one nation but I recognise there are many good parts and ideas in socialism like free health care that I'm glad my country adopted without going all the way down the the road. But I don't think America deserves anything like that, the resent behaviour of Americans on both side of there politics is so utterly shameful that by the virtue of them being the world super power it brings shame on our whole planet, they are acting like children and animals and whilst that continues you cannot expect to conduct them selves with the level of adultnes needed to bring about good change in there nation...

    And I'm sorry if that upsets a few people but I think it's high time it was sed, America you are bringing shame on your selves with the actions we are witnessing in your nation, and you bring embarisment on your allies and your ancestors at a time when we need strength to meet the some of the tuffest challenges the west and the World has faced since Ww2, sort your selves out, you can talk about socialism, the pros and cons after you stop shooting and choking each other, if you can't even unite as a people how do you expect to have a system the requires unity to function?
    Last edited by Monster Hunter; 2020-09-08 at 02:24 AM.

  10. #150
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Self reliance is no more or no less fictional than socialism. Neither is readily present in its pure form, but both do exist. For instance, I am more self reliant than most because I do not need a mechanic to fix my car, a carpenter, plumber, or electrician to build a house, anyone to fix my computers or other electronics, etc.
    You're still not self-reliant.

    Did you machine those car parts yourself, from designs you made up yourself?
    Did you build your own tools and building materials, and teach yourself how to do so yourself, for building that house?
    Did you build your computer from raw materials?

    We could extend this to farming your own food, and so forth, too.

    There isn't a one of us who's "self-reliant". We're all part of a society, and wholly reliant upon it. "Self reliance" is a myth.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're still not self-reliant.

    Did you machine those car parts yourself, from designs you made up yourself?
    Did you build your own tools and building materials, and teach yourself how to do so yourself, for building that house?
    Did you build your computer from raw materials?

    We could extend this to farming your own food, and so forth, too.

    There isn't a one of us who's "self-reliant". We're all part of a society, and wholly reliant upon it. "Self reliance" is a myth.
    Again, it is a matter of degree. I can machine my own parts if I chose to do so. I can build my own tools and building materials if needed. No I cannot make an IC, but I can build a computer from discrete parts. I could grow my own food, fish, hunt, forage, etc if needed. I am at least less helpless than most.

    Society is based on giving up individual capability for group capability. People do not live at either extreme though, its a sliding scale.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  12. #152
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Depends if the corporation is interested in reality or fantasy.
    I assure you... not fantasy... like 11 PM changes, to content going live at midnight. Regularly... for a fucking em dash, instead of a normal one... in 114 languages... (love that job... watching bitches crumble under pressure... not as fun as I want to say it was...)

    Marketing often sells customers and the board room the moon without bothering to ask engineering if it is even possible, then blame the engineers when it fails. I have seen this time and time and time again. The main purpose of marketing is to separate fools from their money.
    Another way to say this... I am right... marketing does win...

    I see that China's industry did better under Capitalism than Maoism.
    If you call China capitalism, than... you bet....
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  13. #153
    The Insane Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I assure you... not fantasy... like 11 PM changes, to content going live at midnight. Regularly... for a fucking em dash, instead of a normal one... in 114 languages... (love that job... watching bitches crumble under pressure... not as fun as I want to say it was...)



    Another way to say this... I am right... marketing does win...



    If you call China capitalism, than... you bet....
    Sounds like piss poor planning on the company's part, or bad quality control.

    Marketing wins by using emotion to manipulate, I never said the hand full of people doing the marketing are stupid.

    China's economy is closer to Capitalism than Maoism, though it is swinging back.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  14. #154
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Sounds like piss poor planning on the company's part, or bad quality control.
    No, marketing wins... simple as that... the only thing that beats marketing, is legal.

    Marketing wins by using emotion to manipulate, I never said the hand full of people doing the marketing are stupid.
    Than what are you saying? The audience is the same...

    China's economy is closer to Capitalism than Maoism, though it is swinging back.
    Yes, but if you call that capitalism, that’s a significant stretch.
    As above, so below.
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracle of the One Thing.

  15. #155
    The Insane Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    No, marketing wins... simple as that... the only thing that beats marketing, is legal.



    Than what are you saying? The audience is the same...



    Yes, but if you call that capitalism, that’s a significant stretch.

    I am saying marketing wins because it plays to peoples' emotions, not to their logic. That is not the same as saying there is no logic in marketing.

    I call it profit driven.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's quibbling about how many thousands, which they didn't specify.

    30,000 years ago is "thousands" just as much as 10,000 is.



    You're pulling all your argument from citing a single paper that doesn't even really support your conclusion, since the idea of perfect equality (which the paper argues against) isn't a necessary maxim for primitive communism in the first place.

    The whole leadup to the last bit of that section you're quoting from is in direct contradiction to your claims. You're just skipping all that, to cherry-pick some bits of one single paper out of context.



    Another straw man, since nobody argued this was a "paradise".
    Wait.... You actualy belive in the whole virtuous caveman crap?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    No, marketing wins... simple as that... the only thing that beats marketing, is legal.



    Than what are you saying? The audience is the same...



    Yes, but if you call that capitalism, that’s a significant stretch.
    China if we are going to label its system, most closely matches Italian facism in both its economic, political and social organisation.

    But then the dividing line between Mussolini, Stalin and Mao had always been, all 3 would have sold there mothers for an ounce of power if needed.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by gfffdfrterer View Post
    Tuffest? Seriously? Do you actually have schools up there in whippetland?
    Clearly better ones than you do. Couldn't even see that cliff you were running off last election could ya sock boy

    How's old jezzah doing? Has he stopped crying yet and blaming every one else but himself?

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by gfffdfrterer View Post
    I'm sure he's upset about that monstrous liberal democrat landslide you were predicting. Go back to your real ale and pigeons you docile fuckwit.
    well he didn't lose because of the conservatives 1% vote share rise now did he
    but then i guess its hard being a sock, all that cotten in your brain.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by gfffdfrterer View Post
    Sorry, was I too tuff on you? Maybe you should relax with a pork scratching or something.
    doesn't make sense in the context considering you have been nothing but wrong on everything in every thread you come into really.

    you cant be tuff on anything when you're political opinions are irrelevant for at least a decade now

    oh how i fondly remember you going off at length about how you don't need the working class and don't need those "little Englanders" to win the election, and how you can safely insult us and attack us. well look at the labour party now, broken and fallen to its lowest level in a generation. and guess what ?



    I TOLD YOU SO HAHAHAHA
    Last edited by Monster Hunter; 2020-09-08 at 11:21 AM.

  20. #160
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    Wait.... You actualy belive in the whole virtuous caveman crap?
    There's no "virtuous" component to it. Just the idea that when every day is a struggle for survival, cooperation was more advantageous than competition with everyone in your tribal group.

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