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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by BrintoSFJ View Post
    Ravendrath is an opportunity, not a sure way towards redemption. Look at Kaelthas, if we did not interfere, the accuser would surely sent him to MAW just for being a pretentious twat! He refused to acknowledge his crimes time and time again and continued to blame others. If the Shadowlands was not in crisis the Accuser would surely send him to the MAW. She would not be so patient and understanding.
    Treating souls takes eons, Kael does not really display any special behavior, Revendreth is full with souls like that and it is a Venthyr's job to fix that attitude not throw them into the maw at the first sign of trouble.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    If Kael can go there Sylvanas should too. The first time she died after wotlk she wasn’t genociding anyone just yet so redemption should still be an option. I hope Sylvanas finished her mission succesful and overthrows the unjust system of the Arbiter. It is clear that said system isn’t fair and needs a major rework. That is Sylvaans’ true goal and I fully understand her motives are the right ones. I would doe the same if the system screwed me over like that.
    That's exactly how I feel. It's a perfectly valid motivation for a villain or anyone really, it doesn't try to be some "for the greater good" thing. Just an individual trying get back at the system that wronged them.

    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Sylvanas deserves to be a raid boss for me to beat the ever-unliving fuck outta.

    Seriously tho: I hope she gets trapped somewhere in the Maw. Would be peak irony.
    Not gonna lie, if they keep Sylvanas in the Maw I want her last scene to be like the ending of that movie with Jet Li

    except with her as Jet Li fighting other souls in the Maw. Haters would be happy because she lost and would never appear again, I would be happy because she got a badass send-off. Bye
    Last edited by bagina; 2020-09-01 at 07:17 PM.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by DeltrusDisc View Post
    I think Nobbel87 understands this better than you - or me, and obviously we'll find out more soon, but he surmised that what might actually happen is everyone goes before the Arbiter to be judged, but we don't remember that part. For instance, Uther doesn't remember it and is suddenly being whisked off and told how he was chosen to be in Bastion, yet he didn't know.

    I think the Arbiter had already decided Sylvanas should go to Revendreth, now whether or not that's missing from the older part of the story, or maybe she doesn't remember it, she obviously ended up in the Maw and something is very much amiss.

    Something doesn't quite add up... unless you're right and she got sucked straight into the Maw, which is possible, I suppose if the Jailer saw her and liked her and somehow had the ability... hmmm...
    Eh, after the Bastion cinematic and Devos specifically saying Frostmourne had Maw runes and magic, I'm even more sure that shattering Frostmourne and releasing so many souls at the same time was the first "crack" in the Shadowlands (remember that time flows differently there, and what for them happened long ago could happen a few years ago in our time scale).

    IMO Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination are direct crafts of the Jailer with how infused with the Maw magic they are. I think he played long-con, it's not unusual for swords to break. The sudden stream of souls infused with Maw magic could potentially harm the Arbiter in some way, "disabling" her and making the Maw grow stronger. Then he just needed someone powerful enough to fuel more souls into the Maw until the right moment, when the Jailer is strong enough to be prepared for the shattering of the veil by destroying the Helm of Domination.

    I'm still 100% sure Sylvanas is being used and hopefully she will perish miserably. Having a former high elf outthink and get advantage of such a powerful cosmic-like character from the afterlife realm would be the death of WoW's lore to me.

  4. #124
    The Patient BrintoSFJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Treating souls takes eons, Kael does not really display any special behavior, Revendreth is full with souls like that and it is a Venthyr's job to fix that attitude not throw them into the maw at the first sign of trouble.
    Time works differently in Shadowlands, it may have been a few years in the living world but maybe Kaelthas has already lived in Shadowlands for eons.
    Moderators on this site are, to put it nicely, morons. They believe any opinion contrary to popular ones are either trolling or flaming or baiting. They can not comprehend the fact that there can be people who would utterly detest what they like or million others like. Well, it is their site and their "Authoretaeh" but they are morons nonetheless.

  5. #125
    The Insane General Zanjin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talrath View Post
    Who do you mean
    there are people in revendreth that have destroyed planets and have had a chance at redemption.
    everyone can be redeemed.
    #tracerisawesomelycute
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ght=shada%27in
    Mods are bias
    "I believe in honor but when it comes to war i will do whatever it takes to protect or save my family" -General Zanjin

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by BrintoSFJ View Post
    Time works differently in Shadowlands, it may have been a few years in the living world but maybe Kaelthas has already lived in Shadowlands for eons.
    Time does not work that different and you misunderstand the Venthyr entirely, while they do punish their ultimate goal is to save souls from the maw, even at the cost to themselves.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-09-01 at 08:41 PM.

