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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you pick your covenant based solely on the class ability, you are going to have a bad time.
    Seems like the most reasonable way to pick a covenant to me. I don't give a shit about aesthetics or lore. My characters actual abilities are way more important to me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    So you admit that "I will get passed over for groups or benched" is a bullshit line?
    No, it's not bullshit at all. People will absolutely pick and choose players for groups based on what covenant they pick. Dungeon mechanics literally force them to.

    You don't care about that, that is fine. But that does not make it any less real.

    Also, I don't think people wanting to actually maximise their chances of achieving goals is "toxic". Bad game design is not their fault. It's not the fault of players that rogues were 100 times better than any other class in BFA M+, for example. That is Blizzard's fault.

    And that comparison is not accidental, picking the right covenant for the dungeon will literally allow you to skip trash packs, just as shroud does.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2020-09-04 at 06:11 PM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Seems like the most reasonable way to pick a covenant to me. I don't give a shit about aesthetics or lore. My characters actual abilities are way more important to me.
    If you care so much about that stuff, why would you pick on class ability alone and ignore the covenant ability, the soulbinds, and the exclusive legendaries?

    No, it's not bullshit at all. People will absolutely pick and choose players for groups based on what covenant they pick. Dungeon mechanics literally force them to.

    You don't care about that, that is fine. But that does not make it any less real.
    Which is it? Do people pick the optimal choice because they want to, or do they pick because otherwise they will get passed over? You realize these are contradictory, right?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Which is it? Do people pick the optimal choice because they want to, or do they pick because otherwise they will get passed over? You realize these are contradictory, right?
    I don't see how they are contradictory at all.

    People pick the optimal choice because they want to play their class to the best of their ability, and part of the reason to want to do that is so that they actually get invited to do content.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    I don't see how they are contradictory at all.

    People pick the optimal choice because they want to play their class to the best of their ability, and part of the reason to want to do that is so that they actually get invited to do content.
    "I want to pick X, but I can't because I'll get passed over"

    AND

    "I just want to pick the most powerful one"

    Those contradict each other because the first one implies a feeling of being cheated out of the choice you want, while the second indicates you don't care which you pick as long as its the best.

    So, which is it?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you care so much about that stuff, why would you pick on class ability alone and ignore the covenant ability, the soulbinds, and the exclusive legendaries?
    For some classes/specs, the class ability is absurdly powerful. See decimating bolt for Warlocks, or Deathborne for Arcane mages. For some other classes the base covenant ability would be more important, so that will define their choice. AFAIK legendaries are not covenant-specific.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    "I want to pick X, but I can't because I'll get passed over"

    AND

    "I just want to pick the most powerful one"

    Those contradict each other because the first one implies a feeling of being cheated out of the choice you want, while the second indicates you don't care which you pick as long as its the best.

    So, which is it?
    They don't contradict each other at all.

    If you decided to play a prot warrior and decided to wear all cloth armor, you'd be rubbish at your class and you'd get passed over/benched, for the reason that you're rubbish at your class.

    Likewise if there is a theoretically a covenant ability that makes your mage do 25% more DPS than the other choices, and you decided not to take it, you'd be intentionally gimping your character and you'd be likely to be benched as a result.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2020-09-04 at 06:24 PM.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    For some classes/specs, the class ability is absurdly powerful. See decimating bolt for Warlocks, or Deathborne for Arcane mages. For some other classes the base covenant ability would be more important, so that will define their choice. AFAIK legendaries are not covenant-specific.
    They said there will be covenant specific legendaries. Perhaps they changed their mind.

    I'm not quite sure what you are arguing with me about? If you want to min max, you should consider everything that comes with the covenant. I didn't say, ignore the class ability. I said consider everything. In some cases, the other stuff may matter, so its worth at least considering. Stop fishing for an argument.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    They don't contradict each other at all.

    If you decided to play a prot warrior and decided to wear all cloth armor, you'd be rubbish at your class and you'd get passed over/benched, for the reason that you're rubbish at your class.
    If you don't see the difference between someone who wants to pick Venthyr but picks Necrolords because they don't want to be benched, and someone who picks Necrolords because they don't care and just want the most powerful one, I don't really know what to tell you, aside from that you obviously are incapable of discussing this in good faith.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you don't see the difference between someone who wants to pick Venthyr but picks Necrolords because they don't want to be benched, and someone who picks Necrolords because they don't care and just want the most powerful one, I don't really know what to tell you, aside from that you obviously are incapable of discussing this in good faith.
    Wanting to pick the most powerful choice because you want to be good at your class because you don't want to be benched is not contradictory.

