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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Yes. Kill all infected, and all who are highly likely to be infected. That's literally every fucking zombie thing ever. You are the guy in every zombie movie who goes "hey guys no it's just a bite it's fine" that then leads to EVERYONE dying.

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    Lol who said they haven't? But like who would even give a single smidge of credence to your opinion, when you openly compare arthas and his undead hordes attacking quelthalas "alliance genocide" to sylvanas with the actual horde, burning teldrassil and it's civilians.
    It's canonical that the majority of the Kaldorei on Darnassus actually escaped via portals. Did people die? Yes. But that's what happens in war. Sylvanas goal was to make a point, not eradicate the entire Kaldorei population. Otherwise, she would have marched further south to kill everyone on the way to Feralas.

    Arthas is a human and had human allies that willingly became his death knights. To say it's not a genocide that can be contributed to the Alliance just further proves my point. So thank you for that.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Hey guess what... Prevent the spread of disease. When us real life people get sick we don't go insane and start actively hunting down people to infect.

    Zombies don't go "oh I got a cold, better stay home"
    What is your point? No one argued that you wouldn't kill those who have turned...

    There is a big difference in character if someone actually thinks through what can and can't be done as opposed to "lets kill them" and fucking leeeroy the city.
    He didn't give a moment of thought at all. <- that's what makes him bad and evil.

    Same as if a vet has to put down an animal no one considers them evil or a bad person, except maybe a few. But if you take your animal in and the vet instantly say "I have to kill the pet" then fucking yeah you should be scared of that person. Especially when he doesn't give any sense of sympathy or empathy along with it. Which is what Arthas have never shown to have. He has 0 of it, which sort of make him like a psychopath.

  3. #143
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    What is your point? No one argued that you wouldn't kill those who have turned...
    But killing someone out of assumption to they MIGHT be infected, that's just plain wrong and unjustifiable especially when NO OTHER options were even considered.

    There is a big difference in character if someone actually thinks through what can and can't be done as opposed to "lets kill them" and fucking leeeroy the city.
    He didn't give a moment of thought at all. <- that's what makes him bad and evil.

    Same as if a vet has to put down an animal no one considers them evil or a bad person, except maybe a few. But if you take your animal in and the vet instantly say "I have to kill the pet" then fkn yeah you should be scared of that person.
    1. They can turn any second, that is the issue, and when you have a city in lockdown like that, with the fear of the dead rising and murdering you, no one is going to cooperate. Everyone is going to try and flee the city, and in that chaos is where the armies will fall and the dead will rise. Have fucking non of y'all seen literally ANY ZOMBIE MOVIE EVER?

    2. YES HE DID, did you forget the entire time traveling to the city? He knew what was going on. He knew what awaited him. He just hoped he would arrive before the wheat did, that entire horse ride he was thinking about what would need to be done if the outbreak started. And he did. It's a hard choices but one that needed to be made.

    Wow very nice pet thing that is not at all comparable. But yeah sure. If your dog starts foaming at the mouth and trying to rip out your throat, I'm sure you will just qaurntine it for a day and then it will be fine.

  4. #144
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanToaster View Post
    Out of Curiosity, where do you base the "Real" lore from?

    I mean, from my understanding -> New Lore trumps old Lore.
    So I would say if your Source is Older than LichKing, it is outdated and rewritten, or retconned like everyone likes to say.

    Not that it overall really matters tbh, I´m just curious.
    Arthas Rise of the Lich King. Its the newest, most detailed, and most accurate version of the events we have.

    Even if you want to dismiss the massacre of the people in Stratholme Arthas also murdered his own mercenaries in Northrend just so he could continue his insane lust for revenge.
    Last edited by Nathreim; 2020-08-31 at 06:18 PM.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    It's canonical that the majority of the Kaldorei on Darnassus actually escaped via portals. Did people die? Yes. But that's what happens in war. Sylvanas goal was to make a point, not eradicate the entire Kaldorei population. Otherwise, she would have marched further south to kill everyone on the way to Feralas.

    Arthas is a human and had human allies that willingly became his death knights. To say it's not a genocide that can be contributed to the Alliance just further proves my point. So thank you for that.
    "A handful of humans represent the entire alliance. Especially since when this all happened the alliance didn't even exist yet"

    "The entire horde burning civilians alive does not count as the horde."

    Come on man, just come on.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    "A handful of humans represent the entire alliance. Especially since when this all happened the alliance didn't even exist yet"

    "The entire horde burning civilians alive does not count as the horde."

    Come on man, just come on.
    It wasn't the entire fucking Horde. It was Sylvanas and a handful of loyalists launching the catapults. Saying they representing the entire Horde by Arthas and his loyalists don't represent the Alliance is just the epitome of hypocrisy.