  7. #127
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    Eh, after the Bastion cinematic and Devos specifically saying Frostmourne had Maw runes and magic, I'm even more sure that shattering Frostmourne and releasing so many souls at the same time was the first "crack" in the Shadowlands (remember that time flows differently there, and what for them happened long ago could happen a few years ago in our time scale).

    IMO Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination are direct crafts of the Jailer with how infused with the Maw magic they are. I think he played long-con, it's not unusual for swords to break. The sudden stream of souls infused with Maw magic could potentially harm the Arbiter in some way, "disabling" her and making the Maw grow stronger. Then he just needed someone powerful enough to fuel more souls into the Maw until the right moment, when the Jailer is strong enough to be prepared for the shattering of the veil by destroying the Helm of Domination.

    I'm still 100% sure Sylvanas is being used and hopefully she will perish miserably. Having a former high elf outthink and get advantage of such a powerful cosmic-like character from the afterlife realm would be the death of WoW's lore to me.
    Completely agree with you. It's like how we IMA FIRIN MAH LAZORRRRR at Mr. Supposedly Infinitely Intelligent N'Zoth... it's stupid.
    Stay healthy and safe, my friends. <3

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    That's exactly how I feel. It's a perfectly valid motivation for a villain or anyone really, it doesn't try to be some "for the greater good" thing. Just an individual trying get back at the system that wronged them.



    Not gonna lie, if they keep Sylvanas in the Maw I want her last scene to be like the ending of that movie with Jet Li

    except with her as Jet Li fighting other souls in the Maw. Haters would be happy because she lost and would never appear again, I would be happy because she got a badass send-off. Bye
    Fuck no. She and all her fanboys deserve the exact same level of send off everyone in her way got. A cheap "oh fuck you, they're WAAAYYYY too powerful for no fucking reason and make this otherwise stupid powerful lore character look like a chump!" with no satisfaction.
    O Flora, of the moon, of the dream. O Little ones, O fleeting will of the ancients. Let the hunter be safe. Let them find comfort. And let this dream, their captor, Foretell a pleasant awakening

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena View Post
    By the time he donned that helm he was no longer Arthas, his soul had already been consumed by Frostmourne so I doubt ripping his heart out had any effect upon him aside from a symbolic one.

    The Lich King exists between Death and Undeath, he is neither and both, I find it very difficult to put him in the same category as Sylvannas, The Scourge or the Forsaken.
    In the abovementioned questline he remarks it was, in fact, holding him back slightly. We even meet the metaphysical representation of what's left of Arthas' humanity, before Tirion destroys the heart and sadly it was well.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  10. #130
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    And the fact that you have people like Kel'thuzad in Maldraxxus show that "bad guy souls" don't even need to find redemption/ go to the maw.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    I'm still 100% sure Sylvanas is being used and hopefully she will perish miserably. Having a former high elf outthink and get advantage of such a powerful cosmic-like character from the afterlife realm would be the death of WoW's lore to me.
    THAT is going to offend your atrophied taste buds? Not the entire pages of bullshit that happened for years?

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    THAT is going to offend your atrophied taste buds? Not the entire pages of bullshit that happened for years?
    Eh, everyone has their own lines and limits. For me, even though the lore recently has been pretty bad, it wasn't THAT bad for me to say "Okay that's enough, I'm quitting this shit, I want nothing to do with this pathetic bullshit". Sylvanas beating / using the Jailer (even with good intentions) would be that line for me.

  13. #133
    I thought Kel'Thuzad was in Maldraxxus because liches could travel between the Shadowlands and reality, presumably using their phylactery.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    And the fact that you have people like Kel'thuzad in Maldraxxus show that "bad guy souls" don't even need to find redemption/ go to the maw.
    Vashj wasn't a very nice woman either. She wanted to steal all the water from Zangarmarsh, and that's terrible.

    Also, isn't Kel'thuzad from the Maw? We know he works for the Jailor and now I can't help but imagine him excitedly showing Sylvanas his new ghost cat at the Evil Council sessions and teasing her about how they're on the same side again after all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Eh? The conflict is resolved by Sylvanas throwing a hissy fit and yeeting out to solo the Lich King. After a Mak'gora, but she and Saurfang might as well have been brawling in a bar in the Drag for all the difference that made. The Mak'gora itself was so inconsequential that whoever actually won it didn't matter at all.
    The symbolism of the challenge and how it relates to orcish culture is at the heart of it. It's metaphorically Saurfang, the face of the Horde of the past by the writers' own words, using the most Horde means of succession to reveal someone alien to that culture and succeeding. Everything from the publicity to even the value of single combat alone are key to Mak'gora. He did use it in an unconventional way, but that's a far cry from saying it's entirely incidental.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-09-02 at 07:54 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    Many people have very binary thinking patterns, and that shows once again. Either someone is irredeemable, or a good guy, there's nothing in-between.
    Curiously this is a fundamental flaw in narratives historically both in literature, history and present day scenes.

