Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    There is no story relevant content for covenats outside of story during leveling. Its all grind without any context or lore.
    cant imagine this. something have to come in 9.1, 9.2 and 9.3. or do you think about a WoD debacle ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is in relation to the work. The number of class order halls is larger then covenants. Covenants do not require a separate quests, lore, rewards, designs etc for each class. Faction Neutral hubs are a perfect compromise. It allows you to create extra stuff but still maximize the value.
    yep, maybe this is the right starting point. maybe i should think about like „if i were Blizz and wanna have differences and decisions, but keep investment as low as possible...“

    maybe i should take the time for a deeper look at beta and interwebz and then deconstruct the single parts of Covenant concept and look what the 4x work efforts really are. maybe i come to the conclusion that it is as cheap as possible, whilst getting best of both worlds/ideas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is in relation to the work. The number of class order halls is larger then covenants. Covenants do not require a separate quests, lore, rewards, designs etc for each class. Faction Neutral hubs are a perfect compromise. It allows you to create extra stuff but still maximize the value.

    on the other side, it needs at least 4 x quests, lore, rewards, designs. hmm...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Adocul View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out what you're actually arguing or trying to bring up other than it's just better as covenants.

    Are you saying that having one unique ability per spec per covenant is bad design or that it is at all similar to Class Halls? Because it's not. They reduced the amount of segregation by a ton from classes to a pick 1 of 4. Which is a FOTM "pick what's best" that's said on the forums/discords or pick what you want. I don't see anything at all wrong from either systems Class Halls (which were definitely cool, but I can see why unless you played alts you're missing story content and context) or Covenants. Not to mention you can switch with a heavy investment to do so.
    i dont wanna „bring up“ anything. i dont „say“ anything here. i just dont get a few things and just asked for opinions, to get a better understanding or a point of view, that explain Blizzards actions a bit better to me.

    as weird as this sounds in 2020, when every second kid wanna totally convince you, why his opinion is the best and only meaningful in universe: i just started this thread, by being simply interested in opinions of others, since i do not fully get, why Blizz go this route again, in contrast to their statement.

    i know, it sounds weird, on mmoc, to be just interested in opinions of others... but hey, whatever floats my boat
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-08-30 at 05:09 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Mabye you should start reading quest texts.
    Didn't help if you played alliance BfA... you missed out most of that anyway.

    Due to COVID-19, Germany is running out of sausages and cheese.
    The government considers this to be the Wurst Käse scenario

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    cant imagine this. something have to come in 9.1, 9.2 and 9.3. or do you think about a WoD debacle ?
    There certainly is more lore context after you join a covenant and go through their respective campaigns. When doing in the initial campaign while leveling 50 to 60, you get a solid idea of the main area of conflict in each covenant. However, questing experience has each covenant's story end before everything is resolved (analogous to you wining a major battle when you complete each zone while leveling, but the war is still ongoing with future battles ahead). Once you join a covenant, you pick up basically where the leveling story left off, and you'll only experience it fully if you join that covenant.

    No matter what you do in most RPGs, you'll get enough context to understand the overarching story, delving into the minutia being a very optional task. How that differs from some player's experience with BfA was that entire major plotpoints are missed or skipped over to where, as Alliance, you had no idea what the Uldir raid was even about. So far, Shadowlands is designed where you will get the general overarching story. Also, it's still beta, and not only are the max level campaign questlines for the covenants not all done, but also some are bugged to where you can't continue right now.

    More towards the OP: Blizz cut down on a LOT of work compared to Legion because of how this system is implemented. As others have said, there's 4 central factions instead of a class hall for ever class. Furthermore, covenant spells are class-oriented, not spec oriented, cutting down number of unique abilities they have to make by 2/3. Soulbinds feel very similar to Legion artifacts, but they're class-neutral in terms of basic structure. Even the unique covenant rewards are way less than the amount of effort Legion required.

