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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I mean if we're reduced to talking about symbolism we can say that Saurfang ditching the Orcish axe and scratching Sylvanas with an elven weapon mostly associated with a human symbolizes the world peace brigade against the cartoonish villain Sylvanas or whatever. It relates shit to Orcish culture because the duel is decided by super death magic delegated to Sylvie by some outside force (which we don't even know if it counts as a cheat but w/e) and ends with the theoretical victor peacing out leaving a power vacuum that doesn't end in a bloody mess only because this is after all an idealistic story and setting. Some efficient means of settling conflicts, that Mak'gora business, I can tell you that. As I said, they could have been fighting in front of Varian's statue in Stormwind at Anduin's invitation and it wouldn't have changed much of anything.
    I think you're being a bit pedantic here. Sure, no one won according to the conditions presented, but neither did anyone during the first Thrall or Garrosh Mak'gora and there was cheating in the one between Cairne and Garrosh. Nevertheless, its use still communicated something. Saurfang used a tool - Mak'gora, that is exclusive to the Horde and the orcs to challenge the Warchief publicly. He did so in a setting where it would have been a large audience. What you say about the way of use being influenced by humans is true, given how he doesn't go in to win, but I think that's also intentional, to show how he's using the old custom in a new way to expose said fraud. It is a very idealistic and saccharine scenario to be sure, but it's all pretty clear and while I don't like a lot of Saurfang's story, all this stuff is pretty clear and it's why I've defended bits of Reckoning and that Dustwallow Marsh business in isolation. The setting - the orcish capital, right in front of it, the audience - the two sides of the Horde, all of these things are exclusive to Mak'gora. No Horde honor challenge and Sylvanas could've just death beamed him passively and gone on her way. It's her lack of care for these things that delegitimized her. I'm not addressing if the way she revealed herself or the audience's reaction made sense, I've spilled plenty of ink on those topics before, only that the meaning of Mak'gora in particular being used there is pretty important.
    @Combatbulter

    As for Vashj going to Maldraxxus, to be fair she's as confused as we all are at first, but it ends up fitting her like a glove. One guesses that whatever were her crimes weren't enough to punt her to Revendreth, perhaps in part because she did it all at someone else's behest.
    She worked for Azshara because she was a posh rich girl who was jealous of Tyrande. She would've ended the world twice. I don't mind her going to Maldraxxus, but the morality of the afterlife is batshit. There's apparently a guy in Revendreth who destroyed planets and still got a shot at redemption.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    She worked for Azshara because she was a posh rich girl who was jealous of Tyrande. She would've ended the world twice. I don't mind her going to Maldraxxus, but the morality of the afterlife is batshit. There's apparently a guy in Revendreth who destroyed planets and still got a shot at redemption.
    Oh I know, I have beta, there are quite a few sinstones which have an enormous kill count and some who killed just a bunch of dudes, the system is all over the place.

  3. #143
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Oh I know, I have beta, there are quite a few sinstones which have an enormous kill count and some who killed just a bunch of dudes, the system is all over the place.
    The criteria for being consigned to Revendreth seems to be less based on what any one individual has done, and more on whether there is potential for them to recognize and show remorse (and thus seek reformation) for those misdeeds. Whether you're a world-killer or a regular killer isn't material, as long as you could conceivably realize what you've done and why you've done it, and seek redemption for that fact, you'll be sent to Revendreth. The only beings sent directly to the Maw are those who could and likely would upset the balance of the metacosm - beings whose portfolio of evil extends well beyond even genocide.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The criteria for being consigned to Revendreth seems to be less based on what any one individual has done, and more on whether there is potential for them to recognize and show remorse (and thus seek reformation) for those misdeeds. Whether you're a world-killer or a regular killer isn't material, as long as you could conceivably realize what you've done and why you've done it, and seek redemption for that fact, you'll be sent to Revendreth. The only beings sent directly to the Maw are those who could and likely would upset the balance of the metacosm - beings whose portfolio of evil extends well beyond even genocide.
    Throwing things directly into the maw is just pure lunacy, it would grant the Jailer power after all, so every twisted soul would have a stop in revendreth anyway, so it can be tried to reform them and drain their anima in the process, leaving the Jailer scraps for anima once some souls eventually arrive there.

