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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    It doesn't make you completely unable to find groups, no, but it both reduces the total potential groups that are available to you, and it also simply makes assembling a suitable group for a dungeon much more difficult than it needs to be.
    People reject classes, they don't reject players based on their azerite traits.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    It doesn't make you completely unable to find groups, no, but it both reduces the total potential groups that are available to you, and it also simply makes assembling an suitable group for a dungeon much more difficult than it needs to be. You really shouldn't have to think about what covenant the players you are inviting are aligned to, but because being a certain covenant opens up skips and turns on buffs in certain dungeons, you will have to. It's a stupid design.
    Only being able to fill one role reduces the total potential groups that are available to you.
    Being certain classes or specs reduces the total potential groups that are available to you.
    Average ilvl reduces the total potential groups that are available to you.

    All of those things have substantially, exponentially more impact than covenant will.

    Acting like covenant is somehow going to break the whole system is absurd. It's just more chicken little nonsense.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Only being able to fill one role reduces the total potential groups that are available to you.
    Being certain classes or specs reduces the total potential groups that are available to you.
    Average ilvl reduces the total potential groups that are available to you.

    All of those things have substantially, exponentially more impact than covenant will.

    Acting like covenant is somehow going to break the whole system is absurd. It's just more chicken little nonsense.
    Covenants just add another layer to that, meaning there are now even more hoops to jump through than before. And it's for no real reason at all, there's no reason that covenant-specific dungeon buffs need to exist. They are just a case of you have them, or you don't have them and it feels bad.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Covenants just add another layer to that, meaning there are now even more hoops to jump through than before. And it's for no real reason at all, there's no reason that covenant-specific dungeon buffs need to exist. They are just a case of you have them, or you don't have them and it feels bad.
    But game developers can't, and shouldn't, make their game to accommodate primal and illogical fears.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    People reject classes, they don't reject players based on their azerite traits.
    If you had an azerite trait that allowed you to shroud through trash packs, people would absolutely be asking for that. And that's what the covenant specific dungeon features currently in Shadowlands do. It's not about the covenant class abilities, it's about the skips, checkpoints and buffs found inside dungeons that can only be used if you have someone from that specific covenant in your group.

    And this is the whole point, right.

    People don't typically ask you what talents or azerite traits you are using when you apply to M+ because it's a safe assumption that you are choosing the ones that are good for M+ if you are interested in M+. And that's a safe asssumption to make because you can change your talents in 3 seconds to the M+ suitable ones.

    But you won't be able to do that with covenants. So groups won't assume that you are Night Fae when you apply to a group for Mists of Tirna Scithe. But if they don't already have a Night Fae member in their group, they are going to ask specifically for that.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2020-09-04 at 07:29 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Covenants just add another layer to that, meaning there are now even more hoops to jump through than before. And it's for no real reason at all, there's no reason that covenant-specific dungeon buffs need to exist. They are just a case of you have them, or you don't have them and it feels bad.
    You can choose to feel bad about them or you can choose to feel good when you get to use yours. That's really up to you. I would suggest that if the way you approach any leisure activity is to whine and fold your arms every moment that you aren't in the spotlight, maybe find a hobby that doesn't cause so many unnecessary negative emotions for you. Maybe baseball? Of course, in that case, you could whine every time it isn't your turn at bat or every time the ball gets hit to a part of the field you aren't in.

    There aren't any "hoops" to jump through except the ones you are imposing on yourself. What's that saying that elitists love to use whenever someone says they want to play a certain way but other people won't let them? Oh yes: Make your own group, make your own guild.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  7. #107
    As a disc priest that's trying to find a 'good-for-all' covenant, with focus being on rated arena and mythic plus, i'm leaning towards Venthyr. Mind-games is a generally useful ability, the mobility and disorient with the teleport is universally handy, especially in pvp. I am heavily conflicted though, it's a very difficult decision for me but I hope that I can justify remaining Venthyr as it's the most aesthetically pleasing covenant to me too.

    What I am wondering though, does mind games benefit from shadow covenant and schism? Because if it does, that's some seriously high burst healing/damage. Would probably seal the deal for me. I'm actually pretty sure that this is the case.

    With it hitting for 300% of our SP, double that of a schism currently, 4% mana return and being potentially buffed by 65% by schism/shadow covenant and only a 45 second CD on top of the heal/damage absorb effect; I'm surprised i'm not seeing more priests talking about it. I haven't had access to the beta though, so only have word of mouth to go off, but this looks super good.
    Last edited by Zypherz; 2020-09-04 at 07:35 PM.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    If you had an azerite trait that allowed you to shroud through trash packs, people would absolutely be asking for that. And that's what the covenant specific dungeon features currently in Shadowlands do. It's not about the covenant class abilities, it's about the skips, checkpoints and buffs found inside dungeons that can only be used if you have someone from that specific covenant in your group.
    If you think you are gonna be banned from M+ for not being venthyr, I don't really have words for you just laughter.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You can choose to feel bad about them or you can choose to feel good when you get to use yours. That's really up to you.
    Or....or.....you could just ensure that you invite someone of that covenant to your group, so you never have to feel bad. Which is what will actually happen. Sorry this is so confusing for you.

    And you keep using the word "elitists" like this is something that only "elitists" will do.

    Sorry, but M+ dungeons are on a timer. It's not "elitist" in any way to want to maximise your chances of completing the dungeon within that timer. Which means inviting someone of the correct covenant so that you may use that dungeons covenant-specific buffs, which every dungeon in Shadowlands has.

