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  1. #1

    [Spoilers] Bastion and how Sylvanas was tricked.

    Spoilers and such.

    We learn in Bastion that souls don't just go to the Shadowlands, but are retrieved and brought before the Arbiter before being judged and even evil people aren't immediately sent to the Maw.

    With the new short, we even see that Arthas was dumped into the Maw without being judged, implying he might not have been destined for the Maw but possibly redemption.

    Now remembering that Sylvanas died and immediately went to the Maw, we now know why Arthas was there but not only that, Sylvanas didn't get judged and sent there, she was brought there by the Valkyr and brought back from there by them, Valkyr created by the Scourge which uses the power of the Maw.

    Sylvanas fearing this dark fate for her and her people(mostly her) led to her allying with the Jailer and doing some evil stuff. This means that she could have been redeemed and may even still be redeemable now and may lead to her betraying Jailer if she ever realize it, or go the route of Deathwing and realizing you've been tricked but since you've gone this far, there's no going back(feelsbadfordeathwing)

    There is also the possibility that this is never addressed because blizzard might not have thought of it and I'm just using logical thinking here(indoctrination theory)

  2. #2
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Or she tricked jailer into thinking that he tricked her because she is just this evil.

    That or VIPs gets special treatment.

  3. #3
    It's been a long-running theory that Sylvanas was not destined for the Maw, and the Jailer sent her there to scare her and manipulate her into doing what he wanted. Even if people assume that she orchestrated Wrathgate, pre-Cata Sylvanas was not on Kael and Garrosh levels (both of whom didn't go to the Maw either).

    She's still not getting redeemed for massacring thousands of innocents. She may have a moment of clarity though.

  4. #4
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Or, you know, retcon. Blizzard didn't have the whole Shadowland fleshed out when they wrote her to hell.
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    She's still not getting redeemed for massacring thousands of innocents. She may have a moment of clarity though.
    Even that would just get her revendreth, there are people in there who wiped out entire species and worlds.

  6. #6
    Question: How do you know Sylvanas was immediately sent to the Maw? For all we know, the short story simply skipped over her going to the Arbiter for judgement because the story wanted to focus on the moment when she went to the Maw.

    Plus if I'm not mistaken the short story literally opens with Sylvanas seeing a place full of joy, warmth, light, and an eternal sea (which could be the infinite stream of souls entering the Shadowlands). Do you know which place matches this decription?

    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    Or, you know, retcon. Blizzard didn't have the whole Shadowland fleshed out when they wrote her to hell.
    The idea of "Sylvanas went evil in Cata because she saw that she was going to hell, maybe something 'corrupted' her and it was a false vision" has been around since the short story came out. Even if the Maw or the Jailer weren't concrete concepts, the idea of a Super Hell and a potentially evil spirit in the Shadowlands have been pretty clear concepts.

  8. #8
    No, nothing will justify what she did. She needs to burn. Wether it was justified fear or not she killed and sent countless souls to it. She is evil to the core and needs to pay. There is no forgiveness to be had. She may come to regret what she did, but it is difficult to find a punishment that doesn't involve near eternal sacrifice.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2020-08-27 at 08:34 PM.

  9. #9
    I knew this is gonna be created but not this soon xd

    this is how story will go.

    Sylvanas was thrown by xxx party to the Maw.

    she made a deal with Jailer.

    by the time we get to them we will learn how Sylvanas was unjustly thrown into the Maw by someone -insert name-.

    when we beat her ass, we are gonna get dumb sad emotional cinematic where they reveal how she was sent there even though she "doesn't" deserve it.

    she'll then switch sides because she was doing all this because of trickery and we will kill the Jailer while Sylvanas shouts Azeroth is free!!! and everyone forgives her except Tyrande (if she survives that is).

    called it first.
    Last edited by DemonHunter18; 2020-08-27 at 08:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    except she was, she literally was experimenting on prisoners men, women, children, soldier, and civilian,
    to try and make a stronger and stronger plague.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Your not gonna win trying to make this one realize the truth.
    Your have better luck curing Corona with lemon and lime juice

  10. #10
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    I'm actually starting to think that Sylvanas was tricked, albeit not quite the way the OP relates (I think). I think by the time Sylvanas died at Icecrown the Jailer was sufficiently powerful enough to snag her soul and bring her to Maw directly, bypassing her second judgement by the Arbiter. There he was able to torture her with all the things she truly feared and dreaded. Then he allows the Nine Val'kyr to bring her back out of the Maw and tempt her with possible escape, thereby instilling and inculcating the fear that would eventually drive her directly into his full service later on as a means to avoid an actually false fate she believes is otherwise unavoidable.

