[Spoilers] Bastion and how Sylvanas was tricked.

[Super Dickmann]

If anyone thinks current Sylvanas will get a moment where she's not 100% pure evil and motivated only by omnicidal destruction, they're kidding themselves. Just read Lilian's dialogue, it's speaking directly to the audience. Ditto her only moment in the new book where despite holding the symbol of her murder and her rebirth, she has no thoughts beyond 'lol more power' and dismisses her lover who she was previously portrayed as having complex feelings towards. The character is meant to be a caricature that exists solely for the story the writers actually want to tell - that of the Shadowlands themselves.

The thematic throughline, irrespective of all prior material is that all vengeance, all grievance - personal or group is wrong. Anyone not motivated purely by universal good is evil or morally equivalent to evil, be they Uther against the man who killed his king, slaughtered his people and damned him or Tyrande vis a vis the woman who destroyed her people to up a cosmic kill counter and the faction that was at her side until the last five minutes.

[bagina]

Just read Lilian's dialogue, it's speaking directly to the audience.

Which one, I'm curious? Link? Thanks.

[Super Dickmann]

Which one, I'm curious? Link? Thanks.

Here it is:



It's addressing the audience who think there's more to Sylvanas than just being a one-note baddie and also their criticisms of Calia being the leader. A downplayed tantrum that they couldn't get their way just yet without backlash and will have to do it at the end of Shadowlands instead.

[bagina]

Here it is:



It's addressing the audience who think there's more to Sylvanas than just being a one-note baddie and also their criticisms of Calia being the leader. A downplayed tantrum that they couldn't get their way just yet without backlash and will have to do it at the end of Shadowlands instead.

Thank you. And indeed seems like you're right. As cringy as this message sounds and the "subtlety" and patronizing tone with which it's delivered, things don't look good for Sylvie!

[Super Dickmann]

Thank you. And indeed seems like you're right. As cringy as this message sounds and the "subtlety" and patronizing tone with which it's delivered, things don't look good for Sylvie!

She's a shadow of what she was in any case, but given that she represents any lasting nuance that isn't a bunch of far more empty husks parroting nonsense about honor and cooperation it doesn't surprise me they don't want to show her to have any characteristics whatsoever. It'd take attention away from the Shadowlands characters they actually care about and the faction characters they want to teach lessons about love and peace through.

[Engal]

The only issue is, they havent confirmed awarness yet.

For example:
in bastion afterlives they dont show Uther before the arbiter. Its just death one sec and bam next moment you are in Bastion. Now we dont know if:
1. Arbiter judging him is skipped for cinematic reasons
or
2. the soul has no awareness of it until they reach their assigned destination.

And since we also dont know the path of a soul. Does the arbiter deem you totally irredeemable and send you to the maw? Or does the arbiter give you one last chance at revendreth and then if you fail send you to the maw.

Now since sylvanas ended up immediately at the maw. Lets say number 2 from the first part [a soul is not aware until it reaches its assigned destination] is true. Does that mean that she got sent there because the arbiter deemed her irredeemable? She hadnt gone totally crazy evil then. And if Kael can end up in revendreth for literally trying to get Kiljaeden into Azeroth, id say Sylvanas deserves a chance in revendreth too.

So based on that [IF THEY DONT RETCON EDGE OF THE NIGHT] my guess is, that due to Arthas getting dumped into the maw by uther, something allowed the jailor to reach out and drag sylvanas there.

Mind you. trick or not. It doesnt matter at this point. Because no amount of "i was tricked" will make up for Teldrassil and instigating the blood bath in BfA. Not to mention they already confirmed in Blizzcon that she is the Jailors lackey, is evil and has no relations not even to the loyalists who helped her in BfA. [But obviously one needs a disclaimer because with Blizzard who knows what tomorrow holds. Maybe theyll go back on that whole thing].

Remember that 9 val'kyr conveniently showed up when sylvanas commited suicide... And ressurected her by sacrificing themselves.

Those Valkyr, like Uther and Devos did, may have taken Sylvana's soul directly to the maw for the Jailer's plan.

[Powerogue]

Simply not true, undeath corrupted her, undead Sylvanas and living Sylvanas are pretty much exact opposites and unlike Arthas or Garrosh she never chose her fate, which is reflected by her original afterlife.

