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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    Since he had a fel spike/crystal poking out of his chest where his heart and lungs should be.. I just assumed he was undead I can't remember if he is classified in-game as undead in magister terrace tho.
    It's what basically kept him alive, but he was never dead-dead/undead. Not that he didn't look it though... XD

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Another outcome that can occur in Revendreth is that a condemned soul can become one of the Venthyr, not found worthy of another afterlife scenario but also not worthy of a one-way trip to the Maw. All the major Venthyr you encounter in Revendreth are former criminals and miscreants, whose "sins" are expunged in the form of a sinstone, and given a new identity and form as Venthyr, using their inside knowledge of their own crimes and reformation to continue the process on new souls who arrive in need of castigation and reform.
    Is this from the beta? Blizzard's Shadowlands preview states that Venthyr are souls that were successfully reformed, but chose to remain in Revendreth instead of being filtered into another afterlife.

  3. #43
    Prepare to have all your questions unanswered and ignored. None of you remember WoD, Legion and BFA hey?

  4. #44
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    So wait, does that mean when one is not found worthy of an afterlife but also not worthy to go to hell, they transform into Venthyr? I thought Venthyr was its own distinct ancient race in Shadowlands. So if a Tauren soul goes to Revendreth and has their sins expunged, but cannot get an afterlife, they transform into a Venthyr (vampire humanoid?)
    Based on the quests in Revendreth, it appears as if the Venthyr are actually made from penitent souls from other worlds/universes/realities, and that becoming one of the Venthyr is a possible outcome from a soul's time in Revendreth. There *are* souls also sent on to a second judgment and another afterlife realm if they successfully reform, and also souls sent to the Maw if they completely fail to reform. How often previously condemned souls become Venthyr can't really be said yet. But all the major Venthyr we encounter in Revendreth used to have other identities as formerly living beings from elsewhere. The Accuser was an assassin who "accidentally" killed her own daughter, another was apparently a former despot, and another was an unethical scientist whose experimentation led to genocide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Is this from the beta? Blizzard's Shadowlands preview states that Venthyr are souls that were successfully reformed, but chose to remain in Revendreth instead of being filtered into another afterlife.
    That's basically still true, yes. I assume that becoming Venthyr counts as a successful reformation.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  5. #45
    Elemental Lord Kyphael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyattbw09 View Post
    So forgive me if I'm totally wrong about this I'm about to simply repeat something I heard on the Blizzard Watch Podcast (which assumes I'm repeating what they said back correctly). My understanding is most souls end up going back into the world. They become cleansed in SL and then go back to some sort of physical form again on some world someplace. A few go to the Maw for enteral damnation. Some choose to stay in SL and do the work of a Covenant, but most don't stay in SL for all time. We just get a very asymmetrical view because we meet the souls that have chosen to stay there.
    That makes sense. Now, my question is, for those who choose to stay in Shadowlands, they then take the form of the race representative of the Covenant they'll be working with? Like I know Uther becomes blue like Kyrian, but it sounds like those who begin to do the work of say, Revendreth, they then physically turn into Venthyr?

  6. #46
    Yes they do, if I am recalling correctly one of the souls you meet in Bastion is a Kyrian but we are told they were a Tauren in life.

  7. #47
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Still for Devos it's never about power; she genuinely believes she is doing the right thing that would make the Shadowlands more just. It's Lysonia, her second in command that only really cares about the power she can get by serving the Jailer.
    But for Devos it seems it was more about being personally snubbed by the Archon.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  8. #48
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    True. Which is petty. But she was not snubbed just by the Archon, she was snubbed by all her peers. She saw something that terrified her, Kyrestia said "Whatever" and the rest gave her the stink eye. It certainly is the kind of situation that breaks your faith in the system.
    She was the Paragon of Loyalty yet was shown no Loyalty by her peers.

    And it helps that she was right. Sure the way she went about it was catastrophically bad. But she was right that something was going on and if they had listened perhaps the entire plot would have been snipped in the bud and we would not have a night elf barbeque.
    I agree that the Archon dropped the ball pretty heavily, and I kind of wonder why Devos didn't Uther before the tribunal or what have you and just let Kyrestia and everyone else see what she saw in Uther's memories. But I think the Kyrians are just so hidebound and dogmatic after eons of doing things a certain way they were just completely unable to see things as they truly were. The Jailer's banishment had become an article of faith, more or less; and it's difficult to reason with fixed zealotry.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  9. #49
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    Honestly it's just all completely arbitrary at this point. It's more of Blizzard's trademark "Morally Gray" that they touted totally took place last expansion even though the cracks are starting to pop up everywhere. Heck we can't even take what Devos says about the Maw being the place where all the evil has been locked up and that's where threats to the Shadowlands go when it's just as easily the place everyone else just agreed to team up and seal off because they decided that is it what they would do on that Sunday. Especially when you consider how shady and self serving each of the covenants are which doesn't exactly make them look trustworthy and raises the principle question of why on Azeroth would any of us side with them and it just boils down to because the game said so.