    Note you didn't just say they are "different", you said they are contradictory. Those 2 words are not synonyms.

  8. #88
    I'm gonna straight up go fotm dps as a new main right before launch and at that time I will also check on which covenant is best with my fotm dps.

    I won't be able to decide that until the xpak launches though. Probably that day.

  9. #89
    For bm - Necrolord really but kyrian is an option. the kyrian ability loses a lot of lustre if your target moves and later in the expansion when you get a lot of crit from secondaries. The chakram will hit 7 times on one target for a LOT of damage. the potion you get from kyrian is it's own cd separate from hs and health pots. as an extremely mobile ranged dps you also have easier opportunities to channel that necrolord shield for unavoidable raidwise damage.
    for mm - venthyr or necrolord. due to MM scaling their own shots at a higher rate, they get a LOT more from the venthyr dot and kill shot proc than the other specs and the dot should do more over a minute than chakrams will since it's 3 applications vs. 1 and as the duration is shorter than the cooldown you don't really need a WA to track it.
    for survival - reroll bm or mm

    as for the discussion about being passed over - if you are not playing one of the classes that provides one of those 5% raidwide buffs or bloodlust, expect that to be a reality regardless of your covenant choice.
    Last edited by Dixa; 2020-09-04 at 06:46 PM.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Wanting to pick the most powerful choice because you want to be good at your class because you don't want to be benched is not contradictory.

    Note you didn't just say they are "different", you said they are contradictory. Those 2 words are not synonyms.
    "I want Venthyr but feel like I'm not allowed to pick them"

    "I don't care which covenant I pick as long as its the best"

    These are contradictory. They are mutually exclusive.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Dixa View Post
    as for the discussion about being passed over - if you are not playing one of the classes that provides one of those 5% raidwide buffs or bloodlust, expect that to be a reality regardless of your covenant choice.
    Being passed over in favor of a FOTM spec/class has always been a reality in WoW.

    But now you've got an additional layer of choice that could cause that too - your covenant choice.

    It wouldn't be so bad if covenants didn't literally dictate the available paths in M+, that's the real offender here.

    Before you'd see ads in group finder such as "LF1M ranged, bloodlust class"
    Now you're going to see "LF1M ranged, bloodlust, Kyrian" etc.

    The second one is going to be caused exclusively by the covenant-specific dungeon buffs/checkpoints which are just an incredibly stupid idea, much like class buffs are.

    At least with the class buffs you could argue that they exist as an insurance against class balance issues (e.g. it means raids will always bring at least 1 warrior, even if warriors are awful), but I can't see any real justification for the existence of covenant-specific dungeon buffs. They seem to exist only to make people feel bad and to make it harder to assemble groups.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2020-09-04 at 07:08 PM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Being passed over in favor of a FOTM spec/class has always been a reality in WoW.

    But now you've got an additional layer of choice that could cause that too - your covenant choice.

    It wouldn't be so bad if covenants didn't literally dictate the available paths in M+, that's the real offender here.

    Before you'd see ads in group finder such as "LF1M ranged, bloodlust class"
    Now you're going to see "LF1M ranged, bloodlust, Kyrian".
    Seeing that doesn't make you unable to find groups.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Seeing that doesn't make you unable to find groups.
    It doesn't make you completely unable to find groups, no, but it both reduces the total potential groups that are available to you, and it also simply makes assembling a suitable group for a dungeon much more difficult than it needs to be. You really shouldn't have to think about what covenant the players you are inviting are aligned to, but because being a certain covenant opens up skips, provides more checkpoints, and turns on buffs in certain dungeons, you will have to. And that's even assuming all the covenant abilities are perfectly balanced. It's a stupid design.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    It doesn't make you completely unable to find groups, no, but it both reduces the total potential groups that are available to you, and it also simply makes assembling a suitable group for a dungeon much more difficult than it needs to be.
    People reject classes, they don't reject players based on their azerite traits.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    It doesn't make you completely unable to find groups, no, but it both reduces the total potential groups that are available to you, and it also simply makes assembling an suitable group for a dungeon much more difficult than it needs to be. You really shouldn't have to think about what covenant the players you are inviting are aligned to, but because being a certain covenant opens up skips and turns on buffs in certain dungeons, you will have to. It's a stupid design.
    Only being able to fill one role reduces the total potential groups that are available to you.
    Being certain classes or specs reduces the total potential groups that are available to you.
    Average ilvl reduces the total potential groups that are available to you.

    All of those things have substantially, exponentially more impact than covenant will.

    Acting like covenant is somehow going to break the whole system is absurd. It's just more chicken little nonsense.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Only being able to fill one role reduces the total potential groups that are available to you.
    Being certain classes or specs reduces the total potential groups that are available to you.
    Average ilvl reduces the total potential groups that are available to you.

    All of those things have substantially, exponentially more impact than covenant will.

    Acting like covenant is somehow going to break the whole system is absurd. It's just more chicken little nonsense.
    Covenants just add another layer to that, meaning there are now even more hoops to jump through than before. And it's for no real reason at all, there's no reason that covenant-specific dungeon buffs need to exist. They are just a case of you have them, or you don't have them and it feels bad.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Covenants just add another layer to that, meaning there are now even more hoops to jump through than before. And it's for no real reason at all, there's no reason that covenant-specific dungeon buffs need to exist. They are just a case of you have them, or you don't have them and it feels bad.
    But game developers can't, and shouldn't, make their game to accommodate primal and illogical fears.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    People reject classes, they don't reject players based on their azerite traits.
    If you had an azerite trait that allowed you to shroud through trash packs, people would absolutely be asking for that. And that's what the covenant specific dungeon features currently in Shadowlands do. It's not about the covenant class abilities, it's about the skips, checkpoints and buffs found inside dungeons that can only be used if you have someone from that specific covenant in your group.

    And this is the whole point, right.

    People don't typically ask you what talents or azerite traits you are using when you apply to M+ because it's a safe assumption that you are choosing the ones that are good for M+ if you are interested in M+. And that's a safe asssumption to make because you can change your talents in 3 seconds to the M+ suitable ones.

    But you won't be able to do that with covenants. So groups won't assume that you are Night Fae when you apply to a group for Mists of Tirna Scithe. But if they don't already have a Night Fae member in their group, they are going to ask specifically for that.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2020-09-04 at 07:29 PM.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Covenants just add another layer to that, meaning there are now even more hoops to jump through than before. And it's for no real reason at all, there's no reason that covenant-specific dungeon buffs need to exist. They are just a case of you have them, or you don't have them and it feels bad.
    You can choose to feel bad about them or you can choose to feel good when you get to use yours. That's really up to you. I would suggest that if the way you approach any leisure activity is to whine and fold your arms every moment that you aren't in the spotlight, maybe find a hobby that doesn't cause so many unnecessary negative emotions for you. Maybe baseball? Of course, in that case, you could whine every time it isn't your turn at bat or every time the ball gets hit to a part of the field you aren't in.

    There aren't any "hoops" to jump through except the ones you are imposing on yourself. What's that saying that elitists love to use whenever someone says they want to play a certain way but other people won't let them? Oh yes: Make your own group, make your own guild.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  20. #100
    As a disc priest that's trying to find a 'good-for-all' covenant, with focus being on rated arena and mythic plus, i'm leaning towards Venthyr. Mind-games is a generally useful ability, the mobility and disorient with the teleport is universally handy, especially in pvp. I am heavily conflicted though, it's a very difficult decision for me but I hope that I can justify remaining Venthyr as it's the most aesthetically pleasing covenant to me too.

    What I am wondering though, does mind games benefit from shadow covenant and schism? Because if it does, that's some seriously high burst healing/damage. Would probably seal the deal for me. I'm actually pretty sure that this is the case.

    With it hitting for 300% of our SP, double that of a schism currently, 4% mana return and being potentially buffed by 65% by schism/shadow covenant and only a 45 second CD on top of the heal/damage absorb effect; I'm surprised i'm not seeing more priests talking about it. I haven't had access to the beta though, so only have word of mouth to go off, but this looks super good.
    Last edited by DechCJC; 2020-09-04 at 07:35 PM.

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