  7. #147
    I don't get why people think Stratholme could have been quarantained. Do they forget the little fact that Mal'Ganis and his Scourge army is actively roaming the streets of Stratholme, destroying buildings to force citizens out and then harvest them? There is actually an event if you lose this mission in WC3. Mal'Ganis will say ''Obviously... you are not as strong as the Dark Lord believed. Now, feel the wrath of the Scourge, as you drown under the flood of the living dead!'' and then Arthas' base literally gets swarmed by zombies which he is unable to fight off. How do you expect to quarantaine anything if this force vastly outnumbers yours? The whole point of the culling was not only for Arthas to put citizens out of their misery, but to also put a stop to the Scourge's numbers which would otherwise overwhelm the rest of Lordaeron.

  8. #148
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    It wasn't the entire fucking Horde. It was Sylvanas and a handful of loyalists launching the catapults. Saying they representing the entire Horde by Arthas and his loyalists don't represent the Alliance is just the epitome of hypocrisy.
    "It was sylvanas and a handful of loyalists" holy fucking shit mate. You don't even know. Ah I miss seeing your posts, always remind me that i didn't turn out that bad.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    "It was sylvanas and a handful of loyalists" holy fucking shit mate. You don't even know. Ah I miss seeing your posts, always remind me that i didn't turn out that bad.
    Wow. All right I'll let other people deal with you. I forgot you are incapable of having mature conversations on these forums. Everything you say is either inflammatory or condescending. So I'm not gonna bother with you anymore. I'd rather debate with people who actually care about facts rather than making up nonsense to fit their narrative.

  10. #150
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Wow. All right I'll let other people deal with you. I forgot you are incapable of having mature conversations on these forums. Everything you say is either inflammatory or condescending. So I'm not gonna bother with you anymore. I'd rather debate with people who actually care about facts rather than making up nonsense to fit their narrative.
    Dude, when you just constantly make up shit, no one is gunna wanna have a conversation with ya.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    1. They can turn any second, that is the issue, and when you have a city in lockdown like that, with the fear of the dead rising and murdering you, no one is going to cooperate. Everyone is going to try and flee the city, and in that chaos is where the armies will fall and the dead will rise. Have fucking non of y'all seen literally ANY ZOMBIE MOVIE EVER?
    And what happens when you go around murdering everyone? Guess what, everyone is going to try and flee the city... it's the exact same situation. Panic and no cooperation... it doesn't prevent the panic and disarray.
    By the timewalking event Arthas tell people to guard the bridge and entrance to the city. Which makes it clear that's the only way in or out... which is an easy position to defend as well as moving non-turned people through in orderly fashion.

    You are arguing an position that it's not worth trying to save uninfected, especially when it can be done in a "safely" manner even if it results in the entire city still being wiped out. What separates a good and a bad person isn't necessarily the results, but how you got there.

    2. YES HE DID, did you forget the entire time traveling to the city? He knew what was going on. He knew what awaited him. He just hoped he would arrive before the wheat did, that entire horse ride he was thinking about what would need to be done if the outbreak started. And he did. It's a hard choices but one that needed to be made.
    Where you get this from? Genuine question...my information is from wc3 and the culling of stratholme timewalking which is a repeat of wc3. Which doesn't mention much of his travels and thoughts on his way to stratholme that I could find when it comes to solutions to the problem. His dialogue does however show that he haven't shared his knowledge with Uther on the way. Which paints him in worse light...

    Wow very nice pet thing that is not at all comparable. But yeah sure. If your dog starts foaming at the mouth and trying to rip out your throat, I'm sure you will just qaurntine it for a day and then it will be fine.
    Except that it is comparable... you are talking about symptoms that are showing. So you essentially change my comparison to be able to say it's not comparable. Which yeah, of course, it is if you change it to something else. The culling was killing everyone, symptoms or not... which the vet thing is about. It's also about how someone faces a problem and how you act about it, which is the more important part.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2020-08-31 at 06:41 PM.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuujin View Post
    The "Culling" people seem to have forgotten that there is more to Arthas' story than just that one event. There was also the whole Northrend, trapping his men in the frozen North, hiring a bunch of mercenaries to burn their ships and then betraying them and acting like they did it maliciously without his involvement to get his men to kill them and hide his guilt.

    So yes, if you just focus on the Culling, his actions could be justified. Beyond that, nope. He was headed down a dark and evil path, consumed by personal vengeance and no longer motivated by his love for of his people.
    The entire human campaign of Warcraft 3 is arthas slowly falling deeper and deeper into the darkness until he was ready to take up frostmourne.

    The legion played him and played him well..slowly corrupting him and in a way he didn't notice but ithers did.

    In the end yeah likely should have gone revendreth not maw assuming he has his soul back since i doubt he is fully irredeenable

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    "Figure out how long it takes people to turn"

    Minutes to days, they already saw people turn minutes after eating the wheat, while some took days.

    "Qaunrtine the city, and then save the not infected" so who? Cause by that point they are literally all fucking dead.
    Save the ones not infected?

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Yes. Kill all infected, and all who are highly likely to be infected. That's literally every fucking zombie thing ever. You are the guy in every zombie movie who goes "hey guys no it's just a bite it's fine" that then leads to EVERYONE dying.
    That's why you keep people isolated / shackled if necessary. After time has passed if they haven't turned they're not infected. Would sort out liars. How am I that guy btw? I'm talking about Arthas's decision, not a random citizen. You're the guy who would walk into a place that has a zombie problem and say... just nuke the town.

