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  1. #161
    When Shadowlands was first announced, especially with the Maw and all I was thinking about why they don't simply destroy souls that are dangerous enough to the cosmos, instead of sending them to eternal torment. You already have the punishment angle with Revendreth, so the Maw is the solution for those you simply want to get rid of, because they are too dangerous, why not kill them?

    I think the answer is in Shadows Rising, in the speech Bwonsamdi gives to Talanji about things always coming back, like in a wheel of time. A concept or a powerful entity, everything always simply comes back once it's gone, even if it may take a long time (and it may not be the very same entity or thing, but the idea and the concept stay the same, so if it's that evil, it comes back as another evil, no chance of coming back as something good the next time).
    I think that's the crux of it all, nothing can really get erased out of existence once it leaves an actual imprint on the cosmos. Maybe the Maw is a way to protract this process, so the evils come back much later than they would have if they simply got 'killed' (because you can't erase them permanently).

  2. #162
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Maldraxxus sole purpose is to defend the shadowlands, not to mention the souls simply do not possess such power to begin with, take Kael for example, who has been infused with anima to the point of his soul being on the brink of destruction, yet he can be put on a leash and be easily dragged around. So why should any soul have any power in the shadowlands, the theme is always the same, these souls are powerless before the denizens of the shadowlands despite being great anima batteries.

    A direct line to the maw simply doesn't make sense, it is just redundant.
    Kael'thas was already judged to be suitable for an attempt at reformation, so it stands that the Arbiter didn't consider him that level of risk. The problem would remain souls that *do* have that level of power, one way or the other. If a soul *could* potentially escape its captors in Revendreth and pose a risk to the Shadowlands, it doesn't go to Revendreth.

    That's the purpose of having the Maw as an ultimate failsafe in case a soul of that kind of power or all-consuming evil arrives in Oribos.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Kael'thas was already judged to be suitable for an attempt at reformation, so it stands that the Arbiter didn't consider him that level of risk. The problem would remain souls that *do* have that level of power, one way or the other. If a soul *could* potentially escape its captors in Revendreth and pose a risk to the Shadowlands, it doesn't go to Revendreth.
    And Sylvanas had been judged for paradise and her soul did not have the power to be threat to the shadowlands during wotlk, yet went straight to the maw for round two. How could a measly banshee, who had not dabbled much in necromancy or any higher power at that point be seen as a more fundamental threat, than the servants of the void or the burning legion?

    That's the purpose of having the Maw as an ultimate failsafe in case a soul of that kind of power or all-consuming evil arrives in Oribos.
    Mortal souls do not have that kind of power, I have yet to see a single example of what you describe here. Lich king Arthas could easily be handled by a bunch of kyrian, so what kind of threat are you talking about here?

  4. #164
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    And Sylvanas had been judged for paradise and her soul did not have the power to be threat to the shadowlands during wotlk, yet went straight to the maw for round two. How could a measly banshee, who had not dabbled much in necromancy or any higher power at that point be seen as a more fundamental threat, than the servants of the void or the burning legion?
    It's quite possible, and probably even likely, that the Arbiter didn't consign Sylvanas to the Maw at Icecrown - but that her presence there was the result of external tampering (e.g. the Jailer bringing her to the Maw himself).

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Mortal souls do not have that kind of power, I have yet to see a single example of what you describe here. Lich king Arthas could easily be handled by a bunch of kyrian, so what kind of threat are you talking about here?
    We don't know that, and it may well not be just about power. A conscious willingness to upset the balance, such as Sylvanas' willingness to unmake everything to address her own grievances, may be all you need to qualify. Perhaps the Arbiter will expound on that when and if she ever awakens in the course of the story.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It's quite possible, and probably even likely, that the Arbiter didn't consign Sylvanas to the Maw at Icecrown - but that her presence there was the result of external tampering (e.g. the Jailer bringing her to the Maw himself).
    Which is a assumption in itself, a likely one but she could have been sent to the maw by the arbiter. I wouldn't put it past blizz, considering their "consistent" writing.

    We don't know that, and it may well not be just about power. A conscious willingness to upset the balance, such as Sylvanas' willingness to unmake everything to address her own grievances, may be all you need to qualify. Perhaps the Arbiter will expound on that when and if she ever awakens in the course of the story.
    I am going by anecdotal evidence, as I have yet to see or hear of a mortal souls that could even remotely do what you say and so far there is absolutely zero indication for it.

