How will socialism in the US be different from other failed attempts at socialism?

[Kellhound]

You were stating that self reliance is inversely related to the growing acceptance of "socialism". I used an example of the current healthcare insurance market that shows there is no such thing as self-reliance. It's a fiction, it doesn't exist, it's merely a rhetorical tool used by conservatives to keep the status quo at the expense of better outcomes.

Self reliance is no more or no less fictional than socialism. Neither is readily present in its pure form, but both do exist. For instance, I am more self reliant than most because I do not need a mechanic to fix my car, a carpenter, plumber, or electrician to build a house, anyone to fix my computers or other electronics, etc.

[Monster Hunter]

So just curious. If the US makes the switch to pure socialism like liberals want how will it be different from other countries who have failed at it?

I don't think America will ever be capable of achieving any form of socialism for two reasons.

1. America is too large a country to be run with the level of federal control most types of socialism would require.

2. Those advocating it in America are to dogmatic to make the nessesary Inovations to make a new form of socialism geared to America.

For socialism of the kind I see the American far left advocating to work it would need to be a decentralised state based version that caters for the individual need of each state with a common sharing of resources that is mutual and non exploitove of any other state or peoples in the union.

And I don't belive America has the ability both culturally or intellectually to make socialism work in any way within there cultural and national constitutional framework.

And honestly I don't think they deserve to have any of the good parts of socialism, I am no socialist im one nation but I recognise there are many good parts and ideas in socialism like free health care that I'm glad my country adopted without going all the way down the the road. But I don't think America deserves anything like that, the resent behaviour of Americans on both side of there politics is so utterly shameful that by the virtue of them being the world super power it brings shame on our whole planet, they are acting like children and animals and whilst that continues you cannot expect to conduct them selves with the level of adultnes needed to bring about good change in there nation...

And I'm sorry if that upsets a few people but I think it's high time it was sed, America you are bringing shame on your selves with the actions we are witnessing in your nation, and you bring embarisment on your allies and your ancestors at a time when we need strength to meet the some of the tuffest challenges the west and the World has faced since Ww2, sort your selves out, you can talk about socialism, the pros and cons after you stop shooting and choking each other, if you can't even unite as a people how do you expect to have a system the requires unity to function?

[Endus]

Self reliance is no more or no less fictional than socialism. Neither is readily present in its pure form, but both do exist. For instance, I am more self reliant than most because I do not need a mechanic to fix my car, a carpenter, plumber, or electrician to build a house, anyone to fix my computers or other electronics, etc.

You're still not self-reliant.

Did you machine those car parts yourself, from designs you made up yourself?
Did you build your own tools and building materials, and teach yourself how to do so yourself, for building that house?
Did you build your computer from raw materials?

We could extend this to farming your own food, and so forth, too.

There isn't a one of us who's "self-reliant". We're all part of a society, and wholly reliant upon it. "Self reliance" is a myth.

[Kellhound]

You're still not self-reliant.

Did you machine those car parts yourself, from designs you made up yourself?
Did you build your own tools and building materials, and teach yourself how to do so yourself, for building that house?
Did you build your computer from raw materials?

We could extend this to farming your own food, and so forth, too.

There isn't a one of us who's "self-reliant". We're all part of a society, and wholly reliant upon it. "Self reliance" is a myth.

Again, it is a matter of degree. I can machine my own parts if I chose to do so. I can build my own tools and building materials if needed. No I cannot make an IC, but I can build a computer from discrete parts. I could grow my own food, fish, hunt, forage, etc if needed. I am at least less helpless than most.

Society is based on giving up individual capability for group capability. People do not live at either extreme though, its a sliding scale.

[Felya]

Depends if the corporation is interested in reality or fantasy.

I assure you... not fantasy... like 11 PM changes, to content going live at midnight. Regularly... for a fucking em dash, instead of a normal one... in 114 languages... (love that job... watching bitches crumble under pressure... not as fun as I want to say it was...)

Marketing often sells customers and the board room the moon without bothering to ask engineering if it is even possible, then blame the engineers when it fails. I have seen this time and time and time again. The main purpose of marketing is to separate fools from their money.

Another way to say this... I am right... marketing does win...

I see that China's industry did better under Capitalism than Maoism.

If you call China capitalism, than... you bet....

[Kellhound]

I assure you... not fantasy... like 11 PM changes, to content going live at midnight. Regularly... for a fucking em dash, instead of a normal one... in 114 languages... (love that job... watching bitches crumble under pressure... not as fun as I want to say it was...)



Another way to say this... I am right... marketing does win...



If you call China capitalism, than... you bet....

Sounds like piss poor planning on the company's part, or bad quality control.

Marketing wins by using emotion to manipulate, I never said the hand full of people doing the marketing are stupid.

China's economy is closer to Capitalism than Maoism, though it is swinging back.

[Felya]

Sounds like piss poor planning on the company's part, or bad quality control.