I disagree. Yes, we see how undeath tends to darken the outlook of those afflicted by it, but people have managed to stay good in spite of it. Undeath is not what changed Sylvanas. It was watching her hope crumble. If she was resurrected back into life tomorrow she would be the exact same monster she is today. That's the difference.

- - - Updated - - -

The thematic throughline, irrespective of all prior material is that all vengeance, all grievance - personal or group is wrong. Anyone not motivated purely by universal good is evil or morally equivalent to evil, be they Uther against the man who killed his king, slaughtered his people and damned him or Tyrande vis a vis the woman who destroyed her people to up a cosmic kill counter and the faction that was at her side until the last five minutes.

I'd argue it's a little more nuanced than that. That vengeance, while an understandable reaction to atrocities, is volatile and dangerous, threatening to consume you. The moment where you act on it at the expense of your values and your people is more what's deemed to be the dangerous tipping point to avoid turning to villainy.

Thanks for the Lilian Voss quote as well, where's that from? I assume some point past the end of the war campaign.

(edit: And I'm only now realizing the irony of Voss in particular, who absolutely let herself be consumed by all the vengeance ever, and still managed to get out the other side in one piece eventually. I still desperately want them to address the plot point that Calia Menethil was among the priests who let reformed Scarlet Crusade members into their fold.)

[bagina]

Undeath is not what changed Sylvanas. It was watching her hope crumble.

Nah, pretty sure it WAS the Undeath. And ya know, the whole mindrape, forced to murder people against your will thing... No biggie though

[zhimm1011]

my take on this whole thing is Sylvannas is doing the knife to the back bit against the jailer. she knows whats going on or at least most of it. She knows what now happens to souls for god or bad, shes sees this realm as another form of slavery where your judged with little choice of your own and sent someplace to suffer or serve. to this end she has allied with the jailer. not to further his ends but to eventually free herself from the chains fo life and the afterlife as she sees it "i will set us all free" she sees the afterlife as just another trap, i think in the end it will be shown she did what she did to further her agenda to break the cycle and end whatever is going on in the afterlife in her mind. i believe she did what she did to force our hand and to open our eyes to the truth "her truth". she wants us in shadowlands. to feed us to the maw? maybe, to serve the jailer maybe, but i think its because she knows only we can end it. time will tell

[Minikin]

Remember that 9 val'kyr conveniently showed up when sylvanas commited suicide... And ressurected her by sacrificing themselves.

Those Valkyr, like Uther and Devos did, may have taken Sylvana's soul directly to the maw for the Jailer's plan.

exactly.

*tin foil hat time*
so my current belief is (obviously i have absolutely nothing to support this currently) that frostmourne keeping all the souls and might be feeding something to the jailer. It seems to me that the jailer and the maw arent really given anima, or he might break out. However with the legion passing frostmourne to nerzhul and then arthas, frostmourne might have been feeding broken off souls to him OR once shattered those pieces might be headed to the maw if not to the arbiter. I mean if you are a being of Titan ++ power and you are a captive, you wouldnt need alot of power to break free of your chains. A little little little....little bit at a time allows you to bring out extensions of your power and get things in motion for the final release. So frostmourne being made, stolen, arthas and sylvanas might just be stages of his plan. I mean honestly he doesnt seem as much a captive of the maw. More like the only thing really keeping him back is the maw itself rather than a prison in the maw.
*tin foil hat off

if that does end up happening, well, people better get their flotation tubes ready because we will have a creaky door opening to sylvanas' redepemtion and the tidal wave of tears that will follow it.

[Combatbutler]

I disagree. Yes, we see how undeath tends to darken the outlook of those afflicted by it, but people have managed to stay good in spite of it. Undeath is not what changed Sylvanas. It was watching her hope crumble. If she was resurrected back into life tomorrow she would be the exact same monster she is today. That's the difference.

Yes it is, she is in constant rage modus due to it, and banshees in particular are tortured souls, so much so that even holding part of their essence is unsettling


https://wow.gamepedia.com/Argent_Reinforcements

Oh my...the banshee are very tortured souls indeed. Merely holding their essence is emotionally painful...

Make no mistake Sylvanas is a rotten monster, but to say she is worse than Arthas is a blatant lie.

[Powerogue]

Make no mistake Sylvanas is a rotten monster, but to say she is worse than Arthas is a blatant lie.

I would, actually. We see what Arthas is like still undead but with his soul back after we shattered his sword. Sylvanas has had her soul back in her body since WC3.

