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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    As I said above... Frostmourne didn't make Arthas do anything he didn't want to do.

    Hell, by taking up Frostmourne Arthas basically got everything he every wanted.

    Well, except for Jaina, maybe.
    I'm saying that what Arthas did before he took the sword is definitely not bad enough to get him the Maw. And that he shouldn't be punished by what he did when magically stripped of his soul.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    The culling was literally the right thing to do. He made choice there and it was not an easy one for him. No idea where you got that from.
    Wow storytellers do this thing where a character fighting for the good guys is faced with an impossible choice, then afterwards the other good guys come up and are like "Oh my god how could you have done that thing that totally saved the day!" and then the char is ostracized.

  3. #43
    To be honest the war3 paladins were sort of like Jedi in the sense that their emotions were not supposed to be a part of what they do (according to uther/obi wan).

    And arthas (sith) let his anger and hatred and desire for revenge overwhelm him and trample all the rules of the paladin order as well as the general law of Lorderon.

    Reminds me of the anakin from star wars storyline.
    I guess you could even see similarities in Count Dooku/Malganis as the taunting villain and Palpatine/Nerzhul as the evil mastermind that betrays dooku/malganis and takes arthas/anakin as his own.
    Last edited by Aleksej89; 2020-08-31 at 06:39 AM.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    This hits the nail fairly squarely on the head.

    The Culling may not have been the best choice, but there is at least a plausible argument for why it needed to be done.

    The problem with Arthas is everything that happened AFTER. The Culling basically broke him, and ALL of his actions afterward were no longer those of a Paladin of moral righteousness, but those of a vengeance obsessed zealot.
    I'd go so far as to say he was that before the actual culling. He disbanded the entire Silver Hand because they wouldn't do what he said, something they had no idea on exactly what was going on. Arguably time was a factor, but it was still unnecessary vindictiveness.

    Also also, when the Scourge have done the grain plots since, Priests and Paladins were able to cure the infected before they turned. Maybe if he actually tried curing them - something he'd never even attempted - he wouldn't have needed to cull the entire city.

  5. #45
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I'm saying that what Arthas did before he took the sword is definitely not bad enough to get him the Maw. And that he shouldn't be punished by what he did when magically stripped of his soul.
    But stripped of his soul or not... he still meant to do it.

    I’d say that makes him pretty culpable for his actions.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    As I said above... Frostmourne didn't make Arthas do anything he didn't want to do.

    Hell, by taking up Frostmourne Arthas basically got everything he every wanted.

    Well, except for Jaina, maybe.
    Uhm... apart for the fact that the blade twisted him completely and stole his soul?

    His motivation until he picked up Frostmourne was to save Lordaeron, he was fanatically loyal to his subjects and Stratholme happened exactly because of that. Afterwards he goes back and murders all his former subjects, and you really see no shift there?

    Many people seem to be forgetting that Mal'ganis was actually there too and he was teleporting freshly turned people away so they would bolster his undead army (which was in turn killing more of Arthas' subjects), it's not like Arthas was acting on a hunch, he knew what would happen since he saw it before. The uninfected would have been killed by the infected and then Mal'ganis would have raised those too to kill more people in Lordaeron.
    This wasn't a situation where you could just quarantine the city and think about it for long, when a Dreadlord is running around.

    Also if you ever played the Coverns of Time dungeon you know that the amount of uninfected was very low. After the few Arthas kills at the start you meet nothing but zombies.
    Could he have explained things to Uther better? Sure. But the old man arrived on the scene much later and then made a judgment call without even having all information. If Arthas had waited on him getting to terms with what must be done, the city would have been completely infected and Mal'ganis would have taken the undead away.

    As for the things in Northrend. A lot of that is already the Lich King Ner'zhul influencing him. He thrust Frostmourne from the Frozen Throne specifically because he was manipulating Arthas to get it.

    If we learned anything from the Bastion animated short then that Arthas might not have been Maw-bound, because his greatest crimes happened after he lost his soul and was under the thrall of the Lich King without free will. Some things he did before were questionable but not remotely on a level with the crimes commited by Kael'thas and even that one got send to Revendreth.

    I fully expect the revelation that he would not have been send to the Maw at all, if the Arbiter had gotten the chance to judge him, but because of Devos and Uther he was send there against her will. It will probably be part of our story to correct this mistake.

  7. #47
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    ...and people want a redemption story? Even as a paladin he was portrayed as an arrogant spoiled prince, who treated his subordinates like shit. The Culling of Stratholme was basically im using whatever ends to justify means that would sate his maliciousness.
    i dont think the majority wants a redemption story but honestly we will never really have the numbers to prove or disprove it.

    HOWEVER.

    Without giving too many spoilers away in the Kyrian quest chain there is a reveal regarding Uther's actions related to Arthas.
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  8. #48
    The Patient BrintoSFJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    ...and people want a redemption story? Even as a paladin he was portrayed as an arrogant spoiled prince, who treated his subordinates like shit. The Culling of Stratholme was basically im using whatever ends to justify means that would sate his maliciousness.
    It is not what people want, it is how Shadowlands works, the game works. Blizzard has established Shadowlands in a way where every soul is given a chance at redemption in Ravendrath. Know the lore of Shadowlands before complaining.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Kael'thas sold out his people to the Legion, and he was sent to Revendreth.
    Well Uther kinda made that choice for Arthas not the Arbiter.

