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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsmang View Post
    BS! 2.5% representation in PVP that is! a mere side game!

    In PVE (the main game) the representation is 0.5% Sad isn't it? You wanna prioritize an extremely small percent over a significant one?

    worldofwargraphs com /pve-stats/classes
    and again, some stupid arguement. 2.5% SV, but BM is 1.1% and 0.2% for MM, so twice as many than ranged hunters. And yes, if you dont care about pvp - its your problem, but someone can care. And again you ignore ranged/melee problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurve1776 View Post
    in pvp both mm and bm are garbage, so naturally most pvp hunters would be survival, and survival just happens to be decent at pvp, but it is only decent at pvp and not much else.
    And BM just happens to be decent at pve with corruption scaling and raid mechanics. And doing more dps than SV, so choise is oblivious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurve1776 View Post
    And representation = how many people are playing. Not sure what you're getting at here?
    And again ignore ranged/melee problem and fact, that RLs prefer ranged over melee. And yes
    If there will be melee flavored raid(heh, i dont remember any since pandaria, maybe Nighthold), you will see a good amount of SV hunters in raids.
    But with current tuning and raid fantasy - yes, you will see a maximum ranged and minimum melee, just for utility or +5% magic damage.

    And if you say that - can we delete arcane mage or sub rogue? Its even less than SV.
    Last edited by Dancaris; 2020-09-04 at 05:31 AM.

  2. #102
    Aside from tuning, Melee Survival Hunter is a blast for me, VERY fun specc imo, it was however better in Legion compared to BFA.

    I would love to see more changes but i think it is ok to have one Hunter specc that is melee, why not?

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    and again, some stupid arguement. 2.5% SV, but BM is 1.1% and 0.2% for MM, so twice as many than ranged hunters. And yes, if you dont care about pvp - its your problem, but someone can care. And again you ignore ranged/melee problem.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And BM just happens to be decent at pve with corruption scaling and raid mechanics. And doing more dps than SV, so choise is oblivious.


    And again ignore ranged/melee problem and fact, that RLs prefer ranged over melee. And yes
    If there will be melee flavored raid(heh, i dont remember any since pandaria, maybe Nighthold), you will see a good amount of SV hunters in raids.
    But with current tuning and raid fantasy - yes, you will see a maximum ranged and minimum melee, just for utility or +5% magic damage.

    And if you say that - can we delete arcane mage or sub rogue? Its even less than SV.
    Bro PVP is a side game, you do pve to gear and everything else

  4. #104
    Stood in the Fire Krimzin's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, Survival is a niche class.
    Like anything else, when you have limited resources you work on specs that are played more they tend to be forgotten.
    Not saying that people wouldn't play Survival if it was a viable spec to do Content.
    Fact is in its current state, it is viable, it just isn't on the same level as Beastmaster or Marksman in Shadowland atm.

    I don't see Blizzard spending resources on a spec that no one plays.

    Here is a run down from the past tier from the beginning of 8.3
    There are total parses logged from the different Specs.

    Hunter Beast Mastery 167,517
    Hunter Marksmanship 9,411
    Hunter Survival 3,935


    Yes, I know BM was super strong in BFA and MM Sucked, Survival was middle of the pack and still wasnt played.

    Id like them to put some time into Survival, but I just dont see it happening.
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Krimzin View Post
    Unfortunately, Survival is a niche class.
    Like anything else, when you have limited resources you work on specs that are played more they tend to be forgotten.
    Not saying that people wouldn't play Survival if it was a viable spec to do Content.
    Fact is in its current state, it is viable, it just isn't on the same level as Beastmaster or Marksman in Shadowland atm.

    I don't see Blizzard spending resources on a spec that no one plays.

    Here is a run down from the past tier from the beginning of 8.3
    There are total parses logged from the different Specs.

    Hunter Beast Mastery 167,517
    Hunter Marksmanship 9,411
    Hunter Survival 3,935


    Yes, I know BM was super strong in BFA and MM Sucked, Survival was middle of the pack and still wasnt played.

    Id like them to put some time into Survival, but I just dont see it happening.