[TigTone]

Nah, pretty sure it WAS the Undeath. And ya know, the whole mindrape, forced to murder people against your will thing... No biggie though

Not to mention she was Resurrected into undeath more then once.

I’m damn sure that is not good for your already tortured soul.

[Combatbutler]

I would, actually. We see what Arthas is like still undead but with his soul back after we shattered his sword. Sylvanas has had her soul back in her body since WC3.

Arthas was in control for quite some time and he chose his fate, he was the one who tore ner'zhul apart, because unlike him Arthas regretted not a single thing he did. Heck he created the monster that is Sylvanas, he bears most of the blame of what she has become, merely through the fact that he raised and twisted her soul.

[Super Dickmann]

I'd argue it's a little more nuanced than that. That vengeance, while an understandable reaction to atrocities, is volatile and dangerous, threatening to consume you. The moment where you act on it at the expense of your values and your people is more what's deemed to be the dangerous tipping point to avoid turning to villainy.

Thanks for the Lilian Voss quote as well, where's that from? I assume some point past the end of the war campaign.

(edit: And I'm only now realizing the irony of Voss in particular, who absolutely let herself be consumed by all the vengeance ever, and still managed to get out the other side in one piece eventually. I still desperately want them to address the plot point that Calia Menethil was among the priests who let reformed Scarlet Crusade members into their fold.)

It's not merely dangerous in the eyes of the narrative, but amoral. Tyrande is considered a barking madwoman for believing in things like collective responsibility or even her dislike for Sylvanas. In turn, those after Sylvanas except her, even fucking Genn, are cast as being motivated by nothing but high-minded desire to stop a menace, in the same way that I look at my shopping list and feel a high-minded desire to go stock up on canned beans. The wish for revenge is human, a society traumatized by experience is human, conflict on bases other than universal good and evil are human and both have been baked into the franchise since Day 1. It can even still present them - that Bastion short was great. But we know it'll end with them prancing through a meadow with fucking Arthas at the end of it.

The quote is fom the pre-patch. Voss does not act in a state that's sensible or reflective of her own actions. Not only was Voss's personal hatred for necromancy entirely in keeping with the background, ditto that of the Scarlet Crusade, she never received a bit of stimulus against that sentiment. It's the biggest flaw with her BFA arc besides its ending - her joining Sylvanas as anything but the unofficial thing in Cataclysm where she was aimed in roughly the same direction as the Forsaken's enemies comes up against the wall of Sylvanas being a necromancer. A nicer necromancer to be sure, but Voss's adoption of that aspect of the Forsaken identity needed to be addressed in some way, given how she's later shown to be upset about Sylvanas not upholding that with Derek and assist with necromancy herself.

It's easier to read Voss as a proxy for a generic Forsaken and as what Blizzard want the Forsaken playerbase to think of Calia than as her own person. Applying that lens makes every action she takes far more understandable, especially in that parodic bit here and of course the infamous part with her dad. Lilian Voss would think twice about trusting anyone who praises her abusive father off-handedly, but Forsaken Playerbase Proxy as written by Blizzard less so. Every character in the pre-patch talks about what a great job Calia is doing saving lives and spirits, but her feats are entirely off-screen and it comes across as desperate shilling.

[Powerogue]

It's easier to read Voss as a proxy for a generic Forsaken and as what Blizzard want the Forsaken playerbase to think of Calia than as her own person. Applying that lens makes every action she takes far more understandable, especially in that parodic bit here and of course the infamous part with her dad. Lilian Voss would think twice about trusting anyone who praises her abusive father off-handedly, but Forsaken Playerbase Proxy as written by Blizzard less so. Every character in the pre-patch talks about what a great job Calia is doing saving lives and spirits, but her feats are entirely off-screen and it comes across as desperate shilling.

While I completely see how she comes off as that, and definitely think that she played dual role as "the comparatively good-natured forsaken playerbase proxy", I guess I just have more confidence in their writing than that. Blizzard would have had to remember her storyline with her brutally murdering her father when adding that bit of dialogue to Calia. It would be more concerning if it wasn't brought up at all.

It could be that Calia is exactly as boring as she looks and will remain so, or it could be that they're intentionally setting her up for failure and rejection when faced with the depraved side of the forsaken, with them very intentionally choosing Voss on purpose for that reason.

