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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    They dedicated an entire Warbringers short to emphasizing that yes, she has always been this evil from the moment she was raised from the dead. Nothing "corrupted" her like Y'sharshsharjar corrupted Garrosh or Ner'zhul corrupted Arthas that could lend even an ounce of sympathy.
    Simply not true, undeath corrupted her, undead Sylvanas and living Sylvanas are pretty much exact opposites and unlike Arthas or Garrosh she never chose her fate, which is reflected by her original afterlife.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-08-31 at 01:59 PM.

  2. #242
    If anyone thinks current Sylvanas will get a moment where she's not 100% pure evil and motivated only by omnicidal destruction, they're kidding themselves. Just read Lilian's dialogue, it's speaking directly to the audience. Ditto her only moment in the new book where despite holding the symbol of her murder and her rebirth, she has no thoughts beyond 'lol more power' and dismisses her lover who she was previously portrayed as having complex feelings towards. The character is meant to be a caricature that exists solely for the story the writers actually want to tell - that of the Shadowlands themselves.

    The thematic throughline, irrespective of all prior material is that all vengeance, all grievance - personal or group is wrong. Anyone not motivated purely by universal good is evil or morally equivalent to evil, be they Uther against the man who killed his king, slaughtered his people and damned him or Tyrande vis a vis the woman who destroyed her people to up a cosmic kill counter and the faction that was at her side until the last five minutes.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-08-31 at 05:54 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Just read Lilian's dialogue, it's speaking directly to the audience.
    Which one, I'm curious? Link? Thanks.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Which one, I'm curious? Link? Thanks.
    Here it is:



    It's addressing the audience who think there's more to Sylvanas than just being a one-note baddie and also their criticisms of Calia being the leader. A downplayed tantrum that they couldn't get their way just yet without backlash and will have to do it at the end of Shadowlands instead.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Here it is:



    It's addressing the audience who think there's more to Sylvanas than just being a one-note baddie and also their criticisms of Calia being the leader. A downplayed tantrum that they couldn't get their way just yet without backlash and will have to do it at the end of Shadowlands instead.
    Thank you. And indeed seems like you're right. As cringy as this message sounds and the "subtlety" and patronizing tone with which it's delivered, things don't look good for Sylvie!

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Thank you. And indeed seems like you're right. As cringy as this message sounds and the "subtlety" and patronizing tone with which it's delivered, things don't look good for Sylvie!
    She's a shadow of what she was in any case, but given that she represents any lasting nuance that isn't a bunch of far more empty husks parroting nonsense about honor and cooperation it doesn't surprise me they don't want to show her to have any characteristics whatsoever. It'd take attention away from the Shadowlands characters they actually care about and the faction characters they want to teach lessons about love and peace through.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    The only issue is, they havent confirmed awarness yet.

    For example:
    in bastion afterlives they dont show Uther before the arbiter. Its just death one sec and bam next moment you are in Bastion. Now we dont know if:
    1. Arbiter judging him is skipped for cinematic reasons
    or
    2. the soul has no awareness of it until they reach their assigned destination.

    And since we also dont know the path of a soul. Does the arbiter deem you totally irredeemable and send you to the maw? Or does the arbiter give you one last chance at revendreth and then if you fail send you to the maw.

    Now since sylvanas ended up immediately at the maw. Lets say number 2 from the first part [a soul is not aware until it reaches its assigned destination] is true. Does that mean that she got sent there because the arbiter deemed her irredeemable? She hadnt gone totally crazy evil then. And if Kael can end up in revendreth for literally trying to get Kiljaeden into Azeroth, id say Sylvanas deserves a chance in revendreth too.

    So based on that [IF THEY DONT RETCON EDGE OF THE NIGHT] my guess is, that due to Arthas getting dumped into the maw by uther, something allowed the jailor to reach out and drag sylvanas there.

    Mind you. trick or not. It doesnt matter at this point. Because no amount of "i was tricked" will make up for Teldrassil and instigating the blood bath in BfA. Not to mention they already confirmed in Blizzcon that she is the Jailors lackey, is evil and has no relations not even to the loyalists who helped her in BfA. [But obviously one needs a disclaimer because with Blizzard who knows what tomorrow holds. Maybe theyll go back on that whole thing].
    Remember that 9 val'kyr conveniently showed up when sylvanas commited suicide... And ressurected her by sacrificing themselves.