  5. #145
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Throwing things directly into the maw is just pure lunacy, it would grant the Jailer power after all, so every twisted soul would have a stop in revendreth anyway, so it can be tried to reform them and drain their anima in the process, leaving the Jailer scraps for anima once some souls eventually arrive there.
    Perhaps the functioning Arbiter does this herself for those rare souls who are consigned directly to the Maw - simply extracts all the soul's anima at once and tosses them into the Maw bereft of power, ensuring that the Jailer gains nothing. Which would also make Uther and Devos' actions concerning Arthas a huge mistake on another level entirely, as they'd be tossing a soul still likely brimming with Anima directly into the Maw for the Jailer to make use of.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Perhaps the functioning Arbiter does this herself for those rare souls who are consigned directly to the Maw - simply extracts all the soul's anima at once and tosses them into the Maw bereft of power, ensuring that the Jailer gains nothing. Which would also make Uther and Devos' actions concerning Arthas a huge mistake on another level entirely, as they'd be tossing a soul still likely brimming with Anima directly into the Maw for the Jailer to make use of.
    Why give the Arbiter an extra task, when you already have an entire region of the shadowlands dedicated to said task? There is no sound reason to do so.

  7. #147
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Why give the Arbiter an extra task, when you already have an entire region of the shadowlands dedicated to said task? There is no sound reason to do so.
    Given the likely power of the Arbiter, I doubt this would rank as a "task" in any real sense. The Venthyr are also supposed to reform a given soul, which isn't just draining anima but also a longwinded process of breaking down the person's delusions, pride, and willfulness to force them to contend with their own crimes. This wouldn't be required for those rare souls condemned to the Maw, as reformation would be of no benefit to them (or to the Shadowlands) given the givens. It's just a matter of judge, drain, and toss into the proverbial garbage. No need for eons of attempted reformation in WoW purgatory.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Given the likely power of the Arbiter, I doubt this would rank as a "task" in any real sense. The Venthyr are also supposed to reform a given soul, which isn't just draining anima but also a longwinded process of breaking down the person's delusions, pride, and willfulness to force them to contend with their own crimes. This wouldn't be required for those rare souls condemned to the Maw, as reformation would be of no benefit to them (or to the Shadowlands) given the givens. It's just a matter of judge, drain, and toss into the proverbial garbage. No need for eons of attempted reformation in WoW purgatory.
    It is an extra step that is unnecessary, no matter how you look at it, if a soul does not repent in revendreth it ends up in the maw after several thousands years of torment regardless, but feeding that realm and all within, so why add an instant maw button if there is absolutely zero reason to do so, an irredeemable soul ends up there regardless and is tortured most of the time as well.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    why add an instant maw button if there is absolutely zero reason to do so, an irredeemable soul ends up there regardless and is tortured most of the time as well.
    One big purpose of the maw button is for souls that, if not imprisoned there, would pose a threat to the Shadowlands themselves.

    Sylvanas for example would (as she herself ended up proving) absolutely fall into this category, which is presumably why she was tossed in there after Wrath. (That she would eventually somehow find a way out was perhaps not something the Arbiter accounted for however).

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiraya View Post
    One big purpose of the maw button is for souls that, if not imprisoned there, would pose a threat to the Shadowlands themselves.
    If she ends up in revendreth she could literally do nothing she would be a powerless soul, just like all the others there. There is no purpose for an instant maw button, revendreth covers that as well and if she would fail reformation she would go to the maw regardless.

    Sylvanas for example would (as she herself ended up proving) absolutely fall into this category, which is presumably why she was tossed in there after Wrath. (That she would eventually somehow find a way out was perhaps not something the Arbiter accounted for however).
    She wouldn't at that time she did nothing that was maw worthy, she did not condemn masses to undeath, had not laid waste to entire kingdoms etc. heck she hadn't played around with any cosmic force at that point in time either.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No. If you are taking intentions into account, Arthas also thought he was doing things for the greater good, since Blizzard stated he wanted to unite the world against the Legion and create a society without war or injustice.

    Your bias for Sylvanas is showing hard.
    As is your bias for Arthas ;-)

    It's pretty simple when it comes to all the fanbois loving specific characters and making fun or other people for liking other characters...
    Like who you want to like and don't listen to other people. They are all just imaginary characters who have had their actions told by different people, so there is no way they can be a believable person since they are inconsistently portrayed.