    Survival won't be played as much. It will continue to sucks and being aids. I lost hope altogether on this spec. We gave blizzzard chance(s) and They still don't know what they are doing so rest assured they must be replying on throwing darts to wheel board and do that or whatever the fuck they are doing. I mean come on, nearly 3 xpacs in a row and STILL DON'T FUCKING KNOW WHAT TO DO? Why even bother it in the first place turning into melee?

  6. #106
    Stood in the Fire Krimzin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trapmaster View Post
    Survival won't be played as much. It will continue to sucks and being aids. I lost hope altogether on this spec. We gave blizzzard chance(s) and They still don't know what they are doing so rest assured they must be replying on throwing darts to wheel board and do that or whatever the fuck they are doing. I mean come on, nearly 3 xpacs in a row and STILL DON'T FUCKING KNOW WHAT TO DO? Why even bother it in the first place turning into melee?
    Actually, In BFA Survival was viable. It was middle of the road in DPS. When played well, Ive seen Survival put of very good numbers.
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  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    and again, some stupid arguement. 2.5% SV, but BM is 1.1% and 0.2% for MM, so twice as many than ranged hunters. And yes, if you dont care about pvp - its your problem, but someone can care. And again you ignore ranged/melee problem.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And BM just happens to be decent at pve with corruption scaling and raid mechanics. And doing more dps than SV, so choise is oblivious.


    And again ignore ranged/melee problem and fact, that RLs prefer ranged over melee. And yes
    If there will be melee flavored raid(heh, i dont remember any since pandaria, maybe Nighthold), you will see a good amount of SV hunters in raids.
    But with current tuning and raid fantasy - yes, you will see a maximum ranged and minimum melee, just for utility or +5% magic damage.

    And if you say that - can we delete arcane mage or sub rogue? Its even less than SV.
    in pvp it takes the other two specs being useless to compel people to play survival.

    in pve the only reason to bring a survival hunter is if they do ridiculous amounts of damage, otherwise no one will be bothered since they don't really bring anything else. There's more than twice as many MM logs than survival in current tier, despite survival being in a pretty good place. Just look at the numbers, all of the classes in the same area (both melee and raged) in the overall dps rankings have wayyyy more participation than survival (except for sub rogue, which is to be expected).

    Oh, btw, in nighthold when survival was particularly strong, as you mentioned, survival participation and representation was still ridiculously low. MM, which was worse by a good margin, and had half as much representation as bm, still had many times more logs than survival.

    Nighthold: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/11
    Last edited by Kurve1776; 2020-09-05 at 03:55 AM.
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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurve1776 View Post
    in pve the only reason to bring a survival hunter is if they do ridiculous amounts of damage, otherwise no one will be bothered since they don't really bring anything else.
    As its been with sub, arcane and arms, demo and MM. Classes with 0 specific utility get place in raids when its OP damage. It is no reason to delete melee hunter.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    You keep saying “it’s not true” when people bring up how the specs are interchangeable. So you tell me how they are different. Keep in mind, I’m not asking for difference in theme such as dot damage vs pet damage, I’m asking for the button presses themselves.
    Feel free to even use WoD when the biggest change was SV losing KS.
    We have been over this several times over the past few years so maybe refer to one of those posts or the many others on the same vein. How about starting with the fact that MM and SV shared very few damage abilities (2 in total) and no passives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    They aren’t though. They all have differing interactions with spells and CDs, offering differing playstyle between the 3. Hunters were interchangeable with the exception of maybe 1 extra ability. Hunters literally used almost the exact same number of abilities in the exact same way.
    No they didn't. I'm really sick of you playing the "reasonable centrist" card every thread despite the fact that you're always abjectly lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    As I’ve stated previously, there has always been interest in melee Hunters, especially when NPCs like Rexxar became more prominent. The difference is those people didn’t want it to replace a spec, they wanted a 4th spec.
    For someone who apparently didn't want us to lose a ranged spec you sure do spend a ton of time revising history to try to justify us losing a ranged spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    That is quite a lot of ignorant folks here.
    "Nobody wants melee hunter", "Its a joke spec", "MY FUN BACK IN WOTLK REMOVED, BLIZZ?!!" and other very inteligent replies here.
    Why cant you understand that you are not nearly a majority of players? That there are a big bulk of people, that like it? And want to be like you know, hunters in wow?
    Given that it is perpetually one of the least-played specs in the game evidently there aren't a lot of people who like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Draka from WoD trailer, Rexxar, even Nathanos back in a days. They are all melee. They are hunters. And to remove a melee spec from a class just to support your ego is wrong.
    Draka is not a Hunter, Nathanos is not melee, and Rexxar is already represented in the class via the use of pets.