In the same way Arthas could be redeemed by the end, or not. Blizzard love subverting expectations for drama.



Part of me actually suspects that in both this Illidan example and forsaken leadership they're cheekily watching the community reaction to events to see how they want things to go. "Oh, the lightbound illidan arc isn't going over well? Hold on a patch, we'll make a new cutscene."

I definitely think they did that when writing the Mag'har scenario. It was almost point-for-point a response to people's criticisms of WOD. Remove time travel element? Check. Remove access to alternate reality from the picture? Check. Yrel should've been angry at the iron horde? Check. Punish Grommash for his actions? Check. Remove all other alt versions of existing characters? Check. Give brown orc customizations to playerbase? Checkarooni.

[Newname1234567890]

I really don't get this thread much. Nothing shown in Afterlives Bastion remotely suggests Slyvannas was wrongly send to the Maw.

When Uther died he didn't remember being brought before the Arbiter. He died and, as far as he could tell, woke up in Bastion. Why would Slyvannas?

However her Warcraft 3 death to the Edge of Night show that clearly the Arbiter considers things done in undeath when weighting a soul. While Ashbringer shows undead isn't a instant sentace to the Maw.

The takeway is Slyvannas is literally irredeemable and evil.

[Powerogue]

I really don't get this thread much. Nothing shown in Afterlives Bastion remotely suggests Slyvannas was wrongly send to the Maw.

When Uther died he didn't remember being brought before the Arbiter. He died and, as far as he could tell, woke up in Bastion. Why would Slyvannas?

However her Warcraft 3 death to the Edge of Night show that clearly the Arbiter considers things done in undeath when weighting a soul. While Ashbringer shows undead is a instant sentace to the Maw.

The takeway is Slyvannas is literally irredeemable and evil.

That's an interesting thing to note. It's weighing the soul. Do we consider Arthas to have been soulless from the moment he picked up Frostmourne ("your soul was one of the first it claimed" -Mal'ganis "Then I'll make due without one. What is the Lich King's Will?" -DK Arthas) and thus the soul not to be punished for those actions?

Obviously either way Sylvanas had hers since she reclaimed her body and free will and declared vengeance on Arthas at the latest, so everything else she's done since is her own fault exclusively.

What does a soul do, anyway? In this mismatched world of fiction where we walk by entities every day that manage to act without souls.

[Newname1234567890]

That's an interesting thing to note. It's weighing the soul. Do we consider Arthas to have been soulless from the moment he picked up Frostmourne ("your soul was one of the first it claimed" -Mal'ganis "Then I'll make due without one. What is the Lich King's Will?" -DK Arthas) and thus the soul not to be punished for those actions?

Obviously either way Sylvanas had hers since she reclaimed her body and free will and declared vengeance on Arthas at the latest, so everything else she's done since is her own fault exclusively.

Could be a fun quest to retrieve Arthas's soul to be correctly judged and him getting sent to another afterlife not the Maw. Could work for a redemption arc for Uther?

Based on Uther's soul seemingly being spilt in half I could see them making it so there are two souls a lower and a higher soul so to speak. One used in necromancy/fel and the other is what the Arbiter judges? Thus maybe soulless isn't totally souless? But that's an agressive amount of speculation.

[Super Dickmann]

While I completely see how she comes off as that, and definitely think that she played dual role as "the comparatively good-natured forsaken playerbase proxy", I guess I just have more confidence in their writing than that. Blizzard would have had to remember her storyline with her brutally murdering her father when adding that bit of dialogue to Calia. It would be more concerning if it wasn't brought up at all.

It could be that Calia is exactly as boring as she looks and will remain so, or it could be that they're intentionally setting her up for failure and rejection when faced with the depraved side of the forsaken, with them very intentionally choosing Voss on purpose for that reason.

In the same way Arthas could be redeemed by the end, or not. Blizzard love subverting expectations for drama.

I don't actually mind her in that role. I think there's some steps skipped as noted, but I think Voss going full circle from someone who didn't take easy to the Forsaken way, to someone who ultimately returns and wants other's transition into (Free-willed) undeath to be as gentle as possible and to prevent them from being targeted would value. I can also fully see her, more so than other Forsaken, for that reason too being someone who more easily accepts the role of the Horde and who'd put more weight into what goes on with Derek, even if I personally don't. I don't think she fits as leader, since there's a whole chain of command unaccounted for, but a guide for self-actualization - definitely. Voss is better in the Calia role than Calia is, because she actually is the ultimate representative of the life cycle of a reluctant Cata-era Forsaken who still went through all the troubles.

