[Spoilers] Bastion and how Sylvanas was tricked.

[MikeBogina]

But those valkyrs were still created by the Lich King and served him. Even though the Lich King was an agent of the Maw and his powers derived from the Maw, his affiliations were his own.

And their affiliation is of their own choosing after his death, which is why they didn't listen to Bolvar and made a pact with Slyvanas. Also, don't think it is proven that the Lich King is an agent of the Jailer, but clearly uses maw powers.
Also also, we have the most loyal member of the Scourge, KelThuzad working for the Jailer after Arthas' death, either because the Lich King was allied with the Jailer or you just choosing to on his own.

[Varodoc]

And their affiliation is of their own choosing after his death, which is why they didn't listen to Bolvar and made a pact with Slyvanas. Also, don't think it is proven that the Lich King is an agent of the Jailer, but clearly uses maw powers.
Also also, we have the most loyal member of the Scourge, KelThuzad working for the Jailer after Arthas' death, either because the Lich King was allied with the Jailer or you just choosing to on his own.

And why would they listen to Jailer? How would the Jailer even talk to them? Jailer is powerless, he is confined to the Maw, he cannot affect the mortal realm in any way. That is why he needed Sylvanas to act in his stead on Azeroth.

[MikeBogina]

And why would they listen to Jailer? How would the Jailer even talk to them? Jailer is powerless, he is confined to the Maw, he cannot affect the mortal realm in any way. That is why he needed Sylvanas to act in his stead on Azeroth.

We'll have to ask them I guess, why they beings of life and death who were created by the powers of the Maw, would ever align themselves with a Titan++ being who is the Lord of the Maw.

I'd imagine that they being beings created by the power of the Maw and able to cross over into the ShadowRealm may be able to communicate with him, or possibly even Helya who they put Slyvanas in touch with, who works for the Jailer.

Powerless then maybe, but not powerless now but still Helya served him.
He needed Sylvanas and who helped him get her on his side? The Valkyr.

[Varodoc]

We'll have to ask them I guess, why they beings of life and death who were created by the powers of the Maw, would ever align themselves with a Titan++ being who is the Lord of the Maw.

I'd imagine that they being beings created by the power of the Maw and able to cross over into the ShadowRealm may be able to communicate with him, or possibly even Helya who they put Slyvanas in touch with, who works for the Jailer.

Powerless then maybe, but not powerless now but still Helya served him.
He needed Sylvanas and who helped him get her on his side? The Valkyr.

Things did not go like this. It does not make any sense at all. I am expected to believe all of this happened in like 10 minutes? Edge of Night starts right after Lich King is dead. So in that short period of time, the valkyr decided not to follow Bolvar, found out about Jailer, travelled to the Maw and pledged themselves to him, formulated the plan to deceive Sylvanas, and proceeded with that plan?

Also, the valkyrs were created by the power of Maldraxxus. It is specifically mentioned that Maldraxxus acted as the groundwork for the Scourge.

[Aleksej89]

Blizzard will, unfortunately, never kill their garrosh-with-tits.

That simp writer of theirs will just keep creating more vomit with his favorite nazi hypocrite genocider queen in the spotlight.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Spoilers and such.

We learn in Bastion that souls don't just go to the Shadowlands, but are retrieved and brought before the Arbiter before being judged and even evil people aren't immediately sent to the Maw.

With the new short, we even see that Arthas was dumped into the Maw without being judged, implying he might not have been destined for the Maw but possibly redemption.

Now remembering that Sylvanas died and immediately went to the Maw, we now know why Arthas was there but not only that, Sylvanas didn't get judged and sent there, she was brought there by the Valkyr and brought back from there by them, Valkyr created by the Scourge which uses the power of the Maw.

Sylvanas fearing this dark fate for her and her people(mostly her) led to her allying with the Jailer and doing some evil stuff. This means that she could have been redeemed and may even still be redeemable now and may lead to her betraying Jailer if she ever realize it, or go the route of Deathwing and realizing you've been tricked but since you've gone this far, there's no going back(feelsbadfordeathwing)

There is also the possibility that this is never addressed because blizzard might not have thought of it and I'm just using logical thinking here(indoctrination theory)

If the Jailer had a hand in making both Arthas and allying Sylvanas, there's definitely something sketchy going on.