    Removing a ranged spec was wrong but they still did that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    What to do with all of that Highmountain tauren hunters? With Talonclaw? What to do with people, that like that spec? And to revert it to WoTLK times? You will be the first to blame developers for boring spec and absence of ideas.
    I really don't care. They shouldn't have retconned/invented a bunch of lore to justify melee Hunters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    To me - melee spec should have become BM. Its a better fantasy to iconic hunters. Fighting alongside animals fits more to BM than to SV. And some animal-like spells fits more to BM. Strike like a raptor and with a raptor, sting like a bee.
    No Hunter spec should be melee in the baseline. At the very most there should be a Gladiator-style talent for BM that allows for a melee playstyle.

  10. #110
    Hmm on the ptr SV can now use tranq shot without having a ranged weapon equipped but still can't use arcane shot. I would like SV to be able to use arcane shot with their little mini-crossbow. Arcane shot would do less damage than mongoose bite/raptor strike but it would allow SV to dps from afar when needed (can't always have aspect of the eagle up). Allowing arcane shot to be used with the mini/witcher crossbow would really help soldify the melee/ranged hybrid role of SV.

    At the same time (unless it has been fixed) there is no animation for tranq shot, you don't take out the crossbow and shoot it off like you do with serpent sting, rather the shot just kind of magically shoots from your body...

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    We have been over this several times over the past few years so maybe refer to one of those posts or the many others on the same vein. How about starting with the fact that MM and SV shared very few damage abilities (2 in total) and no passives.



    No they didn't. I'm really sick of you playing the "reasonable centrist" card every thread despite the fact that you're always abjectly lying.



    For someone who apparently didn't want us to lose a ranged spec you sure do spend a ton of time revising history to try to justify us losing a ranged spec.



    Given that it is perpetually one of the least-played specs in the game evidently there aren't a lot of people who like it.



    Draka is not a Hunter, Nathanos is not melee, and Rexxar is already represented in the class via the use of pets.

    Removing a ranged spec was wrong but they still did that.



    I really don't care. They shouldn't have retconned/invented a bunch of lore to justify melee Hunters.



    No Hunter spec should be melee in the baseline. At the very most there should be a Gladiator-style talent for BM that allows for a melee playstyle.
    You know, just your opinion, man.
    Draka in trailer was shown as hunter, rexxar is melee hunter with 2 axes and is hunter and nathanos wear 2 axes in waist, so you are wrong. Hunters in lore has melee role, you just cant accent that and headcanoning some BS about ranged only hunter. You dont want it - you dont use it. And quit your moaning.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    We have been over this several times over the past few years so maybe refer to one of those posts or the many others on the same vein. How about starting with the fact that MM and SV shared very few damage abilities (2 in total) and no passives.



    No they didn't. I'm really sick of you playing the "reasonable centrist" card every thread despite the fact that you're always abjectly lying.



    For someone who apparently didn't want us to lose a ranged spec you sure do spend a ton of time revising history to try to justify us losing a ranged spec.



    Given that it is perpetually one of the least-played specs in the game evidently there aren't a lot of people who like it.



    Draka is not a Hunter, Nathanos is not melee, and Rexxar is already represented in the class via the use of pets.

    Removing a ranged spec was wrong but they still did that.



    I really don't care. They shouldn't have retconned/invented a bunch of lore to justify melee Hunters.