  6. #166
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Which is a assumption in itself, a likely one but she could have been sent to the maw by the arbiter. I wouldn't put it past blizz, considering their "consistent" writing.
    If she was, it was likely because of the aforementioned potential - a potential she later realized in the story itself by joining the Jailer of her own free will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    I am going by anecdotal evidence, as I have yet to see or hear of a mortal souls that could even remotely do what you say and so far there is absolutely zero indication for it.
    Anecdotally speaking, the Warcraft universe is one were mortal beings do impossible things pretty much daily - overthrowing demigods, banishing literal gods, contending with incarnated forces of reality itself, etc. etc. I'm of the mind that Azerothians are simply a special breed of people, invested with unspecified yet exceedingly potent abilities to do almost anything they set their minds to.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    If she was, it was likely because of the aforementioned potential - a potential she later realized in the story itself by joining the Jailer of her own free will.
    That potential would have been there the first time she would have been judged, it is still the same soul.

    Anecdotally speaking, the Warcraft universe is one were mortal beings do impossible things pretty much daily - overthrowing demigods, banishing literal gods, contending with incarnated forces of reality itself, etc. etc. I'm of the minds that Azerothians are simply a special breed of people, invested with unspecified yet exceedingly potent abilities to do almost anything they set their minds to.
    And yet in the entirety of the shadowlands, we have no story of a mortal soul actually rising up in the shadowlands contesting with its powers, or any soul breaking free in revendreth.

    And one of the most powerful mortals on Azeroth, Arthas was little more than a ragdoll after his death.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-09-03 at 03:35 PM.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    She wouldn't at that time she did nothing that was maw worthy, she did not condemn masses to undeath, had not laid waste to entire kingdoms etc. heck she hadn't played around with any cosmic force at that point in time either.

    I am assuming that the Arbiter judges you based on your intent - 'the contents of your heart', in poetic terms - rather than your actions alone. Otherwise it'd be hard to determine who is a threat, who is redeemable, etc.

    So she just threw Sylvanas in the Maw because she saw Sylvanas is the kind of person to do, well, all this.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiraya View Post
    I am assuming that the Arbiter judges you based on your intent - 'the contents of your heart', in poetic terms - rather than your actions alone. Otherwise it'd be hard to determine who is a threat, who is redeemable, etc.

    So she just threw Sylvanas in the Maw because she saw Sylvanas is the kind of person to do, well, all this.
    Her intention was to die, there was nothing more to it, just end the torment now that she was done and it was still the same soul that was judged before and there she got to go to paradise.

    At the time she had done nothing that would have condemned her to the maw. Heck she could have ended up in Maldraxxus next as well, after all Vashj went there and she was rather fond of slaughtering innocents owning slaves and depriving people of water to exploit them later on.

  10. #170
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    That potential would have been there the first time she would have been judged, it is still the same soul.
    Perhaps not. Becoming a Banshee fundamentally changed what Sylvanas was, pretty much unequivocally. Given the state of Uther's soul perhaps part of Sylvanas is still in that peaceful and serene afterlife, blissfully unaware of the torments of her other part - we can't really say for sure. Either way, the Sylvanas that hypothetically arrived at Oribos after killing herself at Icecrown was not the Sylvanas who died in Quel'Thalas, and so it scans she would receive a new judgment based on the content of who she was now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    And yet in the entirety of the shadowlands, we have no story of a mortal soul actually rising up in the shadowlands contesting with its powers, or any soul breaking free in revendreth.
    Because, based on the rules we already know, such a soul would've been sent to the Maw directly. We also know of at least one soul with that power who is already effecting the Shadowlands in such a way: the Jailer himself.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Her intention was to die, there was nothing more to it

    We don't know if that would still have been the case once in the Shadowlands. Evidently the Arbiter did.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiraya View Post
    We don't know if that would still have been the case once in the Shadowlands. Evidently the Arbiter did.
    Evidently we don't know and if the arbiter did, then blizz fucked up royally and half the current cast should have gone to the maw, since they were just as rotten if not more, thus screwing over consistency.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Perhaps not. Becoming a Banshee fundamentally changed what Sylvanas was, pretty much unequivocally. Given the state of Uther's soul perhaps part of Sylvanas is still in that peaceful and serene afterlife, blissfully unaware of the torments of her other part - we can't really say for sure. Either way, the Sylvanas that hypothetically arrived at Oribos after killing herself at Icecrown was not the Sylvanas who died in Quel'Thalas, and so it scans she would receive a new judgment based on the content of who she was now.
    Again even then the maw makes no sense, people on the road to commit omnicide went to different planes.


    Because, based on the rules we already know, such a soul would've been sent to the Maw directly. We also know of at least one soul with that power who is already effecting the Shadowlands in such a way: the Jailer himself.
    Again there are souls right now chilling in the afterlife involved in omnicide on several occasions and thus being a danger to the shadowlands by default, it would mean starvation for the shadowlands in the end.