It's also why I'm not as charitable as you are on this point, even if the Illidan thing and the prophecy gives me slight pause. The shilling for Calia has been so universal, she has been so undercharacterized and boring despite this and Voss signals so blatantly that she'll step aside and anyone who thinks otherwise is a boob that I see no other way out. There's no reaction to that line about her dad. You and I and the audience know it's in very poor taste, but the story doesn't seem to notice or, given what we've talked about regarding themes before may consider it a good thing and to show Voss's 'growth', by having her remember her dad only positively despite what he put through her. I'd find the latter worse than the former, both in messaging and drama potential.

Part of me actually suspects that in both this Illidan example and forsaken leadership they're cheekily watching the community reaction to events to see how they want things to go. "Oh, the lightbound illidan arc isn't going over well? Hold on a patch, we'll make a new cutscene."

I definitely think they did that when writing the Mag'har scenario. It was almost point-for-point a response to people's criticisms of WOD. Remove time travel element? Check. Remove access to alternate reality from the picture? Check. Yrel should've been angry at the iron horde? Check. Punish Grommash for his actions? Check. Remove all other alt versions of existing characters? Check. Give brown orc customizations to playerbase? Checkarooni.

Illidan is one of those things where I don't legitimately know if the shilling at the start of the expansion for him was meant to come across as dissonant and stupid or if it just turned out that way and the writers played into it excellently by having him fry the windchime and before then open the way to Argus. In either case, both Malf and Tyrande's reactions to him, him making things all or die on the world's behalf by opening the way to Argus and so forth fit the character much better than the somewhat saccharine and high-minded way it was before. It was a skillful save, whether planned or not and it upped my enjoyment of the character.

I think WoD's setting and clan lore was always its strongest suit, so I had always been far more pro the AU Mag'har coming in than the classic Mag'har which, if anyone's honest to themselves, have next to nothing unique going for them short of being brown, that hadn't already been done and well with Garrosh, Cromush etc. and could still be followed up by them. Mind this is another point where I disagree. Again, some of us might view Yrel as being motivated by Grom sacrificing her sister to the void and her justifiable grievance with the Iron Horde and might even see the ambiguity in the narrative given what contradictory stories are told, but I legitimately don't know if that's meant to be intentional or we're meant to take her being brainwashed by AU Xe'ra at face value. I guess we'll find out. I like that plotline thus far. It's very hamhandedly writing, but cheesy and entertaining and brought a lot of elements I liked back.

@WonderZebra @Powerogue

We know Sylvanas was bound for a pleasant afterlife when she died the first time from Edge of Night, so the idea that she was inherently evil is both retarded and non-canon. We also know that Arthas had enough free will post-Frostmourne that he continually second-guessed himself per the book, contrary to his nice snarky self from WC3 and was so much of a detriment that, he not Ner'zhul, cut it out of his own volition to set aside that part of himself. Even then, enough of that spirit remained for him to not destroy the world. Arthas acted with some measure of volition. Even ignoring his free will later, which would give him a body count of three kingdoms and necromancy of a massive amount of its inhabitants to even BFA Sylvanas' two, his motivation had its moments.

'Damn the men, nothing will keep me from having my revenge' and 'These beasts have burnt your ships and kept you from going home' inform you pretty clearly about what kind of person Arthas was. Sylvanas was a smug bitch in life but ultimately a defender of her people who died doing so. Arthas' path to the sword was engineered for him, but while it couldn't end in Stratholme, and his call there is justifiable, both the business with the mercenaries and his attitude in the last mission well before he gets Frostmourne less so.

That said, having her be split in two like Uther would be such an abysmal idea and copout on such an uncountable number of levels that it doesn't even bear discussion and the writers would be out of their fucking minds to do it. It'd be Kerrigan on steroids. Her thinking she'd go to the Maw and the actions taken to avoid it bringing her there on the other hand is classic tragedy and works fine. Or rather, it would work fine if Blizzard didn't put even people who destroyed multiple planets on Revendreth. Though I guess Sylvanas, Kael and possibly Vashj were all involved in some kind of attempted omnicide were they to have succeeded?