    Another aspect of how this is different from 'wasting time on content that not everyone will see' is that it provides a motivation to make alts if you choose to see every storyline, or invest in covenant-hopping to do it all on one character. If you've played any RPG, you'll know immediately that you always get to experience the main storyline, but side-events or more in-depth lore/exposure to certain stories or details almost always require multiple playthroughs to see. This also applies to getting certain gear or powers, as I haven't played an RPG as of late that lets you get absolutely everything in one playthrough... and if it does, it requires a LOT of extra work. Much of the WoW population has probably gotten used to having their cake and eating it, too. In the long term, that's not healthy for the game. The direction of development that covenants demonstrate is very indicative that Blizz realizes they've made a lot of mistakes in this regard, and they're changing directions.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  4. #24
    I feel it should also be noted that Shadowlands is the most alt friendly xpac to date. Leveling from 1 to 50 via questing is going to take a tiny fraction of the time it did to level from 1-120. If you really want to experience all 4 Covenants, it's a far easier task having 4 max level toons in Shadowlands than it was having 12 max level toons in Legion.

  5. #25
    Well, if you only want to play one character, do the covenant swapping; they made it a lot easier now than it was initially. If you don't want to do that, level up one more alt. BfA required three characters to get through all the story (Alliance, Horde Rebel, Horde Loyalist). This is only slightly more work to 100% the content without using the covenant swapping (which again, you can do if you don't want alts). I don't think it's that inefficient of design in order to deliver a story with sufficient options and details, and it's very different from Legion where you had to play every spec (not just class) to see everything.

  6. #26
    Pandaren Monk Rusken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,982
    Given that alts have the ability to choose a Covenant from the minute they reach Oribos and level through the campaign, mixed with how quick leveling is now it's not a lot of extra work to experience that content if you want to. If you insist on sticking to one character then you always miss out on some things.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by iperson View Post
    alliance really misssed out on the content in bfa
    Kul Tiras zones -especially Drustvar- are far better than anything in Wakanda IMHO.

    Uldir made no sense from Alliance POV though.

  8. #28
    Quick everyone! Change covenants to (X covenant) as (Y covenant that was previously meta) is receiving some crippling nerfs!!1

    -The people defending covenants a month from now, as if they aren't already redoing their sims to each and every balancing tweak Blizz makes during the beta.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sentynel View Post
    Kul Tiras zones -especially Drustvar- are far better than anything in Wakanda IMHO.

    Uldir made no sense from Alliance POV though.
    Dear god all the Wakanda references they made out of Zandalar was fucking awful.

    Blizz really wishes they were Disney lmao

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by rayvio View Post
    you can switch covenants, so it's not quite the same
    also we'll be introduced to each covenant before making a choice between them, rather than being completely isolated from the other class halls and their stories like we were in Legion

    we also just had a massive amount of new races introduced, encouraging more people to level alts so Blizz may well have changed their opinion on that
    You can but you really won.
    It's not like you just push a button.
    You can also not change back without it taking a huge amount of time.

    The covenant system is like orders but just worse.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    So what happened was that the Horde ended up in Zandalar and got to meet the King. He sent the Horde out to do some errands for him. In Zuldazar they dealt with Zul's treachery and killed lots of trolls. In Nazmir they had to deal with Blood Trolls who worshipped death and what worse is. Their Loa died. But in Uldir they were waking up some titan robot and the Horde got to smash him a bit. Horde met Bwonsamdi. He is a loa and enjoys making bargains. In Voldun they were sent to investigate a bad lookin troll. He had some plans to trick the horde to do some silly shit. The horde met fox people. They were in War with snake people. But not all snake people were bad and good snake people had war with bad snake people. Then the horde found the bad looking troll. They followed him into a cave or something were he gave his life to wake up Mythrax the cithraxx. Together with the King the horde ran back to the city to stop Mythraxx the cithraxx to awaken an old god blob in Uldir together with Zul. Horde did not succeed.

    Phew. This is why we went into Uldir.
    Well fuck me, that actually sounds interesting. So hordes got backstory on 3 of the bosses in uldir! fucking blizzard, always favoring hordes...