    Every whorshipper of the void or mortal agent of the Burning legion

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    half the current cast should have gone to the maw, since they were just as rotten if not more

    You don't know that. I don't find it difficult to believe that Garrosh and Kael'thas are more redeemable than Sylvanas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Again even then the maw makes no sense, people on the road to commit omnicide went to different planes
    The scale of your crimes is not necessarily the determining factor, it's if you are redeemable/still a threat to the Shadowlands.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiraya View Post
    You don't know that. I don't find it difficult to believe that Garrosh and Kael'thas are more redeemable than Sylvanas.
    Kael'thas wanted to exterminate the cosmos in the end and Garrosh too wanted to become a glorious conqueror to wipe out every other race and go on from there. Vashj too was a servant of the old gods, whose goal it is to consume the universe and went to Illidan because she was commanded to do so.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiraya View Post
    The scale of your crimes is not necessarily the determining factor, it's if you are redeemable/still a threat to the Shadowlands.
    If you are willing to burn the entire cosmos for more power you are a threat to the shadowlands.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Kael'thas wanted to exterminate the cosmos in the end and Garrosh too wanted to become a glorious conqueror to wipe out every other race and go on from there. Vashj too was a servant of the old gods, whose goal it is to consume the universe and went to Illidan because she was commanded to do so.

    If you are willing to burn the entire cosmos for more power you are a threat to the shadowlands.
    I feel like we're talking past each other here. Again, it's not how bad you are now that is the deciding factor. It's your capacity to be redeemed, and your potential to be a threat (which means both inclination and ability). You don't know all the information the Arbiter has when making these decisions, and I feel it is more logical to assume that she knows more than you do than to just assume it's bad writing. Not everything being revealed to the viewer is a standard writing concept not foreign to Blizzard.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiraya View Post
    I feel like we're talking past each other here. Again, it's not how bad you are now that is the deciding factor. It's your capacity to be redeemed, and your potential to be a threat (which means both inclination and ability). You don't know all the information the Arbiter has when making these decisions, and I feel it is more logical to assume that she knows more than you do than to just assume it's bad writing. Not everything being revealed to the viewer is a standard writing concept not foreign to Blizzard.
    The potential of Kael'thas is just as good as that of the screecher, same with Garrosh or Vashj all of them and no I don't give a construct a blind pass so long as I don't know anything about the parameters it works on, so by default I say the arbiter knows less than I do, because I have the outsiders perspective and know things it cannot know.

    Like Blizz writing flat storylines, going for the low hanging fruit concerning their narrative.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-09-03 at 04:04 PM.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    by default I say the arbiter knows less than I do, because I have the outsiders perspective and know things it cannot know.
    She's peering right into their souls. I don't think the stance you're taking is reasonable.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiraya View Post
    She's peering right into their souls. I don't think the stance you're taking is reasonable.
    I peer right into their heads, when I read a book.

    Also I know her creators and how sloppy they write.

    With that in mind, I think my stance is reasonable.

  19. #179
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Again even then the maw makes no sense, people on the road to commit omnicide went to different planes.
    Omnicide may not even be an issue so long as the Arbiter divines that the soul in question could be reformed, or deserves the chance at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Again there are souls right now chilling in the afterlife involved in omnicide on several occasions and thus being a danger to the shadowlands by default, it would mean starvation for the shadowlands in the end.

    Every whorshipper of the void or mortal agent of the Burning legion
    Apparently not, according to the rules already established. We have no way of knowing how many souls went directly to the Maw over the Arbiter's long career of judging and sentencing souls. Those in Revendreth, regardless of their crimes, were judge as eligible to reform if nothing else and were sent to the Venthyr accordingly to see that reformation attempted. If a soul arrived who capacity did include the destruction of all life in the universe (perhaps, say, Sargeras' soul) then it too would probably be sentenced to the Maw.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Omnicide may not even be an issue so long as the Arbiter divines that the soul in question could be reformed, or deserves the chance at least.
    Doesn't make sense, because omnicide would mean starvation for the shadowlands, thus meaning they are a threat.

    Apparently not, according to the rules already established. We have no way of knowing how many souls went directly to the Maw over the Arbiter's long career of judging and sentencing souls. Those in Revendreth, regardless of their crimes, were judge as eligible to reform if nothing else and were sent to the Venthyr accordingly to see that reformation attempted. If a soul arrived who capacity did include the destruction of all life in the universe (perhaps, say, Sargeras' soul) then it too would probably be sentenced to the Maw.
    Meaningless, if there is no consistency the whole system is pointless and I don't buy this whole whishy washy system for redemption thing the arbiter decides they go straight to hell.

    Either you do it thoroughly in revendreth, or don't do it all.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-09-03 at 04:15 PM.

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