    I mean just going by the fact that people assume the Arbiter judges based on Good and Evil and not their own whims and everybody just follows along as they get their anima and soldiers in a steady supply. Basically the Shadowlands system is a joke but the players have to follow it because the game says so.
    Argus' Nightmare Continues With Shadowlands
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    You're right that it doesn't mean they did nothing wrong, but it does explicitly mean they're redeemable - if you're fully irredeemable, you'd go straight to the Maw.

    Though I'm kind of skeptical of any system where any Kyrian can essentially wait out a person's death that they can astrally sense and then toss them into the Maw to effectively burn in hell with no means of extraction for all time, and there's no way to see this has happened since we only learn it from Uther after he switches sides. Sure, this time it was Arthas, but they could do it to anyone they have a beef with.

    I also think the topic itself is beside the point because the in-story judgment of the Arbiter is different from the out of story moral judgment of the players.
    Isnt this why they have them erase their memories to get rid of that beef or whatever. Also the whole training thing for eons (however long that is)

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    I though all undead go to the Maw? I think that's why Sylvanas went there, because she's undead
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    i think it was based off the the short story novel. edge of the night.
    No, this has never been a thing. Players assumed it was a thing because Sylvanas went to the good place when Arthas killed her and the bad place when she killed herself, and concluded that literally the only possible explanation is that all undead go to the bad place because it couldn't possibly be that Sylvanas was a bad person.

  12. #52
    @Nymrohd @NED funded

    It is. It's a decent bit of world building, but still prone to abuse. I'm still kind of skeptical of how this whole things gels with the val'kyr. Setting aside pure retcons, largely in how easily the flow of the afterlife is hijacked. Uther's soul is uniquely fucked because of Frostmourne, but what about those who're brought back through common necromancy, their souls still trapped in their bodies?
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    No, this has never been a thing. Players assumed it was a thing because Sylvanas went to the good place when Arthas killed her and the bad place when she killed herself, and concluded that literally the only possible explanation is that all undead go to the bad place because it couldn't possibly be that Sylvanas was a bad person.
    WOTLK Sylvanas didn't deserve the Maw, that's a fact.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    WOTLK Sylvanas didn't deserve the Maw, that's a fact.
    Every Sylvanas since Vanilla deserves the Maw. She may not have succeeded, but her plan since day one of WOW was to develop a plague that would wipe out all living beings on Azeroth and turn them into Forsaken. That was why the Royal Apothecary existed that was their task.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyattbw09 View Post
    Every Sylvanas since Vanilla deserves the Maw. She may not have succeeded, but her plan since day one of WOW was to develop a plague that would wipe out all living beings on Azeroth and turn them into Forsaken. That was why the Royal Apothecary existed that was their task.
    Complete bullshit for both your statements. The plague was for Arthas

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Oh Shadowlands only make sense as a self-contained system. Blizzard has made almost no effort to use it to explain death in Warcraft up till now.
    Oh, I know there's zero point in trying to apply it to prior content. Uther is contradictory in a million different levels. In TBC because he was in Frostmourne, in Wrath because he wasn't and was a free floating ghost in the chamber, in Legion because he was in Bastion and in Shadowlands for all of the above. I mean what's the new fangled explanation for it.

    Also, mentally prepare yourself when they say that Sylvanas's bad half was there because Danuser recently played Starcraft II and thought that 'you may have killed millions of people, but at the very least you made me happy' is good enough for redemption stories.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Hey, I have to quit wow at some point in my life, might as well be when Sylvanas screams "Shadowlands is Free" next to Tyrande and Thrall
    I have to say, the fact that the narrative tried to lambast Uther for having a grievance against Arthas and imply this was irrational and petty actually got on my tits.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  18. #58
    I think it's clear that it doesn't mean that a soul did nothing wrong, but I don't agree about redeemable. Redeemable is exactly what Revendreth means. It doesn't mean good, but it means that some form of redemption is possible for the character if they repent of their crimes in life.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Complete bullshit for both your statements. The plague was for Arthas
    There are literal quests in game in which you are tasked with helping the Royal Apothecary perfect a plague that turns living beings into undead. It has nothing to do with the Scourge.

  20. #60
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I have to say, the fact that the narrative tried to lambast Uther for having a grievance against Arthas and imply this was irrational and petty actually got on my tits.
    I didn't really feel that the narrative ever made Uther's grievance with Arthas seem irrational or petty - I actually thought it cast the Kyrians in a bad light instead, and I definitely feel that Uther depositing Arthas in the Maw is definitively closer to justice than it is vengeance (though I can't deny it contains a bit from both column A and B). Given the general arc of the Bastion zone and Kyrian Covenant, I think the above takeaway is probably closer to the intended one.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

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