How would you fix Baine and others?

[Raisei]

Meh, I'd take Maggie over Anduin's doormat any day of the week. Alternatively, the story should give Baine a huge slap in the face, so that he realises that while peace may be a noble aspiration, the millenia-old adage of si vis pacem, para bellum is still applicable.

I agree, we really should punish him for saving your faction from being fed to the hungering darkness. Considering how complete and utterly ungrateful you folks are for being alive, I'd say it was a mistake.

Alas, if you wish to follow the will of the enemies of the resistance you can do that very easily! Just delete your characters, Sylvanas will be ever so grateful!

[Soon-TM]

I agree, we really should punish him for saving your faction from being fed to the hungering darkness. Considering how complete and utterly ungrateful you folks are for being alive, I'd say it was a mistake.

Alas, if you wish to follow the will of the enemies of the resistance you can do that very easily! Just delete your characters, Sylvanas will be ever so grateful!

Dude, stop with that Sylvanas obsession. It makes you look weird

[Raisei]

Dude, stop with that Sylvanas obsession. It makes you look weird

Should I point out how utterly obsessed your entire faction is with Baine as the face of everything they hate about the new Horde? Glasshouse. Stones.

[Syegfryed]

Garrosh he didn't ask, because Baine believed he was complicit in the whole thing, he assumed the trolls would be under the thumb of the orcs , the forsaken were under Kor'kron supervision and he argued Silvermoon was too far away.

when you trust more on the enemy than your own faction is how you know the character went bad, that was his first mistake, that just keep going further about he working more with the enemy

[Beloren]

Title says it all, and before we get inundated with "Lol Kill them or write them out of the story entirely", this thread is for actual ideas on what Blizz could do to make you think "Yeah this character is okay" even if you don't fall in love with them cause of how much baggage they have.

Voss, Baine, Thrall, etc... lots of characters on the Horde atm are controversial to say the least.

How could Blizz improve the Horde's gutted roster?

I think the problem is not the characters bu t the focus on character story telling for the mmo - race and zone story telling first his style of mmo much better, than big story themes.

Problem is blizzard doesn't develop Warcraft single player games or tv series/stories or even new RTS that can actual continue a decent character driven story, so they end up not getting the depth and nuance they need to come across as genuine and relevant. this is all made worse by them over reacting to fan reactions rather than seeing through their vision .

Its's messed up.
The mmo should focus on telling the stories of the races and their lives, their direction and this weaves into the bigger storyline plot that is going on in the single player game or rpg, which the player still plays a part off by completing objectives in the dungeons and raids that tie into that storyline, occasionally coming across the main characters , but those main characters don't dominate the MMORPG quests and it's stories, they can play a role, as some of them a leaders and leaders of races.

that's how it should go. But they're making the mmo try to do everything and not willing to make changes for the story or direct the development necessary to tell great stories like SWTOR, Secret world and FFXIV do.

[Satelliteyears0o]

By Lightforging them of course.

[Skytotem]

I think the problem is not the characters bu t the focus on character story telling for the mmo - race and zone story telling first his style of mmo much better, than big story themes.

But they're making the mmo try to do everything and not willing to make changes for the story or direct the development necessary to tell great stories like SWTOR, Secret world and FFXIV do.

You say the problem is that it's an MMO but that FFXIV and others do the job well, so can you clarify on what changes you think they should make?

Personally I've never seen MMO's as a big impediment to Storytelling, if they wanted to improve Baine they could've given him lines in Dazar'alor defending the Horde during the raid or something.

[Beloren]

You say the problem is that it's an MMO but that FFXIV and others do the job well, so can you clarify on what changes you think they should make?

Personally I've never seen MMO's as a big impediment to Storytelling, if they wanted to improve Baine they could've given him lines in Dazar'alor defending the Horde during the raid or something.

They are willing to let the story drive the game and prioritise it as intensely as they do art and games systems perhaps moreso.