The question is if the Jailer damned Sylvanas soul to the Maw on purpose, or it's a side effect of Frostmourne just being stolen; because maybe being raised into undeath with Frostmourne is what automatically binds you to the Maw, like a curse, unlike Uther, who got only soul-split because he was killed by it, and not risen into undeath.

But if it is all part of his plan, then it is very likely that the same Valkyr that allegedly offered Sylvanas another option were just sent by him to manipulate her. Because maybe all of the Scourge's Valkyr truly served him.

So is Sylvanas just a pawn that will be dealt with, or is she going to turn the tables?

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Blizzard will, unfortunately, never kill their garrosh-with-tits.

That simp writer of theirs will just keep creating more vomit with his favorite nazi hypocrite genocider queen in the spotlight.

It's so easy to see how fragile someone else's ego is just how they talk lol.

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Things did not go like this. It does not make any sense at all. I am expected to believe all of this happened in like 10 minutes? Edge of Night starts right after Lich King is dead. So in that short period of time, the valkyr decided not to follow Bolvar, found out about Jailer, travelled to the Maw and pledged themselves to him, formulated the plan to deceive Sylvanas, and proceeded with that plan?

Also, the valkyrs were created by the power of Maldraxxus. It is specifically mentioned that Maldraxxus acted as the groundwork for the Scourge.

But it's obvious that the Valkyr have their origin on Maldraxxus, just as the San'layn on Revendreth. Arthas definitely used more sources than just Maldraxxus.

The question is, if Arthas, the Lich King, is literally borrowed power, couldn't the Valkyr he made just be double agents for the Jailer the whole time?

[Powerogue]

Well we can gauge that the Sylvanas thing happened after this, since she sees Arthas in the Maw.

I do think you're overreaching though. Arthas deserved his fate a thousand times over, and so does Sylvanas. If they do the [insert your character here] end cinematic like they did for N'zoth where I can throw her personally into that pit I would be a happy camper.

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Blizzard will, unfortunately, never kill their garrosh-with-tits.

That simp writer of theirs will just keep creating more vomit with his favorite nazi hypocrite genocider queen in the spotlight.

They killed Garrosh-without-tits, I don't know why you're so ironclad on this. Characters sliding down a path of villainy until there's no choice but to end them is a trope for a reason, it just happened in the last show I watched.

Sylvanas is evil, and now separated from the Horde. I expect the same for Gallywix eventually, though I hope they do his incredibly entertaining brand of moustache-twirling villainy justice. (I really loved the goblin heritage questline, but don't let that be it!)

[Timester]

Things did not go like this. It does not make any sense at all. I am expected to believe all of this happened in like 10 minutes?

Time is different in the Shadowlands.

[Powerogue]

she'll then switch sides because she was doing all this because of trickery and we will kill the Jailer while Sylvanas shouts Azeroth is free!!! and everyone forgives her except Tyrande (if she survives that is).

called it first.

At absolutely most optimistic I could see a "semi-redemptive going out in a blaze of glory to take out the big bad" for her, but I still consider that a huge stretch.

[Thage]

I mean, what we know about Revendreth makes it pretty obvious that if you were shitty in life, you went to Revendreth to pay off your, eh, sin-debts? Akin to many interpretations of purgatory in modern religions. You went to the Maw if you either refused this final second chance, or failed beyond any hope of success. Throwing people directly into the Maw, circumventing the proper processes and channels, is what's thrown the Shadowlands all out of whack.

Nice job breaking it, Uther and Devos. Because those two probably gave the Jailer the idea in the first place.

As all this pertains to Sylvanas, odds are she's going to refuse purgatory in Revendreth and die in a last stand, ending up another prisoner in the Maw once all's said and done, unless Blizzard opts to have her go full Kerrigan instead... which is just stupid enough to be a valid possibility with this writing team.

[bagina]

But seriously. There are some things that I think we can agree that will happen no matter what

A, Sylvanas won't die - I mean, be real
B, Sylvanas will be given a convincing (in-universe) motive for doing what she does, we'll see things from her perspective, this will cause massive butthurt but it's gonna happen and you know it
C, Sylvanas won't be staying in cahoots with the Jailer
D, Sylvanas won't in the traditional sense but she'll walk away with a "consolation prize"

quote me in 2 years

[Kallisto]

I'm not reading too much into that honestly, because even in the short today, Uther looks like he instantly went to Bastion.