    Just like it's not "elitist" to want to have someone in your group who can cast bloodlust. That's just good planning. It's not the player's fault that Blizzard chooses to only give certain spells to certain classes, and then designs dungeons and their timers around the assumption that you actually have those spells available to you.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2020-09-04 at 07:34 PM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    If you had an azerite trait that allowed you to shroud through trash packs, people would absolutely be asking for that. And that's what the covenant specific dungeon features currently in Shadowlands do. It's not about the covenant class abilities, it's about the skips, checkpoints and buffs found inside dungeons that can only be used if you have someone from that specific covenant in your group.

    And this is the whole point, right.

    People don't typically ask you what talents or azerite traits you are using when you apply to M+ because it's a safe assumption that you are choosing the ones that are good for M+ if you are interested in M+. And that's a safe asssumption to make because you can change your talents in 3 seconds to the M+ suitable ones.

    But you won't be able to do that with covenants. So groups won't assume that you are Night Fae when you apply to a group for Mists of Tirna Scithe. But if they don't already have a Night Fae member in their group, they are going to ask specifically for that.
    The important word is bolded, and why I think the concern of "not being able to get into groups because of covenant-specific dungeon buffs" is overblown. You only need one, and it could be any class or role that brings that, so it shouldn't be that hard of a requirement to fill. If they do happen to get to four people and nobody is that particular covenant, then sure, they'll be looking specifically for the last person to be a particular covenenant- but each covenant has their own 'buff' dungeons, so unless covenant balance is way off, most players are going to be fairly equally 'affected' by this.
    "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
    -H.L. Mencken, 1920

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    I think its still too early to discuss BiS covenant however the fact that players are looking for "BiS" of a game mechanic already shows its badly implemented and will cause problems. If it so happens as "BiS per class" then where will the diversity and uniqueness of classes and choice go?
    IMO, they need to separate covenants from powers. Choose whichever covenant you want to play as but then should be allowed to choose which covenant spell you play with.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    but each covenant has their own 'buff' dungeons, so unless covenant balance is way off, most players are going to be fairly equally 'affected' by this.
    The thing is though, these buff dungeons are not randomly allocated, they are always the same. So say if you're a Necrolord, you're always going to find it harder to find a group for non-Necrolord dungeons, since a good percentage of the groups in LFG are going to be looking for someone with the relevant covenant to fill out their group.

    So kinda sucks when your BIS trinket or whatever drops in a dungeon you have the wrong covenant for.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you pick your covenant based solely on the class ability, you are going to have a bad time.
    Even with the other options taken into consideration (with that i mean signature abilities too) it's still necrolord.

    it's just a fact that the ability is really strong for the 2 prominent specs of warlock.

    the fact that all the other class abilities are just so much weaker doesn't help either.

    Sure some of the other signature abilities of the other covenants may be better. but it just doesn't make up the difference imo.

    besides. i will level 4 warlocks anyway one covenant each. since i wont put trust into any promises blizz makes about not nerfing the best covenants too much etc. and to simply experience all covenants.
    Last edited by Lyrel8490; 2020-09-04 at 08:37 PM.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    The thing is though, these buff dungeons are not randomly allocated, they are always the same.
    Yes, I am aware. The buff dungeons correspond with the covenant's zone, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    So say if you're a Necrolord, you're always going to find it harder to find a group for non-Necrolord dungeons, since a good percentage of the groups in LFG are going to be looking for someone with the relevant covenant to fill out their group.
    I don't think it will be nearly as bad as you think it will be. Again: you only need one of the players to be of a covenant to activate the buff. There are four covenants and five players in a group. Putting together a group agnostic of covenant choice would give you slightly more than a 3/4 chance of already having a member of the needed covenant, so I don't think math agrees with "a good percentage of the groups" are going to be looking for that one covenant.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    So kinda sucks when your BIS trinket or whatever drops in a dungeon you have the wrong covenant for.
    Assuming reasonably BIS distribution and reasonably covenant balance among players, this is going to affect everyone roughly the same.
    "As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
    -H.L. Mencken, 1920

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Nope, I have seen their gear in BoD. They had literal garbage gear not even close to "bis". And it has been like this for good couple of years. You have clearly no clue as it's even mathematically impossible for them to get "near bis" in 2 resets. Even with gear funneling the best they can get is like half of the gear from heroic. Not to mention only like ~6 items from myhic.

    So please acting like you know if you are wrong.
    having half your gear be heroic entering into mythic is a rather large advantage... look I know im not going to convince you of anything but how you think it works and how it works are different enough for this to not make sense.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    The thing is though, these buff dungeons are not randomly allocated, they are always the same. So say if you're a Necrolord, you're always going to find it harder to find a group for non-Necrolord dungeons, since a good percentage of the groups in LFG are going to be looking for someone with the relevant covenant to fill out their group.

    So kinda sucks when your BIS trinket or whatever drops in a dungeon you have the wrong covenant for.
    This is really just not mathematically how it's going to work. You only need one person from the covenant. You are acting like the only person in any group that is in the bonus covenant is going to be the 5th person added to the group. That's not how this works.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    It will be interesting to see how the " BIS" turns out compared to what people think is the more interesting choice.

    It will also be interesting to see how much it really matters in the end. I can see where it could just end up being a fun thing, but I also see a situation where it could turn into a nightmare even for the most casual of players.
    Classes didnt turn into nighmare and so will not covenants.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    having half your gear be heroic entering into mythic is a rather large advantage... look I know im not going to convince you of anything but how you think it works and how it works are different enough for this to not make sense.
    Dude, have you seen their gear in BoD? half of them had 385 trinkets from M5, with average ilvl of 404 ilvl where raid dropped 415 and max was 425.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Dude, have you seen their gear in BoD? half of them had 385 trinkets from M5, with average ilvl of 404 ilvl where raid dropped 415 and max was 425.
    That trinket was bis if its the one im thinking of for most classes...

  20. #120
    This thread is worthless when they don't even tune numbers until extremely late in beta, potentially a few weeks before launch

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