  10. #50
    To people saying that Arthas should have rounded up and questioned the people of Stratholme - there was no time to do that. When he arrived to the city, people were already starting to turn. If Arthas tried to isolate healthy people, it wouldn't be long until enough transformed to the undead to be a problem, especially with a good chunk of his troops having to deal with the panic that would inevitably break out.

    Not to mention that the whole "questioning" solution relied heavily on people telling the truth in a situation where it would quickly become obvious what was happening - if you saw people turning into undead and the soldiers were asking if you ate bread recently then it's not that hard to figure it out. People would freak out, get stuck in denial, or just lie to save themselves - even if they believed the infected are going to be isolated and/or treated, because nobody would want to end up with a group of people where anyone can turn into a monster at any time.

    And since there was no time to question people in a way that would catch all the liars, inevitably some would slip into the safe camp, causing even more chaos and requiring soldiers to handle the situation...

    Yeah, good luck fighting off the undead, while having your forces constantly split between dealing with the panicked masses, questioning people with every reason to lie, doing executions in the "sick camp" and dealing with outbrakes in the "safe" camp. Even with Uther, Jaina and the rest of the troops this would quickly go south and the most likely outcome would be that Arthas and his allies would lose a lot of men, before being forced to retreat. The people of Stratholme would still die and you'd have a horde of undead to deal with, but with your forces thinned hard.

    Like it or not, the purge was the only viable solution here.
    Last edited by Sarethion; 2020-08-31 at 07:09 AM.

  11. #51
    The Patient BrintoSFJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    I'd go so far as to say he was that before the actual culling. He disbanded the entire Silver Hand because they wouldn't do what he said, something they had no idea on exactly what was going on. Arguably time was a factor, but it was still unnecessary vindictiveness.

    Also also, when the Scourge have done the grain plots since, Priests and Paladins were able to cure the infected before they turned. Maybe if he actually tried curing them - something he'd never even attempted - he wouldn't have needed to cull the entire city.
    First of all, they were in a very dire situation, he saw what happened in Hearthglen, people turning into undead and began eating their own families and families had to kill them. Uther did not see what Arthas saw, Arthas was young and inexperienced for such situation(This is also why I don't think princes should be sent to battlefield as commanders but that is going off topic), he was too passionate and hot headed, he did not want his own people to turn into zombies and then eat their own families. He did what he believed was right, at least this way, those families would curse him and not despair in the fact they were being eaten by their own family and then had to force to put them down like rabid dogs, just as it happened in Hearthglen. that was his logic. Also, he did not have any priests and paladins on his side according to lore, for gameplay purpose, he was given priest troops in WC3 during Hearthglen mission.

    Uther was full of pride when he admonished Arthas, he should have been more patient and try to get through to Arthas. Same is true for Jaina, both Jaina and Uther could have calmed him down but of them chose to abandon him. It was then that he truly fell, he fell directly into the plot of the Dreadlords. He was already being influenced by Lich King just as Kelthuzad heard Lich King's call from Dalaran.

    During the undead story line, Uther and many other paladins called Arthas betrayer, as far as I saw, he was the one being betrayed. At least Uther had no right to judge Arthas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarethion View Post
    Not to mention that the whole "questioning" solution relied heavily on people telling the truth in a situation where it would quickly become obvious what was happening - if you saw people turning into undead and the soldiers were asking if you ate bread recently then it's not that hard to figure it out. People would freak out, get stuck in denial, or just lie to save themselves - even if they believed the infected are going to be isolated and/or treated, because nobody would want to end up with a group of people where anyone can turn into a monster at any time.
    Considering how we are acting during Covid, blatantly lying about having cough or fever or coming in contact with others with cough and cold and fever just so that we aren't isolated, I say your analysis is 100% accurate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by haediff View Post
    Well Uther kinda made that choice for Arthas not the Arbiter.
    It was Devos who made that choice, she instigated Uther, Uther was resisting the urge but her vile words broke Uther.
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  12. #52
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The problem of Stratholme was less the Culling itself (which, while somewhat necessary, definitely could have been handled in a different manner, or at the very least explained to Uther more convincingly) and more than it locked Arthas into thinking the rashest, boldest actions were the answer always. After this, his reaction to Mal'ganis's taunts were to deploy an entire fleet to Northrend. The reaction to Terenas predictably ordering his soldiers back was to hire mercenaries to burn his army's ships and then betray them. And then the reaction to predictably being encircled by the undead on their home turf was to go for a cursed blade that sealed his fate.