No, marketing wins... simple as that... the only thing that beats marketing, is legal.

Marketing wins by using emotion to manipulate, I never said the hand full of people doing the marketing are stupid.

Than what are you saying? The audience is the same...

China's economy is closer to Capitalism than Maoism, though it is swinging back.

Yes, but if you call that capitalism, that’s a significant stretch.

[Kellhound]

No, marketing wins... simple as that... the only thing that beats marketing, is legal.



Than what are you saying? The audience is the same...



Yes, but if you call that capitalism, that’s a significant stretch.

I am saying marketing wins because it plays to peoples' emotions, not to their logic. That is not the same as saying there is no logic in marketing.

I call it profit driven.

[Monster Hunter]

That's quibbling about how many thousands, which they didn't specify.

30,000 years ago is "thousands" just as much as 10,000 is.



You're pulling all your argument from citing a single paper that doesn't even really support your conclusion, since the idea of perfect equality (which the paper argues against) isn't a necessary maxim for primitive communism in the first place.

The whole leadup to the last bit of that section you're quoting from is in direct contradiction to your claims. You're just skipping all that, to cherry-pick some bits of one single paper out of context.



Another straw man, since nobody argued this was a "paradise".

Wait.... You actualy belive in the whole virtuous caveman crap?

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No, marketing wins... simple as that... the only thing that beats marketing, is legal.



Than what are you saying? The audience is the same...



Yes, but if you call that capitalism, that’s a significant stretch.

China if we are going to label its system, most closely matches Italian facism in both its economic, political and social organisation.

But then the dividing line between Mussolini, Stalin and Mao had always been, all 3 would have sold there mothers for an ounce of power if needed.

[Monster Hunter]

Tuffest? Seriously? Do you actually have schools up there in whippetland?

Clearly better ones than you do. Couldn't even see that cliff you were running off last election could ya sock boy

How's old jezzah doing? Has he stopped crying yet and blaming every one else but himself?

[Monster Hunter]

I'm sure he's upset about that monstrous liberal democrat landslide you were predicting. Go back to your real ale and pigeons you docile fuckwit.

well he didn't lose because of the conservatives 1% vote share rise now did he
but then i guess its hard being a sock, all that cotten in your brain.

[Monster Hunter]

Sorry, was I too tuff on you? Maybe you should relax with a pork scratching or something.

doesn't make sense in the context considering you have been nothing but wrong on everything in every thread you come into really.

you cant be tuff on anything when you're political opinions are irrelevant for at least a decade now

oh how i fondly remember you going off at length about how you don't need the working class and don't need those "little Englanders" to win the election, and how you can safely insult us and attack us. well look at the labour party now, broken and fallen to its lowest level in a generation. and guess what ?



I TOLD YOU SO HAHAHAHA

[Endus]

Wait.... You actualy belive in the whole virtuous caveman crap?

There's no "virtuous" component to it. Just the idea that when every day is a struggle for survival, cooperation was more advantageous than competition with everyone in your tribal group.

[Felya]

Wait.... You actualy belive in the whole virtuous caveman crap?

Not virtuous, survival...

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There's no "virtuous" component to it. Just the idea that when every day is a struggle for survival, cooperation was more advantageous than competition with everyone in your tribal group.

It’s interesting that we have both, the misnomer about alpha pack leaders, along side a misnomer about the antisocial human.

[Endus]

It’s interesting that we have both, the misnomer about alpha pack leaders, along side a misnomer about the antisocial human.

Honestly, it's kind of fucking hilarious that a single article about wolf pack dynamics has seen people try and transplant those patterns onto human conduct, when even the author of that article has retracted it entirely saying they didn't notice that it was just parent/child dynamics in the first place, so even with wolves it doesn't exist.

If you're talking about alpha/beta/omegas in terms of human conduct, you're a ridiculous human being.

[Monster Hunter]

Not virtuous, survival...

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It’s interesting that we have both, the misnomer about alpha pack leaders, along side a misnomer about the antisocial human.

The easiest way to enforce cooperation is through dominance, nearly every other pack based animal has some form of class structure, from hyenas to lions to our closest relatives in chimps and gorilla's.

The idea we were some how different is based on some very flimsy evidence and mostly wishful thinking.

Either way it's meaningless to the debate on modern socialism and communism, as unless there slme great apocoloypse we won't be anything like those hunter gatherers again.

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There's no "virtuous" component to it. Just the idea that when every day is a struggle for survival, cooperation was more advantageous than competition with everyone in your tribal group.

And the easiest way to ensure co-operation is through force.

Though the whole alpha beta gama stuff is crap, if you study any group of chimps you find they exhibit the same battles over internal dominance surrounding right to food and mating as well as sexual dimorphic behaviours along with sub social groups including clicks.

Organising is key to servival. Co-operation is key. But that dosn't make is socialism or communism and that dosnt mean it wasn't forced.