    No Hunter spec should be melee in the baseline. At the very most there should be a Gladiator-style talent for BM that allows for a melee playstyle.
    I never said sharing abilities, I said they played the same. The button presses and the order are almost 90% interchangeable. You couldn’t even do what I asked and instead had to resort to blanket denial and going back to making up an argument I didn’t make.
    You let me know how Mages played the same. Don’t say they cast spells. We both know that’s not what I’m stating. I’ve even stated in the past that Rogues were similar to the Hunter issue in that they were almost interchangeable between Sin and Combat with how they played and number of abilities. Your issue is you keep relying on thematics of the specs to settle your arguments for you, which is not good for your argument because I’ve never discussed theme.
    How am I revising history? There have been threads before about people talking about melee Hunters. Who ever said I tried to justify losing a range spec? Have I ever done that? I have always taken the stance that I’d rather Blizzard have made a 4th spec and everyone could have been happy.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Krimzin View Post
    Unfortunately, Survival is a niche class.
    Like anything else, when you have limited resources you work on specs that are played more they tend to be forgotten.
    Not saying that people wouldn't play Survival if it was a viable spec to do Content.
    Fact is in its current state, it is viable, it just isn't on the same level as Beastmaster or Marksman in Shadowland atm.

    I don't see Blizzard spending resources on a spec that no one plays.

    Here is a run down from the past tier from the beginning of 8.3
    There are total parses logged from the different Specs.

    Hunter Beast Mastery 167,517
    Hunter Marksmanship 9,411
    Hunter Survival 3,935


    Yes, I know BM was super strong in BFA and MM Sucked, Survival was middle of the pack and still wasnt played.

    Id like them to put some time into Survival, but I just dont see it happening.
    is there any way you can see the spec breakdown of tiers after they changed sv from when it was ranged?
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  14. #114
    Stood in the Fire Krimzin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idunnowatdo View Post
    is there any way you can see the spec breakdown of tiers after they changed sv from when it was ranged?
    I just went to warcraft logs and pulled all info from the beginning of the tier. So i'm not sure what other info it may show.
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    The past of the class absolutely dictates that Survival should be ranged, actually.

    https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png

    Clearly Survival is not the funnest Hunter spec when it's perpetually unpopular and we get threads like this one all the time.
    Ah I see you didn't read what I said and decided to comment on it as if you did, I said the past of HUNTERS and the very lore surrounding the core concepts of the hunter doesn't dictate that they (Farstriders,Rangers,Sentinels, Pathfinders) only need to be range. Meaning...they could be range and melee, as they were in the past with various melee attacks and range ones, not sure how you missed what I clearly said, and tried to correct me as If I was wrong while not comprehending what was said at all.

    ....and furthermore, the very image you linked said it is primarily a range attacker, which means...as I said, it doesn't just need to be just a range combatant, damn near exactly what I stated in the first sentence of the image you found and tried to correct me on what I claimed, while further proving my point lol

    And it being fun, doesn't have anything to do with the people complaining about it not being range, it can be fun and still hated for not being what people want. Especially from those that played it prior to its new iteration, or those that just want a range classes. I'm a melee guy, so I enjoy it, thats not to say it doesn't have its problems
    Last edited by Evaddon; 2020-09-06 at 08:27 PM.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    As its been with sub, arcane and arms, demo and MM. Classes with 0 specific utility get place in raids when its OP damage. It is no reason to delete melee hunter.
    The other specs you listed (minus sub, rip, and I guess to an extent arms) are all at least somewhat represented even when they arent top tier.

    I mean, look at the nighthold logs, when Survival was considered "really good," and notice that even the bottom performing spec, destro lock, has 3x as many logs.

    And look at current tier logs, literally the only spec with less representation than survival is sub, despite survival "doing better" than MM. It only wins by around 200 too. While 90 THOUSAND people have logged with BM. so it's not a lack of hunters, its a lack of people wanting to play SV.

    Also, it's one of two specs with <1000 logs.

    People don't like survival. It'll have to be extremely OP to even be considered by people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by idunnowatdo View Post
    is there any way you can see the spec breakdown of tiers after they changed sv from when it was ranged?
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/10

    Here's Emerald Nightmare if that's what you're asking.
    Last edited by Kurve1776; 2020-09-08 at 01:34 PM.
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  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurve1776 View Post
    The other specs you listed (minus sub, rip, and I guess to an extent arms) are all at least somewhat represented even when they arent top tier.

    I mean, look at the nighthold logs, when Survival was considered "really good," and notice that even the bottom performing spec, destro lock, has 3x as many logs.

    And look at current tier logs, literally the only spec with less representation than survival is sub, despite survival "doing better" than MM. It only wins by around 200 too. While 90 THOUSAND people have logged with BM. so it's not a lack of hunters, its a lack of people wanting to play SV.

    Also, it's one of two specs with <1000 logs.