And the way the Arbiter is described is as so-
"When a soul is brought before the Arbiter, all of its contents—deeds, misdeeds, thoughts, accomplishments, and failures—are instantly laid bare, absorbed, and understood by her. The Arbiter then sends the soul off to one of the infinite realms of the Shadowlands, determined by the soul's character."

So...it doesn't sound like a lengthy process at all, a quick judgement and then shuffled to where they belong. Perhaps the souls themselves are sometimes not even fully conscious when it happens.

The issue is then why would she be going to the maw at that point. Ravendreth have people that did much worse than pre cata Sylvanas.

[Izalla]

This has been my guess for a while now. Someone also told her about Helya back in Legion for her to have any way to know about/seek her out, and we know Helya is allied with The Jailer. Sylvie's valkyr are super suspicious at this point.

[NoiseTank13]

Since Uther was apparently split in half by Frostmourne, I'm going to wager the same thing happened to Sylvanas, only her good Light self was sent to the Shadowlands and the other manifested in her undead self, and we'll reunite the two as one and she will be the Queen of Azeroth.

[bagina]

The issue is then why would she be going to the maw at that point. Ravendreth have people that did much worse than pre cata Sylvanas.

If Blizz retain at least an ounce of competence they'll address this fact.

Otherwise, well, people gladly accept any bullshit as long as it affects a character they personally dislike, no matter how dumb it is or how many in-universe rules it breaks. They usually need to be spoon-fed a cinematic or animation to consider any new idea or perspective. So let's wait for Sylvanas cinematic

[Goldielocks]

If Blizz retain at least an ounce of competence they'll address this fact.

Otherwise, well, people gladly accept any bullshit as long as it affects a character they personally dislike, no matter how dumb it is or how many in-universe rules it breaks. They usually need to be spoon-fed a cinematic or animation to consider any new idea or perspective. So let's wait for Sylvanas cinematic

People do this with any plot "recontextualization." They don't want to accept that Warcraft lore has not been consistent since becoming an MMO and Shadowlands is no different.

[bagina]

People do this with any plot "recontextualization." They don't want to accept that Warcraft lore has not been consistent since becoming an MMO and Shadowlands is no different.

Very true!

[Traveler Voltin]

This thread reminds me of the frantic flailing before BfA launched trying to blame ANYONE or ANYTHING but the Lich Queen burning Teldrassil.

that one was on blizzard for saying it was a mystery about who did it.

[Kallisto]

I mean, what we know about Revendreth makes it pretty obvious that if you were shitty in life, you went to Revendreth to pay off your, eh, sin-debts? Akin to many interpretations of purgatory in modern religions. You went to the Maw if you either refused this final second chance, or failed beyond any hope of success. Throwing people directly into the Maw, circumventing the proper processes and channels, is what's thrown the Shadowlands all out of whack.

Nice job breaking it, Uther and Devos. Because those two probably gave the Jailer the idea in the first place.

As all this pertains to Sylvanas, odds are she's going to refuse purgatory in Revendreth and die in a last stand, ending up another prisoner in the Maw once all's said and done, unless Blizzard opts to have her go full Kerrigan instead... which is just stupid enough to be a valid possibility with this writing team.

I'm not sure if throwing Arthas into the maw is what broke it though. People that died post cata but pre BFA are outside the Maw. Garrosh is shown in a still for Ravendreth cinematic that will come later. Ysera is in Ardenwield . We don't know yet what broke it. But it is likely either the lantern in Stormheim incident, Illidan opening the portal to Argus or the death of Argus. That is if death being broken was done on Azeroth at all.

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People do this with any plot "recontextualization." They don't want to accept that Warcraft lore has not been consistent since becoming an MMO and Shadowlands is no different.

Warcraft lore has not been consistent since WC2

[msmollymillions]

She's still not getting redeemed for massacring thousands of innocents.

Yes she is. She's Ion's waifu and favourite character. She's 100% getting Kerrigan'd by the end of Shadowlands. They haven't been planning on making her the big bad over the past few expansions, they just love using her but she outgrew her welcome with most fans hence the heel turn. This way they can use her and let people fight her, but she'll get a happy send off in the end probably as the New Jailer with Arthas replacing the Arbiter or some crap like that.