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  1. #21
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Arthas was always spoiled and insolent.

    He was never truly "possessed" by frostmourne any more than it allowed him to follow his darkest ambitions. In essence, never, in the course of becoming the Lich king, was he forced to do anything he didn't want to. So was he truly "corrupted?"

    Arthas wanted to be king, yes? A great leader? He wanted revenge on Kel'thuzad. He got it; kel'thuzad became his doting servant. He wanted revenge on Mal'ganis, yes? He got it. Ran him through with frostmourne. He wanted to be a king. He got to be that, too, and with a kingdom far exceeding the bounds of Lordaeron. He commanded a force far more powerful than the silver hand ever was, and Uther, who ridiculed and rebuked him? Slain by his own hand.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  2. #22
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immamoonkin View Post
    The Legion had already turned most of the people into undead. It was only a matter of time. Everyone there would have died even if Arthas hadn't shown up.
    No the plague hadn't even started turning people they didn't even realized something was wrong. What you see in the Culling of Stratholme dungeon is not what happens in the lore.

    The wheat just arrived and the first batches of bread were being eaten no one had even turned yet before Arthas started killing people. Saying everyone had eaten the wheat and were doomed is nonsense. Arthas murdered hundreds of people he could have saved if he tried.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by zhero View Post
    you didn't need the power of hindsight to know the entire city was going to be turned undead.
    The problem with Stratholme wasn't the killing, it was the lack of trying to find another way. If he had tried to find another way to deal with it, even if he failed, he would have kept Jaina and Uther as allies. Instead he put his pride out front and said its his way or the highway, killing your own people should be the last option rather then the only one you mention.

  4. #24
    Stratholme can be argued that while it wasn't a good thing, it was necessary to curtail the undead plague before it could spread further. No cure, and no time to sort out who is and isn't infected because people were already actively turning. There was not time to look for other solutions.

    Stranding his men in Northrend, lying to them about it, and betraying the mercenaries he hired to blame them on the ship building? That wasn't a necessary sacrifice to save more lives, that was Arthas being consumed by his need for vengeance and being unwilling to return to Lordaeron after his father the king recalled him.

  5. #25
    Scarab Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    ...and people want a redemption story? Even as a paladin he was portrayed as an arrogant spoiled prince, who treated his subordinates like shit. The Culling of Stratholme was basically im using whatever ends to justify means that would sate his maliciousness.
    if you want to call him an arrogant spoiled prince then he should be in Revendreth, not the Maw. as for the Culling of Strath, that was a "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't" scenario - the entire city was doomed the moment the grain shipment arrived.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    Exactly. I always see people asking for what types of people the Maw is, if not for Arthas, Kael'thas, etc
    And my answer is always the likes of Gul'dan and Archimonde. Both fully irredemable, lovely, evil shitbags.
    Especially Archimonde might just be the most evil character we've seen in the entirety of WoW. He was an asshole who only ever did anything for personal power, even before he joined the Legion, as Thal'kiels backstory + the lore bits in Mac'Aree prove.
    Gul'dan at least had a reason for being an asshole, he was a cripple and mistreated by his people. But Archimonde was a talented sorcerer, good-looking and with high status.
    Gotta question Arthas' culpability. Can you really be blamed for something you do after your soul is literally stripped from you? Revendreth for sure in respect to what he did before he took up the sword, particularly Stratholme and the mercenaries.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  7. #27
    Scarab Lord crakerjack's Avatar
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    Not bad, just morally grey.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    Doesn't make him "bad"...

    Stratholme was fully the right thing to do as well.
    Don't you know? There's a whole "Arthas and Lich King overrated" movement going on from Twitter-brand nerds on this site.

  9. #29
    Brewmaster Evaddon's Avatar
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    Its kinda funny seeing people justify what Arthas did as we are going through a real life pandemic lol

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Before he touched Frostmourne he was a vengeful, manipulative asshole. He hired mercenaries to burn his own men's ship and their way home and then had his men kill the very mercenaries HE hired. He also killed basically an entire city full of people, where surely many people could have been saved, but he took an extremely radical and vile approach to a grim problem, evidently being more concerned with denying Mal'ganis than saving innocent lives.

    After he touched Frostmourne he became a monster, as the blade consumed his soul and all good that remained within him was extinguished. But he definitely was not an entirely innocent or good person before either.
    Precisely this.

  11. #31
    Herald of the Titans msdos's Avatar
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    Arthas was a fine leader by evil standards. If you're morally "good", then yeah, you probably don't see him as a good leader.

  12. #32
    Legendary! TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    No the plague hadn't even started turning people they didn't even realized something was wrong. What you see in the Culling of Stratholme dungeon is not what happens in the lore.