    People don't like survival. It'll have to be extremely OP to even be considered by people.
    The Nighthold logs are pretty irrelevant. NH was at a time when it wasn’t as easy to have your artifact offspec at a high standing. Most players probably didn’t even have SV that high as most players at the time complained about how much AP they needed, and/or made fun of the people who did invest the time to have maxed out weapons. SV wasn’t even really discussed in NH until an actual high end guild used them because of being melee and cheesing mechanics on Guldan.

    SV and MM are pretty close in terms of damage on most of Nya’lotha, with MM actually having higher damage than SV on some fights. Now, I’m not saying that’s the case for every fight, just some; however, they are both on the low end compared to every other spec, let alone BM. They also have extremely low numbers of logs compared to BM. Saying SV is unpopular but ignoring MM being unpopular is disingenuous. Yes, I know MM has over double of SV, but when it’s 738 vs 1,816 vs 90,307...ninety-freaking-thousand and some change, then they are both extremely unpopular.

    Please don’t mistake what I am stating. I don’t want to get into a debate of whether SV is unpopular because it’s disliked or its unpopular because of damage. Both arguments are just as likely. We truly won’t know which it is until Blizzard actually makes it play like a real melee dps.
    Give SV the same 1 sec GCD and 5% parry as all other melee have. Most importantly, tune the spec to actually be competitive with all the other melee. If Blizzard did that and SV still fails as a spec and the popularity contest I will conpletely back the debate that it’s unpopular solely because it was changed from a range dps spec.

  18. #118
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    This topic made me curious, so I copied over an alt survival hunter from retail - and yeah, SL's version is all but identical aside from from returning abilities like Kill Shot and Eyes of the Beast. It still feels good to play (one of the better-designed melee specs IMO), but anyone hoping for significant additions or alterations is in for some disappointment.

    Mind you the covenant stuff (which I hadn't unlocked on the copied hunter) will probably shake stuff up a bit.

    Edit: looks like there are actually several other ranged attacks in the spellbook (Arcane Shot, Tranq, Steady Shot) but they all require a ranged weapon equipped.
    Last edited by Mirishka; 2020-09-08 at 02:22 PM.
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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    The Nighthold logs are pretty irrelevant. NH was at a time when it wasn’t as easy to have your artifact offspec at a high standing. Most players probably didn’t even have SV that high as most players at the time complained about how much AP they needed, and/or made fun of the people who did invest the time to have maxed out weapons. SV wasn’t even really discussed in NH until an actual high end guild used them because of being melee and cheesing mechanics on Guldan.

    SV and MM are pretty close in terms of damage on most of Nya’lotha, with MM actually having higher damage than SV on some fights. Now, I’m not saying that’s the case for every fight, just some; however, they are both on the low end compared to every other spec, let alone BM. They also have extremely low numbers of logs compared to BM. Saying SV is unpopular but ignoring MM being unpopular is disingenuous. Yes, I know MM has over double of SV, but when it’s 738 vs 1,816 vs 90,307...ninety-freaking-thousand and some change, then they are both extremely unpopular.

    Please don’t mistake what I am stating. I don’t want to get into a debate of whether SV is unpopular because it’s disliked or its unpopular because of damage. Both arguments are just as likely. We truly won’t know which it is until Blizzard actually makes it play like a real melee dps.
    Give SV the same 1 sec GCD and 5% parry as all other melee have. Most importantly, tune the spec to actually be competitive with all the other melee. If Blizzard did that and SV still fails as a spec and the popularity contest I will conpletely back the debate that it’s unpopular solely because it was changed from a range dps spec.
    Fair point on Nighthold. And I should have been more clear in saying that MM is also underrepresented af, and is also in a really bad spot. My point was to say that even MM which is also having representation issues has double the amount of logs as SV. My original "tirade" into the logs was in response to the guy claiming that "most people like and enjoy SV, and the people that are saying it's bad are a small minority." I haven't seriously raided in a long time, so I'm just using the numbers that I have access to.

    I should have probably just stopped responding to the bait but I'm bored at work so here we are lol.
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  20. #120
    It isnt just SV Hunter that got no changes.
    The vast majority of specs got no changes or just 1-2 talents changed. Its just Shadowlands beta.

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