    Meanwhile alliance got a pirate story about a fat bitch who wanted to become queen. we got a witchhunt story in drustvar that was pretty good i guess. and don't get me started on the disjointed story that was stromsong.. sure it did halfassedly lead to shrine and the old god presence of nzoth but that was rly tame al around and with alot of pointless filler content from faction conflic and later some oildrilling goblins...
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  11. #31
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    The Lookout
    Posts
    20,457
    Why should People who enjoy being able to play multiple different stories/aesthetics for different characters be limited because some idiots only want to play 1 character and cry about it?

    Also People still crying about covenants are the absolute fucking worst types of gamers and I don't give a fuck if you quit the game.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Quick everyone! Change covenants to (X covenant) as (Y covenant that was previously meta) is receiving some crippling nerfs!!1

    -The people defending covenants a month from now, as if they aren't already redoing their sims to each and every balancing tweak Blizz makes during the beta.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Dear god all the Wakanda references they made out of Zandalar was fucking awful.

    Blizz really wishes they were Disney lmao
    There was more than 1?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    There certainly is more lore context after you join a covenant and go through their respective campaigns. When doing in the initial campaign while leveling 50 to 60, you get a solid idea of the main area of conflict in each covenant. However, questing experience has each covenant's story end before everything is resolved (analogous to you wining a major battle when you complete each zone while leveling, but the war is still ongoing with future battles ahead). Once you join a covenant, you pick up basically where the leveling story left off, and you'll only experience it fully if you join that covenant.

    No matter what you do in most RPGs, you'll get enough context to understand the overarching story, delving into the minutia being a very optional task. How that differs from some player's experience with BfA was that entire major plotpoints are missed or skipped over to where, as Alliance, you had no idea what the Uldir raid was even about. So far, Shadowlands is designed where you will get the general overarching story. Also, it's still beta, and not only are the max level campaign questlines for the covenants not all done, but also some are bugged to where you can't continue right now.

    More towards the OP: Blizz cut down on a LOT of work compared to Legion because of how this system is implemented. As others have said, there's 4 central factions instead of a class hall for ever class. Furthermore, covenant spells are class-oriented, not spec oriented, cutting down number of unique abilities they have to make by 2/3. Soulbinds feel very similar to Legion artifacts, but they're class-neutral in terms of basic structure. Even the unique covenant rewards are way less than the amount of effort Legion required.

    Another aspect of how this is different from 'wasting time on content that not everyone will see' is that it provides a motivation to make alts if you choose to see every storyline, or invest in covenant-hopping to do it all on one character. If you've played any RPG, you'll know immediately that you always get to experience the main storyline, but side-events or more in-depth lore/exposure to certain stories or details almost always require multiple playthroughs to see. This also applies to getting certain gear or powers, as I haven't played an RPG as of late that lets you get absolutely everything in one playthrough... and if it does, it requires a LOT of extra work. Much of the WoW population has probably gotten used to having their cake and eating it, too. In the long term, that's not healthy for the game. The direction of development that covenants demonstrate is very indicative that Blizz realizes they've made a lot of mistakes in this regard, and they're changing directions.
    yep, but even with class centric spells 1 player choose 1 of 48 (4 Covenants and 12 classes) abilities and miss out the other 47. not as bad as spec centric, but still a lot of abilities each player never see.

    i just say this, not because i have concerns with missing the other 47 abilities and „want to see them all“. its more, like i said in opening post, that Blizz has to design, balance and maintain 48 abilities, when every player from his perspective just use 1. same base behaviour/problematics as in Legion imo and not super efficient on Blizzards side (at least when considering Ions statement).
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-08-30 at 11:48 AM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    Why should People who enjoy being able to play multiple different stories/aesthetics for different characters be limited because some idiots only want to play 1 character and cry about it?

    Also People still crying about covenants are the absolute fucking worst types of gamers and I don't give a fuck if you quit the game.
    You're cute

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    Well fuck me, that actually sounds interesting. So hordes got backstory on 3 of the bosses in uldir! fucking blizzard, always favoring hordes...