    The wheat just arrived and the first batches of bread were being eaten no one had even turned yet before Arthas started killing people. Saying everyone had eaten the wheat and were doomed is nonsense. Arthas murdered hundreds of people he could have saved if he tried.
    I think you're mixing up Hearthglen and Stratholme. Stratholme was entirely lost by the time Arthas got to it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    Its kinda funny seeing people justify what Arthas did as we are going through a real life pandemic lol
    Not really, Arthas was dealing with a zombie outbreak. COVID-19 doesn't turn people into zombies.
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    Intelligence is like four wheel drive, it's not going to make you unstoppable, it just sort of tends to get you stuck in more remote places.
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    If you want to be disgusted, next time you kiss someone remember you've got your mouth on the end of a tube which has shit at the other end, held back by a couple of valves.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    No the right thing to do would be kill those who turned only. Its not like everyone ate the bread that day. He just smells fresh bread and just says welp better kill everyone.
    You're 100% right...Of course, just round up all those who ate the plagued food. How does one do that? Ask? Nope, you'll get scared liars. Wait till they turn? Too risky considering its a whole city. He was presented with no correct choice. Waiting would of just doomed the city just as much as his purge did.

  14. #34
    The "Culling" people seem to have forgotten that there is more to Arthas' story than just that one event. There was also the whole Northrend, trapping his men in the frozen North, hiring a bunch of mercenaries to burn their ships and then betraying them and acting like they did it maliciously without his involvement to get his men to kill them and hide his guilt.

    So yes, if you just focus on the Culling, his actions could be justified. Beyond that, nope. He was headed down a dark and evil path, consumed by personal vengeance and no longer motivated by his love for of his people.

  15. #35
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhero View Post
    you didn't need the power of hindsight to know the entire city was going to be turned undead.
    If nothing was done, sure. But Paladins were immune to the plague and, like Ebola and unlike COVID-19, the plague turned people quickly, so isolating those who had not eaten the bad grain/flour, and containing the rest would've allowed at least some of the non-infected to be saved, and the city as a whole would've been recoverable.

    Arthas took the simple, and easier (not easy, just easier) option. He always was the type to look for the simple and easy solution to everything, to take shortcuts. Unfortunately, it's not often that the best solution is both simple and easy.
    Last edited by Kalisandra; 2020-08-31 at 05:44 AM.

  16. #36
    the Culling could maybe be defensible if it didn't fit right into a pattern of grabbing power for himself at the expense of literally whoever happened to be nearby

    and really, that's Arthas' whole arc: the ambitious, selfish young prince who grabs power for himself regardless of the cost

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    ...and people want a redemption story? Even as a paladin he was portrayed as an arrogant spoiled prince, who treated his subordinates like shit. The Culling of Stratholme was basically im using whatever ends to justify means that would sate his maliciousness.
    Arthas, wasn't bad, he was more pragmatic to a fault and filled with vengeance.

    In Arthas' eyes he was betrayed by everyone he trusted. On the trail of the plague and encountering Stratholme, he knew that it had to be purged, but Jaina and Uther turned their back on him and left him to do it by himself. Arthas was absolutely correct in what he did, he was failed by his trusted friends. On the trail of Malganis, after landing in Northrend, he went out looking for Frostmourne at the behest of Mauradin. While they were searching for the rune blade, a missive came in and told Arthas to return home, leaving the job unfinished and no "justice" for his people (this actually draws a nice parallel with the Uther SL cinematic and how people are torn on whether Uther was looking for vengeance or justice). His troops completely abandoned their forward camp to go to the ships and leave, without Arthas, this was another massive betrayal, first by the King stopping him from attaining victory and again by his troops to just leave while Arthas was gone. Using the mercenaries to burn the boats and essentially force his troops to stay in Northrend and continue the fight was again a pragmatic decision, it had to be done. The turning on the mercenaries part is harder to stomach, but this is also a character that's had his judgement clouded and is on Nerzhul's radar. Realistically speaking, if he left the mercenaries and they told his troops they burned the boats on Arthas' orders, he would have lost his troops anyway, so for Arthas' goals, betraying the mercs is the right choice.

    Arthas was also far from a "spoiled prince". He earned every ability he wielded, he had little talent for combat, horsemanship, etc... He trained hard to be as good as he was. He was also loved by his people and in no way treated his subordinates like shit, until they betrayed him.

  18. #38

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Stratholme can be argued that while it wasn't a good thing, it was necessary to curtail the undead plague before it could spread further. No cure, and no time to sort out who is and isn't infected because people were already actively turning. There was not time to look for other solutions.

    Stranding his men in Northrend, lying to them about it, and betraying the mercenaries he hired to blame them on the ship building? That wasn't a necessary sacrifice to save more lives, that was Arthas being consumed by his need for vengeance and being unwilling to return to Lordaeron after his father the king recalled him.
    This hits the nail fairly squarely on the head.

    The Culling may not have been the best choice, but there is at least a plausible argument for why it needed to be done.

    The problem with Arthas is everything that happened AFTER. The Culling basically broke him, and ALL of his actions afterward were no longer those of a Paladin of moral righteousness, but those of a vengeance obsessed zealot.

  20. #40
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Gotta question Arthas' culpability. Can you really be blamed for something you do after your soul is literally stripped from you?
    As I said above... Frostmourne didn't make Arthas do anything he didn't want to do.

    Hell, by taking up Frostmourne Arthas basically got everything he every wanted.

    Well, except for Jaina, maybe.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

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