    Those Valkyr, like Uther and Devos did, may have taken Sylvana's soul directly to the maw for the Jailer's plan.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Simply not true, undeath corrupted her, undead Sylvanas and living Sylvanas are pretty much exact opposites and unlike Arthas or Garrosh she never chose her fate, which is reflected by her original afterlife.
    I disagree. Yes, we see how undeath tends to darken the outlook of those afflicted by it, but people have managed to stay good in spite of it. Undeath is not what changed Sylvanas. It was watching her hope crumble. If she was resurrected back into life tomorrow she would be the exact same monster she is today. That's the difference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The thematic throughline, irrespective of all prior material is that all vengeance, all grievance - personal or group is wrong. Anyone not motivated purely by universal good is evil or morally equivalent to evil, be they Uther against the man who killed his king, slaughtered his people and damned him or Tyrande vis a vis the woman who destroyed her people to up a cosmic kill counter and the faction that was at her side until the last five minutes.
    I'd argue it's a little more nuanced than that. That vengeance, while an understandable reaction to atrocities, is volatile and dangerous, threatening to consume you. The moment where you act on it at the expense of your values and your people is more what's deemed to be the dangerous tipping point to avoid turning to villainy.

    Thanks for the Lilian Voss quote as well, where's that from? I assume some point past the end of the war campaign.

    (edit: And I'm only now realizing the irony of Voss in particular, who absolutely let herself be consumed by all the vengeance ever, and still managed to get out the other side in one piece eventually. I still desperately want them to address the plot point that Calia Menethil was among the priests who let reformed Scarlet Crusade members into their fold.)
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2020-08-31 at 10:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Undeath is not what changed Sylvanas. It was watching her hope crumble.
    Nah, pretty sure it WAS the Undeath. And ya know, the whole mindrape, forced to murder people against your will thing... No biggie though

  10. #250
    my take on this whole thing is Sylvannas is doing the knife to the back bit against the jailer. she knows whats going on or at least most of it. She knows what now happens to souls for god or bad, shes sees this realm as another form of slavery where your judged with little choice of your own and sent someplace to suffer or serve. to this end she has allied with the jailer. not to further his ends but to eventually free herself from the chains fo life and the afterlife as she sees it "i will set us all free" she sees the afterlife as just another trap, i think in the end it will be shown she did what she did to further her agenda to break the cycle and end whatever is going on in the afterlife in her mind. i believe she did what she did to force our hand and to open our eyes to the truth "her truth". she wants us in shadowlands. to feed us to the maw? maybe, to serve the jailer maybe, but i think its because she knows only we can end it. time will tell

  11. #251
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    Remember that 9 val'kyr conveniently showed up when sylvanas commited suicide... And ressurected her by sacrificing themselves.

    Those Valkyr, like Uther and Devos did, may have taken Sylvana's soul directly to the maw for the Jailer's plan.
    exactly.

    *tin foil hat time*
    so my current belief is (obviously i have absolutely nothing to support this currently) that frostmourne keeping all the souls and might be feeding something to the jailer. It seems to me that the jailer and the maw arent really given anima, or he might break out. However with the legion passing frostmourne to nerzhul and then arthas, frostmourne might have been feeding broken off souls to him OR once shattered those pieces might be headed to the maw if not to the arbiter. I mean if you are a being of Titan ++ power and you are a captive, you wouldnt need alot of power to break free of your chains. A little little little....little bit at a time allows you to bring out extensions of your power and get things in motion for the final release. So frostmourne being made, stolen, arthas and sylvanas might just be stages of his plan. I mean honestly he doesnt seem as much a captive of the maw. More like the only thing really keeping him back is the maw itself rather than a prison in the maw.
    *tin foil hat off

    if that does end up happening, well, people better get their flotation tubes ready because we will have a creaky door opening to sylvanas' redepemtion and the tidal wave of tears that will follow it.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I disagree. Yes, we see how undeath tends to darken the outlook of those afflicted by it, but people have managed to stay good in spite of it. Undeath is not what changed Sylvanas. It was watching her hope crumble. If she was resurrected back into life tomorrow she would be the exact same monster she is today. That's the difference.
    Yes it is, she is in constant rage modus due to it, and banshees in particular are tortured souls, so much so that even holding part of their essence is unsettling


    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Argent_Reinforcements

    Oh my...the banshee are very tortured souls indeed. Merely holding their essence is emotionally painful...