This virtuous cave man shit is as bad as the original alpha beta bollocks in tainting the view of pre civilisation humans, and it dosnt even serve any modern political purpose as we arn't hunter gstheres so any observations from then even if true are mute.

The closest we belive to very early human society is that of current chimps and this is what is said of them.

Chimpanzee communities
Chimpanzees search for food communally when foraging or hunting prey. A group of males will chase, corner, and kill small monkeys for meat.7 Groups will sit together for hours, “fishing” termite mounds or enjoying the ripened fruits of trees.9

Chimpanzees acknowledge and respect a hierarchy within their groups. Dominance relationships are influenced by alliances, and coalitions are formed by males—chimpanzee politics. They will attack trespassing males from another territory to defend their own.7

Social groups consist of a dominant male, adult females and subordinate males and juveniles.7 As they reach maturity, some younger males challenge the dominance of the leader. Groups consist of several generations.

https://www.releasechimps.org/chimpa...panzee-society

There isn't any set thing like the stupid alpha/beta/gama

But there is a heirachy, crossing it is often terminal, there is alliances and politics inside chimp society and there is also alot of murder.

[Endus]

And the easiest way to ensure co-operation is through force.

That isn't cooperation to begin with.

Though the whole alpha beta gama stuff is crap, if you study any group of chimps you find they exhibit the same battles over internal dominance surrounding right to food and mating as well as sexual dimorphic behaviours along with sub social groups including clicks.

And? We're not chimpanzees, any more than we're wolves.

Organising is key to servival. Co-operation is key. But that dosn't make is socialism or communism and that dosnt mean it wasn't forced.

You seem to have real issues understanding any kind of human interaction that isn't fundamentally an exertion of coercive power.

That's . . . really kind of sad.

[Elegiac]

That isn't cooperation to begin with.

And? We're not chimpanzees, any more than we're wolves.

You seem to have real issues understanding any kind of human interaction that isn't fundamentally an exertion of coercive power.

That's . . . really kind of sad.

I still maintain humanity's natural inclination is towards eusociality.

[Monster Hunter]

That isn't cooperation to begin with.



And? We're not chimpanzees, any more than we're wolves.



You seem to have real issues understanding any kind of human interaction that isn't fundamentally an exertion of coercive power.

That's . . . really kind of sad.

yes it is cooperation, nothing about cooperation requires it to be consensual, we use and see forced cooperation in many way in our society and in the animal kingdom and throughout history. one could argue the whole notion of a country is forced cooperation because there is no real option not to cooperate as those acts tend to be outlawed or aften are outlawed in a society, like not paying taxes for example. there there is domestication, which is very litteraly forcing wild animals to cooperate with us against there origonal nature.

ow on to wolves and chimps, nactually we are more chuimp than wolf, by a long long way, we share only 84% of our DNA with wolves. but we do share 99% of our DNA with chimps, there is overwhelming evidence that many behaviours, especially ones that are wide spread are influenced by genetics.

you seem to have a real issue with reality, like literally, to argue that human hunter gatherers were anything more than exploitative, murderous and barbaric in the exream is fantasising history as bad the Victorians did with the middle ages and knights. you want to see? come to my country and go down to our local pond where human remains regularly pop back up from the pre Celtic days when they used to bind women and children and throw them in to make a god happy

your living in a word of wishful thinking because you hope it supports what you wish the world to be, that makes you as bias the the people who proclaim espose the apha/beta stuff, just because they are wrong dosnt make you right so get of your high horse bud.

[Endus]

yes it is cooperation, nothing about cooperation requires it to be consensual, we use and see forced cooperation in many way in our society and in the animal kingdom and throughout history. one could argue the whole notion of a country is forced cooperation because there is no real option not to cooperate as those acts tend to be outlawed or aften are outlawed in a society, like not paying taxes for example. there there is domestication, which is very litteraly forcing wild animals to cooperate with us against there origonal nature.

That's not what "cooperation" means. That's coercion.

Also, no, domestication isn't about forcing wild animals to do anything. Hell, plants are domesticated, too.

ow on to wolves and chimps, nactually we are more chuimp than wolf, by a long long way, we share only 84% of our DNA with wolves. but we do share 99% of our DNA with chimps, there is overwhelming evidence that many behaviours, especially ones that are wide spread are influenced by genetics.

In the sense of "drive to procreate". Not in the sense of "group dynamics in early human settlements". Even among chimpanzees, you see wild differences in this between standard chimpanzees and Bonobo chimpanzees, for instance.

Also, that 1% you're dismissing is a lot.

you seem to have a real issue with reality, like literally, to argue that human hunter gatherers were anything more than exploitative, murderous and barbaric in the exream is fantasising history as bad the Victorians did with the middle ages and knights.

You're literally pushing 19th Century racist propaganda about "savage races", and I'm the one with an issue with reality?

No anthropologist working today believes the crap you're pushing, here. Because it's crap.