Covenants from a Blizzard perspective - What i do not get

[Niwes]

Hey folks,

not long before release of BfA, in an Interview or some article, Blizzard (or better: Ion Hazzikostas) stated that they will not repeat something like Legendaries and Class Order Halls of Legion ever again. Because since most ppl (> 80%) only play a single main character and therefore just 1 of 12 classes, above stuff was a huge investment on Blizzards side, any player just see a 12th of. This means virtually 11 of 12 content parts Blizz creates, never reaches the player base aka they invest 12x the time for content every player experience. Which is extremely inefficient. Therefore Blizzard do not wanna repeat this.

I tried to quickly find that article in the archives, but was not successful. Maybe some of you has more luck. But i think most long term loyal players remembering that.

That said: Now, what i do not get from a Blizzard perspective, is the following:

Are not Covenants nearly the same and have the same problem ???

Lets look at it:

Lets say most ppl play 1 character, this means they see 1 of 4 Covenants. Aka 25% of Covenant content. Ofc this is better than 1/12th, like above. Lets further remember that there are 12 classes with 12 Covenants abilities of 4 Covenants. This means:

1 player see 1 Covenant ability out of 48 existing abilities, that need to be balanced, maintained, designed.

Is this, all in all, not the same fuking inefficiency, like Legion, that they said they want not repeat ???

PS: Plz do not discuss the fact here, that there are ppl playing alts. Ofc there are. But as Blizzard said (and they have data) it is a rather small minority. This thread is about the majority and about ppl playing 1 main character.

So, is this not hell of inefficient again, from a Blizzard perspective ?

(Sorry for the bad english, it is not my 1st language)

[rayvio]

you can switch covenants, so it's not quite the same
also we'll be introduced to each covenant before making a choice between them, rather than being completely isolated from the other class halls and their stories like we were in Legion

we also just had a massive amount of new races introduced, encouraging more people to level alts so Blizz may well have changed their opinion on that

[Rafoel]

Argument of "efficient" in such context is the most stupid one can make. They made a great expansion in Legion. They "learnt" from this mistake and created a horrible expansion, BfA. If anything, stepping back from class content was a mistake. Maybe they realized it.

[Niwes]

you can switch covenants, so it's not quite the same
also we'll be introduced to each covenant before making a choice between them, rather than being completely isolated from the other class halls and their stories like we were in Legion

we also just had a massive amount of new races introduced, encouraging more people to level alts so Blizz may well have changed their opinion on that

yes, while the leveling it mixes somewhat up.

but

1) Blizzard seems not to catering game design towards switching of Covenant. it is an option, yes. you CAN do it. but its not naturally expected. at least actual design looks to me like that.

2) most of content (which is endgame conent) fires into the seperated Covenants, like the Covenant Allies, the trees, the Legiondaries, the abilities etc. I see not much overlapping or additional back and forth between them, in endgame. Covenants seems very decoupled from each other.

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Just keep in mind, it's their game, and they may change their minds, or want to see if the playerbase's mindset has changed any, etc. They have their reasons for what they do, even if they're wrong sometimes.

We just get to play WoW...or not.

yeah, ofc. no question here.

i just dont get it. what Ion said before BfA made totally sense to me. And i do not think magically the majority now playing an army of alts (instead the minority). Foremost since BfA really not supported a reason that the majority of single main character players now switched to altiholics. BfA exceptionally NOT supported this. so there is no reason, why the behaviour of player base should have changed since Legion.

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Argument of "efficient" in such context is the most stupid one can make. They made a great expansion in Legion. They "learnt" from this mistake and created a horrible expansion, BfA. If anything, stepping back from class content was a mistake. Maybe they realized it.

In a logical and rational context, this seems the only valid possibility.

but Blizz not feels like the company to me, that

1) learn that fast

2) switch back to inefficient and expensive development and investment, before trying an xpac with content everyone can experience 100% of, before doing this. this worked from TBC to WoD. Blizz is smart enough and have enough data, that they realize the fault of BfA was not based on the fact that most players could exp the same content.

[Heartbreaker23]

When Blizzard said that most players just play their main character, that was obviously horse shit. Most players play multiple classes and a lot of players have one of each class. I've had every class at max level since Wrath.

People have alts, they'll play through all of the covenant stories on their different alts.

[Aphrel]

i have 5 chars at 120...

and i still don't know why we went into uldir,

Ive no idea who bwonsamdi is...

and whats up with all the snake folks in the desert?

Making content for only a portion of their playerbase has been a thing for a while...

[iperson]

i have 5 chars at 120...

and i still don't know why we went into uldir,

Ive no idea who bwonsamdi is...

and whats up with all the snake folks in the desert?

Making content for only a portion of their playerbase has been a thing for a while...

alliance really misssed out on the content in bfa

[Echo of Soul]

not long before release of BfA, in an Interview or some article, Blizzard (or better: Ion Hazzikostas) stated that they will not repeat something like Legendaries and Class Order Halls of Legion ever again. Because since most ppl (> 80%) only play a single main character and therefore just 1 of 12 classes, above stuff was a huge investment on Blizzards side, any player just see a 12th of. This means virtually 11 of 12 content parts Blizz creates, never reaches the player base aka they invest 12x the time for content every player experience. Which is extremely inefficient. Therefore Blizzard do not wanna repeat this.

And your source is...?

[iperson]

And your source is...?

I think he's confusing their Naxx40/sunwell comments with something else. That's the only time I remember anything resembling this comment.

[Elias01]

i have 5 chars at 120...

and i still don't know why we went into uldir,

Ive no idea who bwonsamdi is...

and whats up with all the snake folks in the desert?

Making content for only a portion of their playerbase has been a thing for a while...

Mabye you should start reading quest texts.

[crakerjack]

You can switch covenants, so really it's not the same. We'll also play through each covenant before we actually pick one, so it's not like you don't get to experience all of them. As someone who played all 12 class hall campaigns, I can safely say you didn't miss much. I almost forgot how all of them played out except for the paladin one since you get to see the tirion story all the way through.

So unlike class halls, in SL we'll be able to play the story line of each covenant before we make our decision. The only time you pick a covenant before completing the storylines is if you're playing an alt and already completed them on your main.

[korijenkins]

Argument of "efficient" in such context is the most stupid one can make. They made a great expansion in Legion. They "learnt" from this mistake and created a horrible expansion, BfA. If anything, stepping back from class content was a mistake. Maybe they realized it.

It's the garbage argument that led to them adding LFR and making raiding a casual experience people didn't aspire to. Killed server communities and guilds in one fell swoop.

What always made no sense to me was that you can queue for current content raids, auto attack a boss, and be rewarded with high level gear for doing next to nothing, yet are forced to make groups for BT timewalking that people only ran for cosmetic glaives.

Makes no sense.

[Niwes]

I think he's confusing their Naxx40/sunwell comments with something else. That's the only time I remember anything resembling this comment.

No, i am not confusing this. After 15 years of uninterrupted WoW i know the difference between Classic posts and retail. As i said in my OP, enough ppl will remember that Statement.

But i try to find the Statement at the moment. If i found it, i let you know.

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When Blizzard said that most players just play their main character, that was obviously horse shit. Most players play multiple classes and a lot of players have one of each class. I've had every class at max level since Wrath.

People have alts, they'll play through all of the covenant stories on their different alts.

Yes, you. And 20 guildies maybe. Out of 2-8 million customers.

Blizz would not make such a Statement when their data showed majority of players are altoholics.

But as i said in OP: Plz dont derail it to that discussion. There are enough other threads for this.

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It's the garbage argument that led to them adding LFR and making raiding a casual experience people didn't aspire to. Killed server communities and guilds in one fell swoop.

What always made no sense to me was that you can queue for current content raids, auto attack a boss, and be rewarded with high level gear for doing next to nothing, yet are forced to make groups for BT timewalking that people only ran for cosmetic glaives.

Makes no sense.

What are you discussing here ? Do not get, what this has to do with this thread ?

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You can switch covenants, so really it's not the same. We'll also play through each covenant before we actually pick one, so it's not like you don't get to experience all of them. As someone who played all 12 class hall campaigns, I can safely say you didn't miss much. I almost forgot how all of them played out except for the paladin one since you get to see the tirion story all the way through.

So unlike class halls, in SL we'll be able to play the story line of each covenant before we make our decision. The only time you pick a covenant before completing the storylines is if you're playing an alt and already completed them on your main.

Y, ofc. Its not about missing something. Its about [see OP]

Second: it not looks to me like 80% of Covenant Investment is in the leveling from 50-60. I have beta but not enough time to lebel up. But to me it looks like the Investment is in endgame (as usual).

Its like saying "you get your azerite neck while leveling" in BfA. Most Blizz Investment is in endgame Azerite, Titan Residuum, Essences, Corruption, etc

You dont level up a Covenant tree, glow, Anima, Companion, etc before endgame, or ?

[Aphrel]

Mabye you should start reading quest texts.

if only there were any quests for allys in those zones..

[Doffen]

if only there were any quests for allys in those zones..

So what happened was that the Horde ended up in Zandalar and got to meet the King. He sent the Horde out to do some errands for him. In Zuldazar they dealt with Zul's treachery and killed lots of trolls. In Nazmir they had to deal with Blood Trolls who worshipped death and what worse is. Their Loa died. But in Uldir they were waking up some titan robot and the Horde got to smash him a bit. Horde met Bwonsamdi. He is a loa and enjoys making bargains. In Voldun they were sent to investigate a bad lookin troll. He had some plans to trick the horde to do some silly shit. The horde met fox people. They were in War with snake people. But not all snake people were bad and good snake people had war with bad snake people. Then the horde found the bad looking troll. They followed him into a cave or something were he gave his life to wake up Mythrax the cithraxx. Together with the King the horde ran back to the city to stop Mythraxx the cithraxx to awaken an old god blob in Uldir together with Zul. Horde did not succeed.

Phew. This is why we went into Uldir.

[Elias01]

There is no story relevant content for covenats outside of story during leveling. Its all grind without any context or lore.

[rhorle]

It is in relation to the work. The number of class order halls is larger then covenants. Covenants do not require a separate quests, lore, rewards, designs etc for each class. Faction Neutral hubs are a perfect compromise. It allows you to create extra stuff but still maximize the value.

[Space Troll]

I'm still trying to figure out what you're actually arguing or trying to bring up other than it's just better as covenants.

Are you saying that having one unique ability per spec per covenant is bad design or that it is at all similar to Class Halls? Because it's not. They reduced the amount of segregation by a ton from classes to a pick 1 of 4. Which is a FOTM "pick what's best" that's said on the forums/discords or pick what you want. I don't see anything at all wrong from either systems Class Halls (which were definitely cool, but I can see why unless you played alts you're missing story content and context) or Covenants. Not to mention you can switch with a heavy investment to do so.

[Tetley]

When Blizzard said that most players just play their main character, that was obviously horse shit. Most players play multiple classes and a lot of players have one of each class. I've had every class at max level since Wrath.

People have alts, they'll play through all of the covenant stories on their different alts.

It took me 6 years until I finally leveled an alt. Now I have two max level characters, one Alliance and one Horde to see their respective stories. I can only speak for myself but I assume many other players only have time to play one or two characters. We miss out on a lot of interesting lore and gameplay. That's okay though and there are always youtube videos which show all of that.

In patch 8.3 I only played my main character and have a rank 15 cloak. I couldn't be bothered at all with the cloak questline and all the catch-up tediousness of having an alt.

[Niwes]

There is no story relevant content for covenats outside of story during leveling. Its all grind without any context or lore.

cant imagine this. something have to come in 9.1, 9.2 and 9.3. or do you think about a WoD debacle ?

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It is in relation to the work. The number of class order halls is larger then covenants. Covenants do not require a separate quests, lore, rewards, designs etc for each class. Faction Neutral hubs are a perfect compromise. It allows you to create extra stuff but still maximize the value.

yep, maybe this is the right starting point. maybe i should think about like „if i were Blizz and wanna have differences and decisions, but keep investment as low as possible...“

maybe i should take the time for a deeper look at beta and interwebz and then deconstruct the single parts of Covenant concept and look what the 4x work efforts really are. maybe i come to the conclusion that it is as cheap as possible, whilst getting best of both worlds/ideas.

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It is in relation to the work. The number of class order halls is larger then covenants. Covenants do not require a separate quests, lore, rewards, designs etc for each class. Faction Neutral hubs are a perfect compromise. It allows you to create extra stuff but still maximize the value.

on the other side, it needs at least 4 x quests, lore, rewards, designs. hmm...

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I'm still trying to figure out what you're actually arguing or trying to bring up other than it's just better as covenants.

Are you saying that having one unique ability per spec per covenant is bad design or that it is at all similar to Class Halls? Because it's not. They reduced the amount of segregation by a ton from classes to a pick 1 of 4. Which is a FOTM "pick what's best" that's said on the forums/discords or pick what you want. I don't see anything at all wrong from either systems Class Halls (which were definitely cool, but I can see why unless you played alts you're missing story content and context) or Covenants. Not to mention you can switch with a heavy investment to do so.

i dont wanna „bring up“ anything. i dont „say“ anything here. i just dont get a few things and just asked for opinions, to get a better understanding or a point of view, that explain Blizzards actions a bit better to me.

as weird as this sounds in 2020, when every second kid wanna totally convince you, why his opinion is the best and only meaningful in universe: i just started this thread, by being simply interested in opinions of others, since i do not fully get, why Blizz go this route again, in contrast to their statement.

i know, it sounds weird, on mmoc, to be just interested in opinions of others... but hey, whatever floats my boat