Wow doesn’t. Wow prefers to do cool and game systems, art and world design is also a heavy priority, but the lore is secondary to such and they don’t invest as much in quality writers nor take their leads seriously So what we get seems to be sub par and an unwillingness to do more with regards to said lore.

[Eucep]

Baine: Keep him mostly as is, but focus more on other aspects, let him be the one to question actions like a councillor and shamen should, even if he is neither. The Horde lacks those roles atm. So till you get a clearer purpose character like Zekhan once he has matured some for that, keep him as is. However, he could easily be expanded by letting the aspect of strength be his. Let him pacify the quillboar and centaurs and make em work for the horde to help overcome the food issues. Let him with Hamuul work to restore Agamaggan and Zaetar through heroic feats to get those two races on their side.

Thrall: Imho already going the right way, must see more in Shadowlands.

Voss/Calia: Need to see where they are going with this. But I feel they are setting them up for more importance once the light becomes a foe.

Rokhan: Yeah this guy needs a lot more development, but has a good basis. Let him dive more into the shadow hunter part and the results of his partnership with Talanji and thus also his involvement with Bwonsamdi.

Goblins? Uhm, don't know yet who takes over, but let them largely stay as is. I guess Gazlowe? I think should be fine, more sane and still inventions. Most of their stuff happens because of individuals, less because of their leader.

Lor'themar: Imho, he's been develloped quite well.

[Overlordd]

Not another female leader please we alrdy got tons on the Horde.
We also have ballless guys in Thrall and Baine so you can even count them in the female section.

As if we are ever going to get a testosterone fueled leader with "toxic masculinity" christie golden on the team

[Raisei]

when you trust more on the enemy than your own faction is how you know the character went bad, that was his first mistake, that just keep going further about he working more with the enemy

Yes, if you ignore the circumstances completely.

His father had just been killed in a sacred custom of the Horde, that has been abused to turn a fair fight into outright murder. As much as Garrosh talks about honor and kills his subordinates for honorless tactics, he had apparently no problem with this act. He neither set out to catch and punish Magartha nor did he come to Baine's help when the civil war broke out. He was content to wait and make a deal with whoever came out the winner. In short, he was an honorless opportunist that profited from the perversion of one of the most central laws of his culture without batting an eye.

Is it really so hard to believe that Baine did not trust him and anyone that was under his command? The only reason you can fault him for this choice is because you want to see him in the worst light possible, so any choice he ever made is wrong.

[Combatbutler]

Yes, if you ignore the circumstances completely.

His father had just been killed in a sacred custom of the Horde, that has been abused to turn a fair fight into outright murder. As much as Garrosh talks about honor and kills his subordinates for honorless tactics, he had apparently no problem with this act. He neither set out to catch and punish Magartha nor did he come to Baine's help when the civil war broke out. He was content to wait and make a deal with whoever came out the winner. In short, he was an honorless opportunist that profited from the perversion of one of the most central laws of his culture without batting an eye.

Is it really so hard to believe that Baine did not trust him and anyone that was under his command? The only reason you can fault him for this choice is because you want to see him in the worst light possible, so any choice he ever made is wrong.

He still had the option of Silvermoon. Yet he deliberately chose an enemy instead, that he did not trust garrosh was fine and that he expected the trolls couldn't move being so close to Orgrimmar as well, but that Silvermoon was too far away makes no sense after he thought about asking the forsaken as well.

[Krothar]

I wouldn't. Having diverse characters is better in the long run.

Can it be annoying that X character does Y and then goes ahead and does Z too? Sure.

But I'd still rather have a conflicted character than Zug Zug Honor Orc is cow skin.

[Feanoro]

He still had the option of Silvermoon. Yet he deliberately chose an enemy instead, that he did not trust garrosh was fine and that he expected the trolls couldn't move being so close to Orgrimmar as well, but that Silvermoon was too far away makes no sense after he thought about asking the forsaken as well.

The Forsaken were still under Kor'kron jurisdiction, and the Kor'kron answered to Garrosh.