    Arthas had many flaws and made several flawed decisions before he even touched the sword which should punt his ass to Revendreth straight away, Frostmourne or not. I don't want a redemption story for him at all, if he is to play a non-antagonist role in Shadowlands he should be a necessary evil at best.
    I don't think it makes any sense to redeem him, and I hope that isn't what Blizz is angling for.
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  13. #53
    Was Arthas bad before he touched Frostmourne? Certainly. Good person would never Cull Stratholme even if it was completely justified.
    But was he completely irredeemable Maw-worthy piece of shit? Certainly not. He didn't start as a complete asshole and all his actions prior to taking up Frostmourne weren't simply for personal gain or satisfaction.
    Malganis, Kelthuzad and Nerzhul certainly brought up and unearthed his worst traits, but then again, they had to tear apart half of Lordaeron to push him over that edge.

  14. #54
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    The book has a rather in-depth portion of his human years, from early childhood to getting Frostmourne. They portray a good-hearted man, who earnestly wishes the best for his people and tries his damndest to protect them, but who gets more and more strained as time goes on and loses his way. Either this pre-Frostmourne period is a natural development for a human thrown in a constant high-stress situation, or the Lich King managed to affect Arthas even before he grabbed the sword. It was all according to LK's plan either way.

    And to drive home he has good in him the book keeps presenting moments where DK Arthas loses himself to brief contemplation when he stumbles on thoughts of Jaina. Also, there was a glimpse of an alternate reality in another book, where the Scourge wasn't a thing and therefore Arthas was left a legit human monarch. If his evil nature wasn't the Scourge's doing then this wouldn't be the case (granted, this is an AU version we're talking about, but nature vs nurture wise there's no reason to think he'd be different from MU Arthas).

    A thought entered my mind upon reading some replies: Couldn't the Scourge just have killed Arthas and raised him as a DK? His path to Frostmourne feels quite convoluted when you think about it.
    Last edited by Zuben; 2020-08-31 at 08:02 AM.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    ...and people want a redemption story? Even as a paladin he was portrayed as an arrogant spoiled prince, who treated his subordinates like shit. The Culling of Stratholme was basically im using whatever ends to justify means that would sate his maliciousness.
    I don't think he was, tho. Arthas was a teenager when we played WC3. Do you realize that? We are talking a Beauty and the Beast scenario here. Yes, arrogant, spoiled... how exactly? He clearly was an aspiring, skilled warrior and paladin. Claiming otherwise is a bit stupid.

    Arthas does care for his people. Genuinely. But he is not wise yet. He is thrown into the Zombie Apocalypse. The culling was not the first encounter with the undead either, but the one that he knew could potentially end Lordearon. He did not do it for fun, he is horrified that the plague stuff has already been spread and decides to kill everyone because he cant tell who is infected or not. Thats Ends justify the means, yea, but also... isn't this kind of the thing in every Zombie-Story? How there is no choice?

    Arthas was pretty much driven mad with rage after that and pulled to Northrend because, as the stupid arrogant kid he is, he wanted revenge, figuring he left Lordearon behind saved from the plague.

    Its also clear that the Lich King planned this - Mal'Gans was just there to lure in Arthas.
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  16. #56
    Bloodsail Admiral Krawu's Avatar
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    Yeah he was arrogant and cocky but he was still a good man (or rather, a man who meant to do good). He didn't enjoy culling Strathholme, it was a "doing bad things for good reasons"-type deal.

    If Uther was lawful good, Athas was more of a chaotic good character, but ironically one that was born into a position of great power in a system of tight regulations and still took his responsibilities to heart, just not the rules that should've come with it.

    Arthas was in the "Whatever it takes" camp of doing good instead of listening to his more doctrine-bound mentor, which made him corruptible and led to his downfall. This kept repeating until he finally picked up Frostmourne with the best of intentions against the advice of everyone else.

    This kind of complex morality is what makes Arthas' story so good.
    Last edited by Krawu; 2020-08-31 at 07:52 AM.

  17. #57
    saying the culling of stratholme wasnt the right thing to do is like being bitten in a zombie apocalypse and hiding it from everyone. youre already dead, but youll possibly take more people with you when you turn - possibly even those close to you.

    the entire population was already plagued. they were already dead, and every single one of them was going to turn.

  18. #58
    I can't believe we are discussing this AGAIN as if it was not perfectly well discussed and solved 20 years ago LOL

  19. #59
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevarin View Post
    saying the culling of stratholme wasnt the right thing to do is like being bitten in a zombie apocalypse and hiding it from everyone. youre already dead, but youll possibly take more people with you when you turn - possibly even those close to you.

    the entire population was already plagued. they were already dead, and every single one of them was going to turn.
    There was a chance the whole city hadn't gotten to consume the corrupted grain, which is what makes Strattholme morally ambiguous rather than strictly right or wrong. I agree with the sentiment otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I can't believe we are discussing this AGAIN as if it was not perfectly well discussed and solved 20 years ago LOL
    It's one of those things that require Word of God to be solved. We just might get that in Shadowlands.
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  20. #60
    The Patient Rathwirt's Avatar
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    Purging Stratholme was fine, and he could explain why it had to be done after being the lead on the plague investigation. However, taking all his troops to Northrend just because some demon taunted him after he saved his people was not the right call, and everything else led from that.

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