    This doesn't by any means redeem Sylvanas for her later actions, as she still consciously made the choices to act on that fear, but does go to show that the Jailer actually manipulated her into doing exactly what was needed to ultimately topple the system keeping him imprisoned. In this sense, and for all her arrogance and bluster, Sylvanas is actually the pawn of an even greater force - and when and if she realizes that she too has been gulled, I can only wonder what her reaction will be.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-08-27 at 08:43 PM.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  11. #11
    I like the theory that Yogg-saron tricked her into thinking she was damned and that's what led to her desire to remain, thanks to Sylvanas' suicide on a spike of saronite. From what I remember, death is supposed to be immune to the Void, but considering that the Light started to be able to interact with Death in Legion, who really knows anymore.

    Far cry considering that the Old Gods aren't in the story anymore, but that would work so much better.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldielocks View Post
    I like the theory that Yogg-saron tricked her into thinking she was damned and that's what led to her desire to remain, thanks to Sylvanas' suicide on a spike of saronite. From what I remember, death is supposed to be immune to the Void, but considering that the Light started to be able to interact with Death in Legion, who really knows anymore.

    Far cry considering that the Old Gods aren't in the story anymore, but that would work so much better.
    Eh, it's only better if you like Yogg Saron and the Old Gods, because otherwise it doesn't make much sense why he would do it other than "lol cause chaos". I don't think the idea of "Sylvanas went crazy because old god" is compelling, it sucks the same way all the other old god corruption stories suck, even if the reason for her going insane is actually good this time around (seeing herself go to hell) instead of AAA THE WHISPERS NOOOO

  13. #13
    I'm not reading too much into that honestly, because even in the short today, Uther looks like he instantly went to Bastion.

    And the way the Arbiter is described is as so-
    "When a soul is brought before the Arbiter, all of its contents—deeds, misdeeds, thoughts, accomplishments, and failures—are instantly laid bare, absorbed, and understood by her. The Arbiter then sends the soul off to one of the infinite realms of the Shadowlands, determined by the soul's character."

    So...it doesn't sound like a lengthy process at all, a quick judgement and then shuffled to where they belong. Perhaps the souls themselves are sometimes not even fully conscious when it happens.

  14. #14
    This thread reminds me of the frantic flailing before BfA launched trying to blame ANYONE or ANYTHING but the Lich Queen burning Teldrassil.

  15. #15
    You think she is redeemable after killing most of the night elf population?

    She is not. She will be a lot pinata at some point in Sl.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    Eh, it's only better if you like Yogg Saron and the Old Gods, because otherwise it doesn't make much sense why he would do it other than "lol cause chaos". I don't think the idea of "Sylvanas went crazy because old god" is compelling, it sucks the same way all the other old god corruption stories suck, even if the reason for her going insane is actually good this time around (seeing herself go to hell) instead of AAA THE WHISPERS NOOOO
    Oh no, they didn't corrupt her at all. They just used her fear of damnation against her. I'd say they were far less hands on with her as compared to Neltharion, who was literally driven insane by their whispers. Fair to point out that if that happened to Sylvanas she would mention it.

    I found 8.3 to be incredibly disappointing so I don't even know why I'd reopen this wound so soon lmao

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    This thread reminds me of the frantic flailing before BfA launched trying to blame ANYONE or ANYTHING but the Lich Queen burning Teldrassil.
    But it does bring a good point, based on the Uther video. All souls have to be judge by the Arbiter and for what we know, Sylvanas was sent directly to the Maw and then brought back to Azeroth by the Val'kyr, which is only possible by the intervention of an Agent of the Maw.

  18. #18
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    You think she is redeemable after killing most of the night elf population?

    She is not. She will be a lot pinata at some point in Sl.
    I agree, you can't redeem something that needs no redemption.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    You think she is redeemable after killing most of the night elf population?
    By the very workings of the shadowlands, yeah she would be. Entire species and worlds were destroyed by some of the souls in revendreth.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    This thread reminds me of the frantic flailing before BfA launched trying to blame ANYONE or ANYTHING but the Lich Queen burning Teldrassil.
    I mean, she still is responsible for her actions. Someone manipulating her and setting her down that path doesn't absolve her of that.

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