[Combatbutler]

The Forsaken were still under Kor'kron jurisdiction, and the Kor'kron answered to Garrosh.

Which is why he ruled them out, but he considered them regardless, but to say silvermoon is then too far away, while the undercity was not is not really a good argument to make.

[Magnagarde]

Title says it all, and before we get inundated with "Lol Kill them or write them out of the story entirely", this thread is for actual ideas on what Blizz could do to make you think "Yeah this character is okay" even if you don't fall in love with them cause of how much baggage they have.

Voss, Baine, Thrall, etc... lots of characters on the Horde atm are controversial to say the least.

How could Blizz improve the Horde's gutted roster?

The only way Blizz will improve the Horde's gutted roster is by gutting the Alliance's roster, in order to make it look relatively better. I am highly skeptical of them being able to make either side any better without messing something up. They managed to make Turalyon's reintroduction into the game's universe a sloppy one and that speaks volumes. Considering where they story is going lately and how they're presenting the various cosmic powers, it would seem that it was an intentional lack of interest.

[Feanoro]

Which is why he ruled them out, but he considered them regardless, but to say silvermoon is then too far away, while the undercity was not is not really a good argument to make.

Oh, I see. You're right, I read your post too quickly.

@Magnagarde I don't think you fix a mistake by making the same mistake again. I'd much rather they invest in building some new decent characters for the Horde. As to Turalyon, of course they weren't interested. He's Alliance.

[Magnagarde]

@Magnagarde I don't think you fix a mistake by making the same mistake again. I'd much rather they invest in building some new decent characters for the Horde. As to Turalyon, of course they weren't interested. He's Alliance.

The only decent characters they have to work on have at some point been Alliance or are, in terms of their racial origin, an ex Alliance humanoid. They've got Calia, an undead human raised by a Naaru, Anduin and Velen; Voss, an undead human; Lor'themar, a blood elf. Undead humans, undead high elves, magically deviant high elves and so on have been at the center of most of the big Horde storylines.

They don't have orcs, tauren and trolls they can build upon(save for memes like Zappyboi and Roundhousecleaver Saurfang) simply because they've been neglecting these races for decades, giving way for former Alliance characters to take lead. They took the Argent Dawn and turned it into the Argend Crusade to accommodate the Horde and they took Dalaran to do the same too. By doing this, they took what was organically an Alliance thing and rebranded it as something that then also supposedly belonged to the Horde, in turn unintentionally ignoring proper Horde lore development and diminishing the existing Alliance one.

I won't lie though; the ruling council being established in the Horde gives way for improving the story, but given the composition of races within the Horde I'm a pessimist. You can't make a cake with the wrong ingredients.

[Gann Stonespire]

The Forsaken were still under Kor'kron jurisdiction, and the Kor'kron answered to Garrosh.

There was an entire community of Forsaken in the Pools of Vision, Baine didn't ask.

[Aresk]

when you trust more on the enemy than your own faction is how you know the character went bad, that was his first mistake, that just keep going further about he working more with the enemy

Didn't he work with Horde loyalists to retake Thunder Bluff? Everything I've seen said it was orcs, trolls, and tauren that fought alongside Baine against Magatha, with Gazlowe (then neutral, now Horde) even supplying the bombs for the assault at cost. Jaina just footed the bill and gave Baine a place to stay while organizing everything. In exchange, Baine later (unknowingly) baited the Alliance into Garrosh's trap at Theramore and then (knowingly) led part of the assault on the city that offered him sanctuary. That hardly seems like trusting the enemy more than one's own faction.

On Topic: I think having Baine et. al. unable to settle negotiations with the Alliance is perfectly reasonable for further character/story development. Tyrande wouldn't even talk to Thrall after the war ended. I can't see them making much progress with them barring something in Shadowlands resolving the issue. But then given that the story is leaving the region where tensions can really be applied on a faction basis, I'm a bit hopeless that any new faction-related development will occur.