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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You mean in BC and Wrath when they made 3 dungeons and a raid or 4 dungeons all basically looking the same using the same resources? Or Wrath with a rehashed Naxx, 2 raids in the same room, adding another boss to the same raid each tier? Or in Cata where every every raid was a recycled location that they'd already made a dungeon for and the half tier that wouldn't have been a copy/paste (the water half of firelands) was cut? Easy to make more raids when you can just copy/paste your art assets then add new mobs.

    By comparison was Mogu'shan Vaults a copy of three other mogu dungeons we'd already done? Was HoF a copy of three other mantid dungeons? Etc etc? See. The moment they had LFR and would look at the bean counters and say "This stuff is work making" we got raids with unique appearances, longer raids, more bosses, etc.
    lol
    https://gamingsf.wordpress.com/2015/...ons-and-raids/

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    Thank you for proving you didn't read my post. Yeah, BC and Wrath had a ton of dungeons, but they were all the same. Ramparts, Blood Furnace, Magtheridon, same. All of Serpentshrine, same. All of TK, same. All of Auchindoun, same. They could've easily made 3 separate wings of Freehold or Atal'dazar or Waycrest Manor with almost no cost increase just by doing what they did back then. On the raiding perspective we had rehashed Naxx and ToC one room same as a dungeon in Wrath. Cata we had another Blackrock raid, nothing new; a wind raid, same art assets as the dungeon; half of the Firelands tier was cut and it used same assets as Molten Front. And Dragon Soul was a copy paste of an existing dungeon.

    Then look at MoP. First tier was three completely unique raids with nothing else like it. Second tier huge and completely unique.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I think they’ve decided that their target audience is people who want to play hours a day endlessly.

    As such, they’ve added in a ton of grinding and barriers to playing the fun part of the game.

    If you’re a player like me, who views all world content other than leveling as pointless nonsense, but who likes playing alts, switching mains, etc. - the game isn’t designed for me so I’ve left.

    This is why Shadowlands, even if it’s decent (it’s not going to be good, let’s just be realistic), won’t spur a revival in the playerbase. The people who play casual hours got utterly burned out in Legion and left BFA in disgust.
    grinding? there was barely any grinding in bfa... it was a lot timegating... doing a +15 every week because you don't get anything from doing more... will be same in shadowlands... no point to go beyond that unless you want more than 1 item option...

  4. #244
    I'm maining a spec, not a class. When I play warrior I have zero interest in playing Arms or Prot. The same goes for almost every class I play.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflakesz View Post
    I'm maining a spec.
    An that's completely fine. The purpose of this thread was definitely not to say that people shouldn't main specs. Everyone has their own preferences and should play the game as they want.

    The problem for me is when they "punish" people for playing multiple specs. For example, when I play a Rogue I should be able (in my opinion) to utilize all the specs without having to pay a huge price.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    grinding? there was barely any grinding in bfa... it was a lot timegating... doing a +15 every week because you don't get anything from doing more... will be same in shadowlands... no point to go beyond that unless you want more than 1 item option...
    Pathfinder: a grind
    Essences: a grind
    AP in first patch: a grind
    Legendary cloak: multiple grinds

  7. #247
    For real dude. I'm a PALADIN. Not a "Kyrian Retribution Paladin" - no, I am a Paladin.

    I can't wait for the expansion with out all this garbage in it.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by sephrinx View Post
    For real dude. I'm a PALADIN. Not a "Kyrian Retribution Paladin" - no, I am a Paladin.

    I can't wait for the expansion with out all this garbage in it.
    Agree. Every system added with shadowlands is absolute garbage.

  9. #249
    blizzard keep punishing players for playing more than one spec. I guess tanks and healers will be even more rare to find in m+ in shadowlands...
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Pathfinder: a grind
    timegated...
    Essences: a grind
    timegated too for a lot of them... is there any essence that you could actually grind?
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Legendary cloak: multiple grinds
    also timegated...

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Raspberry Lemon View Post
    timegated...


    timegated too for a lot of them... is there any essence that you could actually grind?


    also timegated...
    Don't care what you call it, it all sucks, whether you call farming a reputation for 3 weeks "time gating" or "grinding"... it's just nonsense shit content.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Don't care what you call it, it all sucks, whether you call farming a reputation for 3 weeks "time gating" or "grinding"... it's just nonsense shit content.
    Yeah, i was so happy to play in classic to get to the time when we didn't have to. When we were free to change specs like underwear. Every week if need be!
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  13. #253
    I honestly don't understand the people that want more homogenization of specs. Aren't the classes as a whole homogenized enough? WoW is the only MMO that comes close to have 36 distinct playstyles and yes it requires a bit of grinding. What is wrong with specs becoming mini-classes?
    Remember when back in vanilla you had to grind gold just to respec? Tedious and clunky process and very, very expensive, especially if you wanted to play both PvP and PvE. If you are lucky enough to play a class that is somewhat good in both or even in one of them.

    But this is a MMO after all. If your definition of "fun" is instant gratification there are plenty of games that fill that playstyle - go play MOBA or a FPS.
    Last edited by oblakoff; 2020-11-04 at 08:22 PM.

  14. #254
    I am Murloc! Sting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmatrix View Post
    This makes me and all the older players laugh, changing specs these days is nothing compared to what we used to go through.
    You're out of your mind. Having to grind a different gear set, picking different covenants, other legendary powers are WAY worse than going back to a trainer and throwing some gold at it. Signed, day 1 player.
    ( ° ͜ʖ͡°)╭∩╮

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The fun factor would go up 1000x if WQs existed in vanilla

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Yeah, i was so happy to play in classic to get to the time when we didn't have to. When we were free to change specs like underwear. Every week if need be!
    wtf... free to change specs? classic? maybe if you want to be poor...

  16. #256
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    They want the game to be as addictive as possible and for players to play all day every day. If you can't keep up, gramps, you're merely not trying hard enough, lol. It's why classic is so popular and why old players get more and more rare in retail.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Sting View Post
    You're out of your mind. Having to grind a different gear set, picking different covenants, other legendary powers are WAY worse than going back to a trainer and throwing some gold at it. Signed, day 1 player.
    I mean, to be fair, there was a time where your tier sets were spec specific. And items did not change stats based on your current spec. Nowadays you have to farm new trinkets and weapons. That's it for gear. Sure, I agree that Azerite, artifacts, legiondaries, essences, etc, etc are a massive pain in the ass. But the "going to the trainer" you remember was only possible in WoD. WoD did not require you to farm different gear anymore. And MoP gave you class specific tier sets (as opposed to spec specific).
    Before that you had to have a gear set for each spec, which was moderately difficult for DPS classes, but pretty hard for hybrids.

    The thing is, in past expansions you did not need an offspec. Because mythic plus was not a thing. In a raid you often had only one, maybe sometimes two roles for certain bosses. But generally you had your raid spec and the spec you did outdoor content with, which also did not really matter most of the time.

    And for PvP you had PvP equipment (or your raid equipment, depending on expansion). But that's it. Mythic plus is the only reason you really need more than one role. And for hybrid classes switching specs got easier, while for DPS classes switching got harder.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Thank you for proving you didn't read my post. Yeah, BC and Wrath had a ton of dungeons, but they were all the same. Ramparts, Blood Furnace, Magtheridon, same. All of Serpentshrine, same. All of TK, same. All of Auchindoun, same. They could've easily made 3 separate wings of Freehold or Atal'dazar or Waycrest Manor with almost no cost increase just by doing what they did back then. On the raiding perspective we had rehashed Naxx and ToC one room same as a dungeon in Wrath. Cata we had another Blackrock raid, nothing new; a wind raid, same art assets as the dungeon; half of the Firelands tier was cut and it used same assets as Molten Front. And Dragon Soul was a copy paste of an existing dungeon.

    Then look at MoP. First tier was three completely unique raids with nothing else like it. Second tier huge and completely unique.
    Thank you for not caring about facts, but anyway they are less similar than the bs mythic spam of today.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    I don't understand this. You think we played classes in the past? I'm pretty sure that despite the absence of borrowed power systems, we were locked into specific specs. Granted the reason for that in the past was class design. Then again, when Ret became a playing spec in Wotlk, I was a Retribution paladin, not a paladin.

    I'm beginning to feel that our choices should be more permanent as opposed to the versatility we have today that lets us adapt to anything and anyone.
    Switching to and maintaining more than one spec was not unusual at least through Cata. Didn't play MOP or whatever the xpac after was called very much so can't speak to those. Played the first few months of Legion and can 100% confirm it didn't just kill playing alts or maining a class and maintaining more than one spec, it brought that playstyle out in the middle of the town square in front of everyone and subjected it to a firing squad.

    At this point I just have a hard time believing Blizz is eschewing the MAU driven strategy of game and system design. I'm on the fence of even playing Shadowlands at all right now. BFA I think was their worst Xpac. I think I lasted the first month and haven't logged into WOW since. Maybe it's better just to keep that streak going.
    Last edited by IceMan1763; 2020-11-06 at 05:20 PM.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    Thank you for not caring about facts, but anyway they are less similar than the bs mythic spam of today.
    What does people spamming M+ have to do with the variety of dungeons in the past compared to now? You could easily take something like Waycrest Manner, break it up into four wings, add some more hallways and a few more bosses, and make it four dungeons. That's what they did in the early days to save money. Scarlet Monastery, Auchindoun, Hellfire Citadel, etc. It's easy to say old xpacs had more dungeons when it's that easy. Repeat that for other hubs, like Atal'dazar, and you can easily proclaim that BFA has more dungeons than any other xpac. Doesn't mean that they're good dungeons. I love how Blizz stops cheaply copy/pasting to make multiple dungeons and people complain that the number of dungeons went down.
    Last edited by cparle87; 2020-11-08 at 08:54 PM.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

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