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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    This is why Mattis resigned in the first place. The US has absolutely no reason to be there, other then to sit on Oil that Trump wants for no reason, that we have no legal claim too. Russia tried using Wagner Group to attack the oil wells and force us off, and that led to at least 20 destroyed vehicles and between 40 to 400 fatalities (No US losses). So they aren't likely to do that again.
    While I always value your input and the clear understanding you bring to the table I think this is not quite true.

    Mattis to my knowledge resigned because he is a man that has actual principles, and as a solider it stank to high hell to abandon the Kurds who had fought, bled and died fighting as the frontline infantry units in America's war against ISIS to take Raqqa, while Trump didn't much care because he wanted out, then did an about face partially because Congress forced him to.

    But really the US was staying in Syria for what purpose? Protect the Kurds and keep control over the eastern side of the country? A rather foolish endeavor on multiple levels because the US:

    - Has not had any plan or desire to topple Assad over since Obama withdrew from the red line, and especially after ISIS rose up.
    - Does not have the desire to stop Erdogan from destroying the Syrian Kurds because it would be too costly to do so and because the Turks and Russians are killing each other.
    - Has no long term plan and no political or economical gain from staying in Syria.

    Trump looked at the situation and decided he didn't care to spend money keeping troops for basically nothing in a quagmire

    I mean the US is not really the good guys in this situation. The individual soldiers are good people, but they are sitting on top of oil wells that we have no legal claim to, blocking access to Russia who bought the rights from the SDF. Because Trump is throwing a temper tantrum and essentially using the US military for piracy.
    It's what happens when Trump looked at a situation and decided he didn't care to spend money keeping troops for basically nothing in a quagmire of a civil war and decided to pull out, only for Congress to go ballistic because of his decision , especially because it meant abandoning Syria to Russia, oh the horror of leaving Russia a country they'll be spending billions yearly to keep afloat.

    So after the reaction from Congress Trump decided to do a turn-around and created a pretext of "securing the oil" to have some reason he could throw out there for staying.

    Although I searched and found nothing about the Kurds selling the Syrian oilfields to Russia, maybe you were talking about Iraqi Kurdistan? Instead they sold them to a US company:

    https://www.voanews.com/extremism-wa...d-forces-syria
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  2. #22
    I am Murloc! Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    While I always value your input and the clear understanding you bring to the table I think this is not quite true.

    Mattis to my knowledge resigned because he is a man that has actual principles, and as a solider it stank to high hell to abandon the Kurds who had fought, bled and died fighting as the frontline infantry units in America's war against ISIS to take Raqqa, while Trump didn't much care because he wanted out, then did an about face partially because Congress forced him to.
    I suppose the context didn't prove as much clarity as it should have. Mattis resigned over the troop pullback, but that pullback is what led directly to the current situation, and Mattis (And anyone else with a brain) knew that the consequences would be dire and humiliating to the US.

    After the US abandoned the SDF, allowing Erdogan to invade, the SDF was forced to strike a deal with Assad, which they did within a few months of the US pullback. Their war with Assad was why the US was initially backing them in the first place, before the US entered the picture, which invalidated our initial reason for being in Syria in the first place. The full details of that deal are still not fully known, but they required the Kurds to give up a LOT, and since Assad granted Russia those rights several years ago, the SDF is no longer in position to contest Russian claims. It is likely the oil was specifically in the deal in the first place. To be clear, Russia probably doesn't explictly want those oil fields, it wants only control over its production, in order to maximize their leverage over the oil market. They don't want the Americans (Who aren't part of any cartel) or OPEC (Who acts in opposition to Russia frequently) to have them.

    As far as our purpose with the oil, well, lets see what Trump has to say:

    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Trump, Oil Pirate
    "We are leaving soldiers to secure the oil, and we may have to fight for the oil. It's OK. Maybe somebody else wants the oil, in which case they have a hell of a fight. But there's massive amounts of oil."
    I don't really have anything to add to that. It is one of his few policies that is actually clear.

    So when I saw Mattis resigned over this, I mean the whole damn situation. Certainly the betrayal of the SDF is part of it, but it is all part of the same rotten situation, and Trumps piratical motivations have been clear for a long time.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Collegeguy View Post
    You mean like on this wonderful day?

    https://youtu.be/XaeDMOWkCwU?t=606
    I clearly said I mean US soldiers vs Russian ones, not Wagner PMCs, the official troops, not mercenaries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  4. #24
    Elemental Lord GreenJesus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Yes, I am aware that there are multiple groups on multiple levels, both with different and common interests - local countries, foreign ones, religious groups, tribes and clans and finally factions within each of these who are and are not interconnected to the previous groups.. So basically a few layers, who are interconnected one way or another.
    Does that make it actually complex? Mostly it is a challenge to remember what group does/wants what to understand what will the implications be when doing something with those groups, not that the agendas of those groups are actually complex.

    This is just my two cents, so please, go compare Trump with someone else.
    That sounds a lot more complex than previous wars. "Germany is here. Germans are lead by Hitler. Push forward till we get to Hitler."

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    That sounds a lot more complex than previous wars. "Germany is here. Germans are lead by Hitler. Push forward till we get to Hitler."
    That I do agree with, though WW2 was a bit more complicated than that, with things like Bulgaria who switched sides right when Soviets reached their borders, Finland who were not really allied with Germany in the first place and would not have even been in the war on anyone's side if not for papa Stalin and the Winter War and war within war in China, for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  6. #26
    Why is everyone being so dramatic over what is essentially a military fender bender? Calm the heck down... bloody anarchists wishdreaming WW3.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Why is everyone being so dramatic over what is essentially a military fender bender? Calm the heck down... bloody anarchists wishdreaming WW3.
    Military vehicles are expensive, and often carry several thousands of dollars worth of technology/equipment. And injured soldiers are soldiers that aren’t able to work, which can weaken a unit and any missions they are doing.

    I’m assuming that’s why, idk.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Military vehicles are expensive, and often carry several thousands of dollars worth of technology/equipment. And injured soldiers are soldiers that aren’t able to work, which can weaken a unit and any missions they are doing.

    I’m assuming that’s why, idk.
    Both USA and Russia regularly lose vehicles via stupid shit, like absolutely failing to paradrop Humvees or just having a tank burn down. Some fender bender, even if it destroys the APC/MRAP/whatever, is just peanuts to both of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Military vehicles are expensive, and often carry several thousands of dollars worth of technology/equipment. And injured soldiers are soldiers that aren’t able to work, which can weaken a unit and any missions they are doing.

    I’m assuming that’s why, idk.
    Yes, I have seen the video. those are fucking mraps. They get dinged all the time. The "injury" those soldiers got is no worse than they get every friday evening when they go out to get drunk. As I said somewhere else... the private probably causes more damage reverse parking that can than they got in what is essentially a fender bender and not much more.

    If something like this weakens the unit or their mission, I seriously question wtf they are doing in a warzone. I'd also question the value of building an mrap that is designed to withstand mines exploding under it if it is put out of commission by a friendly ding on the side.

    This case needs perspective. Anyone getting overly dramatic over this clearly has no clue how shitty military equipment is handled and more importantly how shitty it was *designed* to be handled. This is a joke, a propaganda piece for the media. Nothing else.
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