    Make no mistake Sylvanas is a rotten monster, but to say she is worse than Arthas is a blatant lie.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Make no mistake Sylvanas is a rotten monster, but to say she is worse than Arthas is a blatant lie.
    I would, actually. We see what Arthas is like still undead but with his soul back after we shattered his sword. Sylvanas has had her soul back in her body since WC3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Nah, pretty sure it WAS the Undeath. And ya know, the whole mindrape, forced to murder people against your will thing... No biggie though
    Not to mention she was Resurrected into undeath more then once.

    I’m damn sure that is not good for your already tortured soul.
    Last edited by TigTone; 2020-09-01 at 03:55 PM.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I would, actually. We see what Arthas is like still undead but with his soul back after we shattered his sword. Sylvanas has had her soul back in her body since WC3.
    Arthas was in control for quite some time and he chose his fate, he was the one who tore ner'zhul apart, because unlike him Arthas regretted not a single thing he did. Heck he created the monster that is Sylvanas, he bears most of the blame of what she has become, merely through the fact that he raised and twisted her soul.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    I'd argue it's a little more nuanced than that. That vengeance, while an understandable reaction to atrocities, is volatile and dangerous, threatening to consume you. The moment where you act on it at the expense of your values and your people is more what's deemed to be the dangerous tipping point to avoid turning to villainy.

    Thanks for the Lilian Voss quote as well, where's that from? I assume some point past the end of the war campaign.

    (edit: And I'm only now realizing the irony of Voss in particular, who absolutely let herself be consumed by all the vengeance ever, and still managed to get out the other side in one piece eventually. I still desperately want them to address the plot point that Calia Menethil was among the priests who let reformed Scarlet Crusade members into their fold.)
    It's not merely dangerous in the eyes of the narrative, but amoral. Tyrande is considered a barking madwoman for believing in things like collective responsibility or even her dislike for Sylvanas. In turn, those after Sylvanas except her, even fucking Genn, are cast as being motivated by nothing but high-minded desire to stop a menace, in the same way that I look at my shopping list and feel a high-minded desire to go stock up on canned beans. The wish for revenge is human, a society traumatized by experience is human, conflict on bases other than universal good and evil are human and both have been baked into the franchise since Day 1. It can even still present them - that Bastion short was great. But we know it'll end with them prancing through a meadow with fucking Arthas at the end of it.

    The quote is fom the pre-patch. Voss does not act in a state that's sensible or reflective of her own actions. Not only was Voss's personal hatred for necromancy entirely in keeping with the background, ditto that of the Scarlet Crusade, she never received a bit of stimulus against that sentiment. It's the biggest flaw with her BFA arc besides its ending - her joining Sylvanas as anything but the unofficial thing in Cataclysm where she was aimed in roughly the same direction as the Forsaken's enemies comes up against the wall of Sylvanas being a necromancer. A nicer necromancer to be sure, but Voss's adoption of that aspect of the Forsaken identity needed to be addressed in some way, given how she's later shown to be upset about Sylvanas not upholding that with Derek and assist with necromancy herself.

    It's easier to read Voss as a proxy for a generic Forsaken and as what Blizzard want the Forsaken playerbase to think of Calia than as her own person. Applying that lens makes every action she takes far more understandable, especially in that parodic bit here and of course the infamous part with her dad. Lilian Voss would think twice about trusting anyone who praises her abusive father off-handedly, but Forsaken Playerbase Proxy as written by Blizzard less so. Every character in the pre-patch talks about what a great job Calia is doing saving lives and spirits, but her feats are entirely off-screen and it comes across as desperate shilling.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's easier to read Voss as a proxy for a generic Forsaken and as what Blizzard want the Forsaken playerbase to think of Calia than as her own person. Applying that lens makes every action she takes far more understandable, especially in that parodic bit here and of course the infamous part with her dad. Lilian Voss would think twice about trusting anyone who praises her abusive father off-handedly, but Forsaken Playerbase Proxy as written by Blizzard less so. Every character in the pre-patch talks about what a great job Calia is doing saving lives and spirits, but her feats are entirely off-screen and it comes across as desperate shilling.
    While I completely see how she comes off as that, and definitely think that she played dual role as "the comparatively good-natured forsaken playerbase proxy", I guess I just have more confidence in their writing than that. Blizzard would have had to remember her storyline with her brutally murdering her father when adding that bit of dialogue to Calia. It would be more concerning if it wasn't brought up at all.