    Personally, for me, it's simple - Sylvanas is hot, so I like her

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldrathian View Post
    As is your bias for Arthas ;-)

    It's pretty simple when it comes to all the fanbois loving specific characters and making fun or other people for liking other characters...
    Like who you want to like and don't listen to other people. They are all just imaginary characters who have had their actions told by different people, so there is no way they can be a believable person since they are inconsistently portrayed.

    Personally, for me, it's simple - Sylvanas is hot, so I like her
    I am not biased for Arthas, I even said I don't care about him nor do I want him redeemed. I am the most impartial person here, I acknowledge that if Sylvanas deserves redemption, then so does Arthas.
    I will tell you what I told my own son when he picked up his first blade and played at being a soldier. Whatever your elders have told you... War is not glory. War is seeing people at their very worst and choosing to protect them anyway.

  13. #153
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is an extra step that is unnecessary, no matter how you look at it, if a soul does not repent in revendreth it ends up in the maw after several thousands years of torment regardless, but feeding that realm and all within, so why add an instant maw button if there is absolutely zero reason to do so, an irredeemable soul ends up there regardless and is tortured most of the time as well.
    It would be dangerous to send such a soul to Revendreth if it could potentially overtake its jailers there and cause all kinds of trouble, especially since as depicted in Shadowlands itself it's not as if the Venthyr are manifestly above corruption, graft, or pride themselves. Under normal conditions consignment to the Maw is likely vanishingly rare, as the number of souls who have the power or the will to actually upset the metacosm would be perhaps one among trillions. Of the entire cast of WoW I can only think of one possible candidate, Gul'dan himself, that might qualify for being sent to the Maw without preamble, and even then that's just a maybe.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It would be dangerous to send such a soul to Revendreth if it could potentially overtake its jailers there and cause all kinds of trouble, especially since as depicted in Shadowlands itself it's not as if the Venthyr are manifestly above corruption, graft, or pride themselves.
    And how would they do it? Souls in revendreth are bound pretty much unable to do anything to the Venthyr and even if problems arise another part of the shadowlands with this exact purpose gets active, Maldraxxus, so once again why add an extra function that is already covered by the whole system? For the rule of cool? "yeah the Arbiter just threw them directly into the maw fuck yeah, how radical is that.Must have been one rotten dude"

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I think you're being a bit pedantic here. Sure, no one won according to the conditions presented, but neither did anyone during the first Thrall or Garrosh Mak'gora and there was cheating in the one between Cairne and Garrosh. Nevertheless, its use still communicated something. Saurfang used a tool - Mak'gora, that is exclusive to the Horde and the orcs to challenge the Warchief publicly. He did so in a setting where it would have been a large audience. What you say about the way of use being influenced by humans is true, given how he doesn't go in to win, but I think that's also intentional, to show how he's using the old custom in a new way to expose said fraud. It is a very idealistic and saccharine scenario to be sure, but it's all pretty clear and while I don't like a lot of Saurfang's story, all this stuff is pretty clear and it's why I've defended bits of Reckoning and that Dustwallow Marsh business in isolation. The setting - the orcish capital, right in front of it, the audience - the two sides of the Horde, all of these things are exclusive to Mak'gora. No Horde honor challenge and Sylvanas could've just death beamed him passively and gone on her way. It's her lack of care for these things that delegitimized her. I'm not addressing if the way she revealed herself or the audience's reaction made sense, I've spilled plenty of ink on those topics before, only that the meaning of Mak'gora in particular being used there is pretty important.
    @Combatbulter


    She worked for Azshara because she was a posh rich girl who was jealous of Tyrande. She would've ended the world twice. I don't mind her going to Maldraxxus, but the morality of the afterlife is batshit. There's apparently a guy in Revendreth who destroyed planets and still got a shot at redemption.
    Sylvanas doesn't even enter the Mak'gora because of any legal concern or respect for the tradition, but because she wants to make Saurfang suffer. Neither does Saurfang care about the legality, because he doesn't go in to win but as a last ditch effort to expose the batshit insane Warchief for what she is, because she's way too powerful for anyone to depose her the legal way in the first place even before anyone learns about her instant kill Kamehameha. The duel is not decided by who wins, but by who throws a tantrum and leaves. And we don't even know if said win was legal because the rules are more inconsistent than Calvinball and even people in-universe give up trying to understand that shit.