    For example: If a Political leader has a scandal of an affair, their standing publicly would plummet. This is irrespective of how they conducted themselves as a leader. Their private affair has tarred their reputation in the public view even though there could be very reasonable grounds for which they had an affair. Trump has been a unique modern political leader in that his supporters are willing to overlook unsavoury characteristics in favour of another driving factor they value.

    In Harry Potter - Snape was a nasty vile teacher who had it out for Harry from day 1 with seemingly no justification. Throughout the books he is seen in a negative light - he is a villain! However, he subsequently is "redeemed" as he is portrayed both as a victim (from James Potter's bullying and Voldemort's betrayal) and a hero (from protecting Harry throughout the books, taking the blame for murdering Dumbledore).

    In WOW the original telling of the Orc's were as bloodthirsty savages who came war mongering to Azeroth (Villains!) and then we find out they were suffering under corruption of their leadership and the influence of Fel Power (Victim-Villains) and then they experienced a redemption arc through WC3 with Thrall.

    There is an underlying desire to "Pick a side" and to decide if something is Good or Bad when in most cases in the game, it depends on what perspective you're coming from. The Undead did not CHOOSE to become Undead, and yet were persecuted relentlessly by Human's post being freed from the Scourge.

    There are a very limited list of Characters who are wholly good (Uther, Fordring, Cairne/Baine) and equally a limited list of wholly evil (Archimonde, Kil'Jaeden, Hogger). Hopefully Blizzard does a good job establishing the spectrum of good/evil with this afterlife expansion and avoids using cliche deus ex machina like they did with Illidan.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    well...there was this gynormous fel crystal stuck in his chest powering him in magisters terrace. and to make certain this time he stayed dead we cut off his head. id say he was pretty much undead and then dead dead..
    It's stated lore-wise he escaped death thanks to Priestess Delrissa. He was kept alive by fel magic, so he wasn't dead. He was only dead after we chopped off his head. He wasn't undead because he wasn't brought back from being dead - he didn't die.

  17. #137
    You got it half right, OP.

    Revendreth DOES mean a soul is redeemable, or it goes straight to the Maw. Although they don't always succeed and they go the maw anyway.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Vashj wasn't a very nice woman either. She wanted to steal all the water from Zangarmarsh, and that's terrible.
    Which isn't even scratching the surface of all the things she actually did, but she goes off to Maldraxxus anyway. As usual you can see the rule of cool at work here in combination with blizz's half baked afterlife rules.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post


    The symbolism of the challenge and how it relates to orcish culture is at the heart of it. It's metaphorically Saurfang, the face of the Horde of the past by the writers' own words, using the most Horde means of succession to reveal someone alien to that culture and succeeding. Everything from the publicity to even the value of single combat alone are key to Mak'gora. He did use it in an unconventional way, but that's a far cry from saying it's entirely incidental.
    I mean if we're reduced to talking about symbolism we can say that Saurfang ditching the Orcish axe and scratching Sylvanas with an elven weapon mostly associated with a human symbolizes the world peace brigade against the cartoonish villain Sylvanas or whatever. It relates shit to Orcish culture because the duel is decided by super death magic delegated to Sylvie by some outside force (which we don't even know if it counts as a cheat but w/e) and ends with the theoretical victor peacing out leaving a power vacuum that doesn't end in a bloody mess only because this is after all an idealistic story and setting. Some efficient means of settling conflicts, that Mak'gora business, I can tell you that. As I said, they could have been fighting in front of Varian's statue in Stormwind at Anduin's invitation and it wouldn't have changed much of anything.

    As for Vashj going to Maldraxxus, to be fair she's as confused as we all are at first, but it ends up fitting her like a glove. One guesses that whatever were her crimes weren't enough to punt her to Revendreth, perhaps in part because she did it all at someone else's behest.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    As for Vashj going to Maldraxxus, to be fair she's as confused as we all are at first, but it ends up fitting her like a glove. One guesses that whatever were her crimes weren't enough to punt her to Revendreth, perhaps in part because she did it all at someone else's behest.
    The more we learn about Shadowlands, the bigger insight we have to the collective cesspit called mind of the "writers". And its not pretty. Some seriously disturbing implications.

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