    That by the way would be done before any sort of reasonable measure like quarantining, or trying to find a cure. Fuck it just nuke it. Lazy and immoral.
    Last edited by ro9ue; 2020-08-31 at 06:49 PM.

  14. #154
    I mean he could've called scientists in hazard suits to take blood samples and run them under microscopes and came up with zombietests and shit to check who was infected and then put up different tents and divide the population and... by the time I got to the second word the whole city would've been slaughtered by the zombified people anyways. noone seen any zombie movie?

    If Arthas did nothing, the whole city would've fallen TO THE SCOURGE, bolstering its horde of zombies. So what he did was saving those souls from getting zombified. Sometimes giving death is saving from worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Save the ones not infected?



    That's why you keep people isolated / shackled if necessary. After time has passed if they haven't turned they're not infected. Would sort out liars. How am I that guy btw? I'm talking about Arthas's decision, not a random citizen. You're the guy who would walk into a place that has a zombie problem and say... just nuke the town.

    That by the way would be done before any sort of reasonable measure like quarantining, or trying to find a cure. Fuck it just nuke it. Lazy and immoral.
    It sounds good on paper. Saving the people and all that. But where do you get chains? Where do you shackle them? In their houses? Having them watch as their beloveds turn to zombies? How do you feed them? Where do you get the infrastructure for that? It's medieval-esque setting. From which settlement do you think you could bring food and water! closest to Stratholme? How do you deal with Malganis?
    Sorry to say but you didn't really think through what it would have taken to actually do what you suggest.
    Last edited by Lei; 2020-08-31 at 07:37 PM.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    But stripped of his soul or not... he still meant to do it.

    I’d say that makes him pretty culpable for his actions.
    You do realize that even in the real world we have a legal defense called diminished capacity, which can be something as simple as severe emotional shock. Literally having your soul, your conscience, your sense of right and wrong, removed from you is quite a bit higher than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    He wasn't stripped of his soul. He may have had the last parts of 'good side' removed or suppressed, but he didn't fight it. He got what he wanted, and melded with the other components (Ner'zhul, etc.) to become the Lich King. At the very least he was a willing accomplice.
    I've been trying to find the source, but can't. But there was a conversation someone had with Arthas that went something to the tune of. "Frostmourne is a sword with the power to consume souls. And the first soul it fed on... was yours."
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Arthas Rise of the Lich King. Its the newest, most detailed, and most accurate version of the events we have.
    That sounds interesting, I really need to check out the Books.

  17. #157
    Quarantine? isolate? shackles? Jesus Christ some people here really didn't read or play the campaigns, there was not enough time to do that, they didn't have enough manpower for quarantine and hold the position against the people that soon to be undead, did not have enough time to send for reinforcements, it was impossible to know who is infected and who is not, how many people are infected, etc etc etc, Malganis teleport and gather people around Stratholme, there was no time for the fairy tails some of you preach here, only thing Arthas could have done better was how he killed people, him running like the coward Uther and Jaina would have means far more deaths than Stratholme in the long run, and the scourge been a greater threat

    With Arthas culling Stratholme or not the people inside would have died no matter what decision he took

  18. #158
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    Quarantine? isolate? shackles? Jesus Christ some people here really didn't read or play the campaigns, there was not enough time to do that, they didn't have enough manpower for quarantine and hold the position against the people that soon to be undead, did not have enough time to send for reinforcements, it was impossible to know who is infected and who is not, how many people are infected, etc etc etc, Malganis teleport and gather people around Stratholme, there was no time for the fairy tails some of you preach here, only thing Arthas could have done better was how he killed people, him running like the coward Uther and Jaina would have means far more deaths than Stratholme in the long run, and the scourge been a greater threat

    With Arthas culling Stratholme or not the people inside would have died no matter what decision he took
    They didn't have the manpower to quarantine because Arthas stripped the Silver Hand of all its power and dismissed them. Uther had brought the full strength of the order in Lordaeron to Stratholme. The City only has the one entrance and exit it would be easy to control the flow in and out with the entire Silver Hand helping.

    Killing everyone didn't even work they just rose again after Arthas left so the culling was entirely pointless.

  19. #159
    I think you have a funny idea of a redemption arc.

    You already saw it with Illidan. Illidan is a dick. Yet, his goals matched with ours.
    I imagine that with Arthas it will be the same. He is not gonna turn into a goody two shoes, just like Illidan didn't. He will have bigger fish to fry.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post

    It sounds good on paper. Saving the people and all that. But where do you get chains? Where do you shackle them? In their houses? Having them watch as their beloveds turn to zombies? How do you feed them? Where do you get the infrastructure for that? It's medieval-esque setting. From which settlement do you think you could bring food and water! closest to Stratholme? How do you deal with Malganis?
    Sorry to say but you didn't really think through what it would have taken to actually do what you suggest.
    1) I did think about what it requires, so if doing the right thing is hard... just kill everyone?

    2) Cities have prisons, put infected people there. Send a rider out to get food. Jaina could've summoned food as a mage or teleported goods.

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