    It's akin to having an impeachment hearing for the sitting US president declare him not guilty as he's present in the Senate, but right after said verdict someone in the audience shoots him in the head. He was present because of the intended legal way to depose him, but you can't honestly say the system did its job and worked well when him not being president anymore has sweet fuck all to do with the legal way.

    Anyway, this is veering wayyy off-topic so I won't digress on the matter any further. You'll get no arguments from me that from what we know, the sorting hat of the Shadowlands seems even more arbitrary than Hogwart's. Perhaps further lore will shed light into the subject, for instance whenever the Arbiter is turned back on, but I half expect things to only become more confusing from here.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  16. #156
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    And how would they do it? Souls in revendreth are bound pretty much unable to do anything to the Venthyr and even if problems arise another part of the shadowlands with this exact purpose gets active, Maldraxxus, so once again why add an extra function that is already covered by the whole system? For the rule of cool? "yeah the Arbiter just threw them directly into the maw fuck yeah, how radical is that.Must have been one rotten dude"
    Slowly and surely corrupt your primary jailer, get a modicum of freedom, ingratiate yourself to the system, and corrupt it further from within. If Maldraxxus has to mobilize against another corrupted part of the Shadowlands then you've already upset the machinery considerably all on your own, and if you're sufficiently powerful and silver-tongued given yourself access to another populace to potentially corrupt and overtake.

    For a soul that powerful and pernicious, why run the risk? Reformation would be of no benefit, and assignment anywhere else would be potentially problematic for you. The Maw is pretty much ready-made for such a scenario - a prison realm considered inescapable and eternal.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Slowly and surely corrupt your primary jailer, get a modicum of freedom, ingratiate yourself to the system, and corrupt it further from within. If Maldraxxus has to mobilize against another corrupted part of the Shadowlands then you've already upset the machinery considerably all on your own, and if you're sufficiently powerful and silver-tongued given yourself access to another populace to potentially corrupt and overtake.

    For a soul that powerful and pernicious, why run the risk? Reformation would be of no benefit, and assignment anywhere else would be potentially problematic for you. The Maw is pretty much ready-made for such a scenario - a prison realm considered inescapable and eternal.
    So just fucking destroy them.

  18. #158
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    For a soul that powerful and pernicious, why run the risk? Reformation would be of no benefit, and assignment anywhere else would be potentially problematic for you. The Maw is pretty much ready-made for such a scenario - a prison realm considered inescapable and eternal.
    The maw may have no exit, but someone surely will be smart enough to escape using enterance.

  19. #159
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    So just fucking destroy them.
    Perhaps that's simply not an option. It would make sense to me, but I don't really make the rules of the WoW metacosm.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    The maw may have no exit, but someone surely will be smart enough to escape using enterance.
    Pretty such the entrance is a one-way trip by design, more akin to a bottomless pit than a door. It does apparently have a portal system, though; as that's what we use to escape it, so YMMV.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Slowly and surely corrupt your primary jailer, get a modicum of freedom, ingratiate yourself to the system, and corrupt it further from within. If Maldraxxus has to mobilize against another corrupted part of the Shadowlands then you've already upset the machinery considerably all on your own, and if you're sufficiently powerful and silver-tongued given yourself access to another populace to potentially corrupt and overtake.

    For a soul that powerful and pernicious, why run the risk? Reformation would be of no benefit, and assignment anywhere else would be potentially problematic for you. The Maw is pretty much ready-made for such a scenario - a prison realm considered inescapable and eternal.
    Maldraxxus sole purpose is to defend the shadowlands, not to mention the souls simply do not possess such power to begin with, take Kael for example, who has been infused with anima to the point of his soul being on the brink of destruction, yet he can be put on a leash and be easily dragged around. So why should any soul have any power in the shadowlands, the theme is always the same, these souls are powerless before the denizens of the shadowlands despite being great anima batteries.

    A direct line to the maw simply doesn't make sense, it is just redundant.

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