    Meanwhile alliance got a pirate story about a fat bitch who wanted to become queen. we got a witchhunt story in drustvar that was pretty good i guess. and don't get me started on the disjointed story that was stromsong.. sure it did halfassedly lead to shrine and the old god presence of nzoth but that was rly tame al around and with alot of pointless filler content from faction conflic and later some oildrilling goblins...
    Yeah, I play both horde and alliance. It's kinda weird this setup, and I don't think we get this again tbh. I did like Drustvar a lot though, as a standalone zone and story it's good. But seeing all 3 zones are like this, it was too much of a disjointed story for sure. Both Tiragarde and Stormsong was more related to patch 8.2 and just a tiny bit of 8.3(N'Zoth as you say) and Azshara-connection, so the Alliance kinda had that. But then you get the same issue. The Horde story was more centered on Uldir than Alliance story was on Eternal Palace/N'Zoth though, that's for sure. And both got the Ashvane relation to Azshara in Nazjatar anyway.

    The Horde got a straight up connection with the raid while Alliance just have some lesser stories towards the main one. The Alliance story was more about Jaina and the Kul Tiran than anything else.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Mestalis View Post
    I feel it should also be noted that Shadowlands is the most alt friendly xpac to date. Leveling from 1 to 50 via questing is going to take a tiny fraction of the time it did to level from 1-120. If you really want to experience all 4 Covenants, it's a far easier task having 4 max level toons in Shadowlands than it was having 12 max level toons in Legion.
    if Blizz changed their stance or their data now shows a lot more of alt playing than after their/Ions statement before BfA (i do not believe that, especially after BfA), this totally makes sense.

    that said, overall you are definetelly right here, in general. and in comparison to Legion SL , definetely seems way more alt friendly.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-08-30 at 11:50 AM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Furthermore, covenant spells are class-oriented, not spec oriented, cutting down number of unique abilities they have to make by 2/3.
    Amusingly, making 4 new spells per class is "more" abilities than just making one new ability per spec. They have addressed this by making most of the abilities bland and boring, and nerfing ones that randomly happen to be powerful for a particular spec - compared to making a single new ability for each spec that synergises well with existing abilities.

  18. #38
    Banned Venziir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Where Thrall and the Horde needs me to be
    Posts
    22,435
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    i have 5 chars at 120...

    and i still don't know why we went into uldir,

    Ive no idea who bwonsamdi is...

    and whats up with all the snake folks in the desert?

    Making content for only a portion of their playerbase has been a thing for a while...
    Inside Uldir, Bran tells you exactly why you are there.

    You meet Bwonsamdi in both the Alliance War Campaign in Nazmir and in Battle for Dazar'alor.

    The Sethraki are, again, a people you meet (and even quest with a bit) during the Alliance War Campaign in Vol'dun.

    I get your point of how the Alliance are, kinda, in the dark regarding those things. But then again, they really aren't if you pay attention. Unlike the Horde who are stumbling blind in all of Kul Tiras, especially Drustvar.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    i have 5 chars at 120...

    and i still don't know why we went into uldir,

    Ive no idea who bwonsamdi is...

    and whats up with all the snake folks in the desert?

    Making content for only a portion of their playerbase has been a thing for a while...
    You are a prime example of what I talk about. All the information you seek is right there in the game, even in LFR, you you didn't bother to pay attention to a single thing and still want to blame Blizzard for your inability to pay attention.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by SirBeef View Post
    You are a prime example of what I talk about. All the information you seek is right there in the game, even in LFR, you you didn't bother to pay attention to a single thing and still want to blame Blizzard for your inability to pay attention.
    This kind of people are lore lovers as much as they are world first raiders. As long as story isnt shafted into theor face trough voice lines/cinematics and giant dialogs they have no idea whats going on.. They skip all quest texts, dont read npc dialogs and wonder why story isnt explained. Some people even complain about story being told in books. If you would actualy love warcraft lore you would have no problem to read those books and you would by hyped for every new books realease.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •