PVP: gearing and other pitfalls.

[confety]

The problem is that you dont get the same gear with the same effort.
Doing a +8 key its not the same that winning a 1800 arena match, and they reward the same ilvl.
Pve have inflated the ilvl too much.
While its true that casual pvp is bgs and casual pve is world quests, the next step in each one is totally not the same in terms of difficulty
Pve gets to normal/heroic and until +10 keys without much of a difficulty, pvp gets into ranked arenas.
The game needs bg gear to be in pvp environments at least as effective as heroic raid gear should be, with conquest being as mythic, and elite glad being better than the rest.
SHL totally needs a pvp stat or a pvp gear set bonus that works only against enemy players like damage reduction/inflicted.

[orsraunia]

Agreed. I only have one objection. High End PvP gear shouldn't be tied to a rating, because then you have lower skilled people going against higher skilled people with way better gear. So the power gap widens and people get kind of disincentified to keep PvPing and improving...

Instead of that, I believe it's better if you make all PvP gear available to people who put in enough effort PvPing and you give cosmetic, etc rewards to high rating PvPers. Skill, knowledge and good teamwork will still make the difference, so no harm done.

Additionally, all BiS PvP gear should come from PvP imo. They don't have to be best by far, but still best or at least equal for PvP with same ilvl PvE gear. But really equal, not blizzard equal. PvE gear should still be relevant for PvP, but not BiS. A PvEr with "current content" ilvl gear should be relevant enough in PvP to be able to progress and get PvP gear, not just get farmed until he/she has PvP gear. Still, because in this way I am suggesting high end PvP gear are somewhat easier to obtain than high end PvE gear, they shouldn't be as good for PvE, but significantly worse than the equivalent ilvl PvE gear. You can do this with a PvP stat taking enough of the item budget, like resilience. It's not that hard to achieve.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize how these things work, Bliz should go with what makes sense and not over complicate things with theoretical bullshit ideas that just don't work in practice. Those that think that forcing PvErs PvP and PvPers PvE is a good idea are just clueless or just spewing out theories with little to no practical application. You can't force people do stuff they don't like or enjoy, not in the long run, they'll just get frustrated and quit that game mode and be one step close to quitting the game...

And to put it into perspective, this comes from a player who enjoys both PvE and PvP. Still, it makes zero sense to have to do PvP to be optimal in PvE or the other way around. It makes zero sense, like it made zero sense having items with resilience drop in Serpentshrine Cavern back in the day (TBC)... It's fine doing some PvP to get an item for a slot you'd been unlucky with in PvE, but it shouldn't be BiS, like PvE gear shouldn't be BiS for PvP.

And before I get shit the likes of "but it's world of warcraft, it's not world of PvE or world of PvE", let me clarify that when I say PvPer I mean one who plays the game mostly for PvP and when I say PvEr I mean one who plays the game mostly for PvE, those two kinds of players are not alien one to another, but they do have significantly different priorities and ways of enjoying the game.

[Zhorek]

What if you could only get versatility gear from PVP? Could it be a middle ground solution?

[The Butt Witch]

Agreed. I only have one objection. High End PvP gear shouldn't be tied to a rating, because then you have lower skilled people going against higher skilled people with way better gear. So the power gap widens and people get kind of disincentified to keep PvPing and improving...

No because then people will once again be forced into PVE because PVE is easier to both get into as well as obtain rewards, compared to PVP. So average rated and average-high rated players will get pissed that PVP gear is trash, and then they will do PVE and get pissed because that they can't do PVP for gear, and no one will be happy.

PVP gear progression should be structured factoring in the difficulty of PVE content.
PVP gear should never be worse than PVE gear obtained from proportionally difficult content.

Blue (craftable) PVP gear = LFR drops
Purple PVP gear obtainable with Honor = normal raid drops
Purple PVP gear obtainable with Conquest = heroic raid drops
High rated PVP gear accessible only to +2k = mythic raid drops

[Nuciek]

Agreed. I only have one objection. High End PvP gear shouldn't be tied to a rating, because then you have lower skilled people going against higher skilled people with way better gear. So the power gap widens and people get kind of disincentified to keep PvPing and improving...

I don't agree with that. Giving all the gear to anyone, without gating it somehow behind skill would force PvE players to participate in PvP to get easy hgih end gear (if there is not clear benefit in PvE gear over PvP) but would also feel less rewarding for those that earned higher rating. With current system that is in beta we have a very good chance at gating the gear behind certain rating. Let's say all conquest gear is available to anyone but certain upgrade levels are locked behind rating.

Of course there is a problem right now with rating requirements being to high. We have around 8k characters sitting at 2400+ rating and around 860k (!!!) characters at 1500+ rio score, we also have AT LEAST 47320 characters (2366 guilds x 20 characters in a group) at 12/12 Mythic Ny'alotha, not counting any other players in those guilds, alts or guilds that have between 1-11/12 Ny'alotha. All those things reward the same gear (with last bosses in raid giving even higher ilvl than the rest). That shows us a big problem in judging the difficulty level in each content. Of course M+ is the most popular but the gap is just insane. In my opinion anyone 2k+/Duelist should have access to the best PvP gear (so in bfa that would be increasing rewards level on each tier by one), while Gladiator's have their mounts (and title) as a reward.

[Warning]

I've updated the OP with some thoughts on Blizzards most recent proposed solution to the gearing problem (17 September).

[orsraunia]

No because then people will once again be forced into PVE because PVE is easier to both get into as well as obtain rewards, compared to PVP. So average rated and average-high rated players will get pissed that PVP gear is trash, and then they will do PVE and get pissed because that they can't do PVP for gear, and no one will be happy.

What you say makes not sense. In my original post I am saying:
1. PvP gear, even high end, should be available to all PvPers no matter the rating. Higher rating = faster progress towards getting fully geared, lower rating = needs more effort. But all should be able to reach the same ilvl of PvP gear, in the long run.
2. High-end PvP gear should be better than high-end PvE gear for PvP.

In this way, all PvPers can get their gear to have fun PvPing, more skilled ones faster, less skilled ones slower. If you make it that you need a certain high rating for high end PvP gear, then in BGs you'll end up having lower skilled players going against higher skilled players with way better gear. The gap becomes so big in BGs, it's not fun for the lower skilled players and they'll eventually stop PvPing, which is bad for both kinds of players and just bad for the PvP scene. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. Now, one can have an opinion that it's a good thing to get carried by gear, even when you made a bad play, another that is a bad thing, all opinions are respected. But the fact remains. If high end PvP gear are limited by a rating, you'll have way bigger power gaps in BGs, which ultimately makes skill and teamwork matter less.

I don't agree with that. Giving all the gear to anyone, without gating it somehow behind skill would force PvE players to participate in PvP to get easy hgih end gear (if there is not clear benefit in PvE gear over PvP) but would also feel less rewarding for those that earned higher rating. With current system that is in beta we have a very good chance at gating the gear behind certain rating. Let's say all conquest gear is available to anyone but certain upgrade levels are locked behind rating.

In my original post I am clearly stating that PvP gear should be worse than same ilvl PvE gear for PvE content. Which you can easily make with resilience or even with the new system they are suggesting (versatility + increased vers effect through PvP set bonus). So, no PvEr will be forced to PvP, because PvP gear will not be even close to being optimal for PvE. About feeling rewarded for your high rating... Your reward for high rating will be getting fully geared faster, having to put less effort for the same gear the rest can get later, like with PvE raid nerfs, Sunwell nerf, Icecrown Citadel player buff, etc. Lower skilled/less organized guilds got the same gear and got to experience all the bosses, but later and after they had put in more effort...

If you make it that for high end gear one needs a certain rating, you just block some from ever getting those gear, no matter how much they play. Such a thing is bad design for a game like WoW. If you exclude certain lower rating players from ever having access to the same ilvl PvP gear more skilled/organized players have, you end up with a really big gap between player power in BGs. And although it's kind of fun to decimate lower geared people in BGs, it's not really fun for them in the long run. Additionally, Being carried by ilvl even in situations you made a bad play is good for none, nor the PvP scene in general. Finally, in this way you are also ending their sense of progression way sooner, because they are either not skilled enough, nor knowledgeable enough or they just can't be bothered to find a stable team to reach that required rating, and they'll discover that pretty soon. So, they stop playing way sooner that they would have, if they had a way to "grind" their way to those gear.

And to put this into perspective, this is coming from someone who doesn't consider himself a top end PvP player, nor someone who playes PvP in a hardcore way, but during my many years of gaming, in a lot of different games, I've experienced what I am talking about and I've experienced things from both sides of the fence. I know how fun it is to be carried over by gear, winning 1vs3 rather easy, but I also know that this stops being fun rather fast and it's not "healthy" in the long run. I also know how disheartening it feels when you lose to other people's gear, even when they don't play well or smart in that particular instance.

[Nuciek]

In my original post I am clearly stating that PvP gear should be worse than same ilvl PvE gear for PvE content. Which you can easily make with resilience or even with the new system they are suggesting (versatility + increased vers effect through PvP set bonus). So, no PvEr will be forced to PvP. About feeling rewarded for your high rating... Your reward for high rating will be getting fully geared faster, having to put less effort for the same gear the rest can get later, like with PvE raid nerfs, Sunwell nerf, Icecrown Citadel player buff, etc. Lower skilled/less organized skills got the same gear, but later...

If you exclude certain lower rating players from accessing the same ilvl PvP gear, you end up with a really big gap between player power in BGs. And although it's kind of fun to decimate lower geared people in BGs, it's not really fun for them in the long run. Being carried by ilvl even in situations you made a bad play is good for none, nor the PvP scene.

I disagree again. We had some upgrades locked behind rating in the past and I think it's a good thing. I agree that it shouldn't be hard, and most of the gear should be non-rated but some of it should stay locked behind rating. For example you could get LFR gear quickly with honor (with possibility to upgrade it to normal with honor), Normal with conquest without rating, Heroic unlocked on Combatant, Mythic on Rival/Duelist. I think there should be some gear progression attached to the rating too.

Now it might sound a bit selfish, but I do like to have (earned) gear advantage in random battlegrounds. Rated is where I want to compete seriously, unrated is where I want to get in and have fun. And I don't think someone who spends their life just doing random bgs should have the same gear than someone who does rated content, just like someone who farms LFR shouldn't have the same gear that drops in heroic or mythic raid. Also there are rated battlegrounds for those that prefer BG to arena and they should also provide the same PvP gear.

[orsraunia]

I disagree again. We had some upgrades locked behind rating in the past and I think it's a good thing. I agree that it shouldn't be hard, and most of the gear should be non-rated but some of it should stay locked behind rating. For example you could get LFR gear quickly with honor (with possibility to upgrade it to normal with honor), Normal with conquest without rating, Heroic unlocked on Combatant, Mythic on Rival/Duelist. I think there should be some gear progression attached to the rating too.

Now it might sound a bit selfish, but I do like to have (earned) gear advantage in random battlegrounds. Rated is where I want to compete seriously, unrated is where I want to get in and have fun. And I don't think someone who spends their life just doing random bgs should have the same gear than someone who does rated content, just like someone who farms LFR shouldn't have the same gear that drops in heroic or mythic raid. Also there are rated battlegrounds for those that prefer BG to arena and they should also provide the same PvP gear.

First of all, it goes without saying that not all of us have to agree with each other. As long as the discussion remains constructive, it can help people form their own opinions on the subjects we are clearly approaching from different angles.

PvE is structured differently. You have LFR-normal-heroic-mythic. The average player needs gear from normal to do heroic, heroic gear to do mythic. Additionally, if you had mythic gear dropping from heroic, mythic mode would become invalid for the skilled players, because it would be too easy. The same doesn't stand for PvP. You don't need better gear to compete on a higher rating level in PvP and if others had the same gear with you, you'd still be able to experience that higher rated content in a meaningful and enjoy-full way. So, since PvE content progression works completely different than PvP one, I don't think that we need the same kind of gear progression system, not even a similar one. As long as they manage to completely separate PvE gear from PvP gear, it's fine. Like PvP gear being the best for PvP and PvE gear being the best for PvE.

To make it more obvious, a less skilled raid group can keep trying and keep improving vs a raid boss and they'll get it down eventually, they'll keep improving, they'll keep doing better. They'll have a sense of progression, this will keep them satisfied and motivated to keep trying. It's not the same with PvP. Some will never reach that rating threshold, for various reasons, maybe they lack the skill or organization or knowledge or can't have stable gaming schedule because of real life and can't remain part of a team, etc. They'll realize this soon enough and stop playing after a while, way sooner than if they had a chance to get there, later than more skilled people, but at the same gear level. And ofc, the big power gap (worse gear, less skill) will make them stop playing way sooner, because they will be getting stomped way more often.

I don't consider what you are proposing as selfish. High skill and effort justifies one wanting a gear advantage over others, but imo it hurts the PvP scene in the long run. So, If I could choose, I would choose limiting your gear advantage, instead of limiting less skilled people's gearing, in order to keep more people interested in PvP, playing PvP and having fun. It might displease you (and everyone like you) a bit, but it wouldn't make a big difference for you in the long run. You'd still feel satisfied with your performance and the result when going vs less skilled/organized players/teams. The difference will be there, it will just be smaller, because all will have the same gearing potential.

It's like PvE vendors introduced with Sunwell. A lot of my guildies were dissatisfied because we had to put a lot of effort for our gear, farming Black Temple for many months... to be ready for when Sunwell hit. I really didn't mind. It made competing for server firsts harder, but it's no big deal in the long run. If those vendors didn't exist, some guilds would have to keep farming BT for months to get the gear needed to pass the gear check Brutallus was. Would that be fun? No. So, imo it's better to displease some in order to make the game fun for A LOT more. And because it's something that affects you, but not directly, it's not that big of a deal. It's like buffing X class, when you play Y. Maybe it displeases you, but not as much as if your class got nerfed...

Finally, it's understandable to want to relax doing some unrated BGs, after your main activity. I get that. We were doing that in TBC. After the raid, we'd join as a group and decimate everyone in the BG, carried by top gear. I get it that it's fun being able to do stuff you wouldn't be able to do if all had the same level of gear, but it's not healthy for the game in the long run, if big gaps exist. Finally, it should also be understandable that for some people unrated PvP content is their main activity, because they can't participate in rated PvP for various legit reasons. I believe it's perfectly fine wanting to have a more enjoyable experience in their main activity and same gearing potential, even if they get there significantly slower. It's PvP we are talking about after all, which is/should be more skill/teamwork oriented and less about gear advantages. Just my opinion ofc.

Anyway, I said all I had to say and I believe I've explained my views adequately. Obviously they are my views and just that. Now, I'll sit back and relax, looking forward to hearing other people's opinions, hoping for the best for SL for PvP. At least hoping to avoid having to do much PvE in order to enjoy PvP, because I won't...

[Nuciek]

First of all, it goes without saying that not all of us have to agree with each other. As long as the discussion remains constructive, it can help people form their own opinions on the subjects we are clearly approaching from different angles.

PvE is structured differently. You have LFR-normal-heroic-mythic. The average player needs gear from normal to do heroic, heroic gear to do mythic. Additionally, if you had mythic gear dropping from heroic, mythic mode would become invalid for the skilled players, because it would be too easy. The same doesn't stand for PvP. You don't need better gear to compete on a higher rating level in PvP and if others had the same gear with you, you'd still be able to experience that higher rated content in a meaningful and enjoy-full way. So, since PvE content progression works completely different than PvP one, I don't think that we need the same kind of gear progression system, not even a similar one. As long as they manage to completely separate PvE gear from PvP gear, it's fine. Like PvP gear being the best for PvP and PvE gear being the best for PvE.

To make it more obvious, a less skilled raid group can keep trying and keep improving vs a raid boss and they'll get it down eventually, they'll keep improving, they'll keep doing better. They'll have a sense of progression, this will keep them satisfied and motivated to keep trying. It's not the same with PvP. Some will never reach that rating threshold, for various reasons, maybe they lack the skill or organization or knowledge or can't have stable gaming schedule because of real life and can't remain part of a team, etc. They'll realize this soon enough and stop playing after a while, way sooner than if they had a chance to get there, later than more skilled people, but at the same gear level. And ofc, the big power gap (worse gear, less skill) will make them stop playing way sooner, because they will be getting stomped way more often.

I don't consider what you are proposing as selfish. High skill and effort justifies one wanting a gear advantage over others, but imo it hurts the PvP scene in the long run. So, If I could choose, I would choose limiting your gear advantage, instead of limiting less skilled people's gearing, in order to keep more people interested in PvP, playing PvP and having fun. It might displease you (and everyone like you) a bit, but it wouldn't make a big difference for you in the long run. You'd still feel satisfied with your performance and the result when going vs less skilled/organized players/teams. The difference will be there, it will just be smaller, because all will have the same gearing potential.

It's like PvE vendors introduced with Sunwell. A lot of my guildies were dissatisfied because we had to put a lot of effort for our gear, farming Black Temple for many months... to be ready for when Sunwell hit. I really didn't mind. It made competing for server firsts harder, but it's no big deal in the long run. If those vendors didn't exist, some guilds would have to keep farming BT for months to get the gear needed to pass the gear check Brutallus was. Would that be fun? No. So, imo it's better to displease some in order to make the game fun for A LOT more. And because it's something that affects you, but not directly, it's not that big of a deal. It's like buffing X class, when you play Y. Maybe it displeases you, but not as much as if your class got nerfed...

Finally, it's understandable to want to relax doing some unrated BGs, after your main activity. I get that. We were doing that in TBC. After the raid, we'd join as a group and decimate everyone in the BG, carried by top gear. I get it that it's fun being able to do stuff you wouldn't be able to do if all had the same level of gear, but it's not healthy for the game in the long run, if big gaps exist. Finally, it should also be understandable that for some people unrated PvP content is their main activity, because of various legit reasons. So it makes sense to want a more enjoyable experience in their main activity.

I mostly agree with you, but I still think some gear should be locked behind rating, because a lot of people actually play for the gear and that would give them incentive to try and reach higher rating. As I mentioned I think locking best gear behind 2400 rating is absurd but some gear tiers would motivate an average player to try getting it. Having lower requirements would also mean those that do only unrated could try to get it, right now they know they won't get it without really commiting themselves hardcore. That would mean that there are actually more players participating in the PvP scene.

My idea was simplified and probably the differences in gear level I proposed are too big so let me elaborate. I'm also taking into account the fact that Blizzard will not seperate PvE and PvP gear (not this expansion) and versatility as main secondary + trinkets bonus is probably all that we will get right now.

PvE ilvl right now:
normal dungeon - 158
heroic dungeon - 170
M0 - 183
LFR - 187
Normal - 200
Heroic - 213
Mythic - 226

PvP honor gear right now:
158 - 190 (full upgrades)

My idea for PvP gear:
Honor gear - 158 (for a really low honor) upgraded up to 200 with honor.
Conquest gear - 200 (for low conquest points) with no rating, upgraded up to 213 with no rating requirements.
Next upgrades locked behind rating: 217 (1400), 220 (1600), 223 (1800), 226 (2100).

With this you would only have a 1 tier (13 ilvl) difference between unrated and Duelist player, with everyone else between those two. In BFA that difference is like 30 ilvl if you don't play rated or PvE at all? Also with increments of only 3 ilvl per rated bracket it wouldn't make those lower at a significant gear disadvantage. I mean, anyone can reach 1400 if they just try and with that you're only 9ilvl below BiS gear, and you mostly compete with people wearing 220 if you want to get into 1600 bracket.

There's also one issue that giving away gear with no rating won't fix in the case of "geared players stomping over non-geared". A lot of players that are being stomped over in BGs are not unrated-only players that played for whole season and didn't had a chance at gear, but fresh characters that are just getting their first pieces of gear. It's not a problem for them that best gear is behind rating because they don't have any gear at all, and no conquest points to buy better gear anyway. That's why I think there should be a starter honor gear that is very quick to acquire, in like couple hours of playing, and than people can progress from that.

The fact that Blizzard won't separate gear also means that anyone joining from PvE won't be run over by a PvP player. Yes, versa and bonus might give an advantage but not as big as resilience did. Those requirements would mean that if there's a PvE player that might want a shot at gear up to 217, he might try and join PvP but he won't be forced, because he can't grind it and because top gear is locked behind rating that an average dragonslayer won't reach anyway if he's not interested in PvP at all.

Now I agree that if they separated gear completely we could change the PvP gearing system, but we know that Blizz won't do that now and my example is based around gear being usable in all content like it was in BfA. Fresh players will always be at disadvantage in this system, but I think it's not a problem as long as they see that they can acquire that gear and get competitive soon. That also gives a sense of progress - you're "green" when you first join and everyone kills you, but you buy 1-2 pieces and you feel the difference, each item that you get makes you stronger. You actually feel that when you play you grow stronger and you can be the one that carries the BG when you finish your gear.

[orsraunia]

As you said, 1400 is easy on most cases, even with a pick up partner. 1600 shouldn't be too hard either, would just take some more effort. But I am talking about ratings as I experienced them in WotLK, no idea about nowadays. So if the difference in power between 1600 and top gear is not great, it's ok I guess.

In WotLK, PvP was a secondary activity for me. Me and a friend got 1900ish before stopping, which wasn't easy for our level of skill. We had to take it seriously enough, improve our knowledge of other classes/combos and practice. How do I counter X, how do I counter Y, what do we do when he casts Z, etc... Back then, weapons were gated behind a 1800 raiting, so there was a significant gap in power between 1799 and 1800... Still, getting those weapons was an incentive, so I can see the merit in what you are saying. After we got to 1800, we played a few more games and called it quits. Kept on PvPing in BGs though, on our spare time.

Those weapons were an added incentive that kept us trying to improve and pass that 1800 mark. Still, I know enough friends of mine that never did, but quitted when they saw that for enough time they were just moving between 1600-1700ish... That gave them no sense of progression, so they just played BGs.

So yeah, I can see the merit in having tangible rewards for higher rating, but there shouldn't be a big difference. Not like it was in WotLK for example... What you are suggesting about ratings and ilvls sounds ok. Ofc, you can have titles, cosmetic, etc rewards that don't increase player power.