    It could be that Calia is exactly as boring as she looks and will remain so, or it could be that they're intentionally setting her up for failure and rejection when faced with the depraved side of the forsaken, with them very intentionally choosing Voss on purpose for that reason.

    In the same way Arthas could be redeemed by the end, or not. Blizzard love subverting expectations for drama.



    Part of me actually suspects that in both this Illidan example and forsaken leadership they're cheekily watching the community reaction to events to see how they want things to go. "Oh, the lightbound illidan arc isn't going over well? Hold on a patch, we'll make a new cutscene."

    I definitely think they did that when writing the Mag'har scenario. It was almost point-for-point a response to people's criticisms of WOD. Remove time travel element? Check. Remove access to alternate reality from the picture? Check. Yrel should've been angry at the iron horde? Check. Punish Grommash for his actions? Check. Remove all other alt versions of existing characters? Check. Give brown orc customizations to playerbase? Checkarooni.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2020-09-02 at 11:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  18. #258
    I really don't get this thread much. Nothing shown in Afterlives Bastion remotely suggests Slyvannas was wrongly send to the Maw.

    When Uther died he didn't remember being brought before the Arbiter. He died and, as far as he could tell, woke up in Bastion. Why would Slyvannas?

    However her Warcraft 3 death to the Edge of Night show that clearly the Arbiter considers things done in undeath when weighting a soul. While Ashbringer shows undead isn't a instant sentace to the Maw.

    The takeway is Slyvannas is literally irredeemable and evil.
    Last edited by WonderZebra; 2020-09-02 at 11:01 PM.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    I really don't get this thread much. Nothing shown in Afterlives Bastion remotely suggests Slyvannas was wrongly send to the Maw.

    When Uther died he didn't remember being brought before the Arbiter. He died and, as far as he could tell, woke up in Bastion. Why would Slyvannas?

    However her Warcraft 3 death to the Edge of Night show that clearly the Arbiter considers things done in undeath when weighting a soul. While Ashbringer shows undead is a instant sentace to the Maw.

    The takeway is Slyvannas is literally irredeemable and evil.
    That's an interesting thing to note. It's weighing the soul. Do we consider Arthas to have been soulless from the moment he picked up Frostmourne ("your soul was one of the first it claimed" -Mal'ganis "Then I'll make due without one. What is the Lich King's Will?" -DK Arthas) and thus the soul not to be punished for those actions?

    Obviously either way Sylvanas had hers since she reclaimed her body and free will and declared vengeance on Arthas at the latest, so everything else she's done since is her own fault exclusively.

    What does a soul do, anyway? In this mismatched world of fiction where we walk by entities every day that manage to act without souls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    That's an interesting thing to note. It's weighing the soul. Do we consider Arthas to have been soulless from the moment he picked up Frostmourne ("your soul was one of the first it claimed" -Mal'ganis "Then I'll make due without one. What is the Lich King's Will?" -DK Arthas) and thus the soul not to be punished for those actions?

    Obviously either way Sylvanas had hers since she reclaimed her body and free will and declared vengeance on Arthas at the latest, so everything else she's done since is her own fault exclusively.
    Could be a fun quest to retrieve Arthas's soul to be correctly judged and him getting sent to another afterlife not the Maw. Could work for a redemption arc for Uther?

    Based on Uther's soul seemingly being spilt in half I could see them making it so there are two souls a lower and a higher soul so to speak. One used in necromancy/fel and the other is what the Arbiter judges? Thus maybe soulless isn't totally souless? But that's an agressive amount of speculation.

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