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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    when you trust more on the enemy than your own faction is how you know the character went bad, that was his first mistake, that just keep going further about he working more with the enemy
    Didn't he work with Horde loyalists to retake Thunder Bluff? Everything I've seen said it was orcs, trolls, and tauren that fought alongside Baine against Magatha, with Gazlowe (then neutral, now Horde) even supplying the bombs for the assault at cost. Jaina just footed the bill and gave Baine a place to stay while organizing everything. In exchange, Baine later (unknowingly) baited the Alliance into Garrosh's trap at Theramore and then (knowingly) led part of the assault on the city that offered him sanctuary. That hardly seems like trusting the enemy more than one's own faction.

    On Topic: I think having Baine et. al. unable to settle negotiations with the Alliance is perfectly reasonable for further character/story development. Tyrande wouldn't even talk to Thrall after the war ended. I can't see them making much progress with them barring something in Shadowlands resolving the issue. But then given that the story is leaving the region where tensions can really be applied on a faction basis, I'm a bit hopeless that any new faction-related development will occur.
    Last edited by Aresk; 2020-09-10 at 08:53 PM.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    There was an entire community of Forsaken in the Pools of Vision, Baine didn't ask.
    Those were in thunderbluff, the place he could not go to without an army at his back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Didn't he work with Horde loyalists to retake Thunder Bluff? Everything I've seen said it was orcs, trolls, and tauren that fought alongside Baine against Magatha, with Gazlowe (then neutral, now Horde) even supplying the bombs for the assault at cost. Jaina just footed the bill and gave Baine a place to stay while organizing everything. In exchange, Baine later (unknowingly) baited the Alliance into Garrosh's trap at Theramore and then (knowingly) led part of the assault on the city that offered him sanctuary. That hardly seems like trusting the enemy more than one's own faction.
    He used mainly mercenaries, hired in ratchet with Jaina's gold.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-09-11 at 02:44 PM.

  3. #123
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Yes, if you ignore the circumstances completely.

    His father had just been killed in a sacred custom of the Horde, that has been abused to turn a fair fight into outright murder. As much as Garrosh talks about honor and kills his subordinates for honorless tactics, he had apparently no problem with this act. He neither set out to catch and punish Magartha nor did he come to Baine's help when the civil war broke out. He was content to wait and make a deal with whoever came out the winner. In short, he was an honorless opportunist that profited from the perversion of one of the most central laws of his culture without batting an eye.

    Is it really so hard to believe that Baine did not trust him and anyone that was under his command? The only reason you can fault him for this choice is because you want to see him in the worst light possible, so any choice he ever made is wrong.
    Garrosh saw fit that Baine himself should deal with the treachery of the Tauren people, if Baine asked him help Garrosh sure would give, he want to be flattered

    There still vol'jin, why he would not trust vol'jin when he himself was against Garrosh since day one? there still other orcs around, silvermoon could be an option too.

    if he didn't trust him why the fucker is in the horde? he never left, why stay in a faction where you don't trust anyone?

    instead he went literally ask help for the enemy, why he didn't joined the alliance then?

    It makes no sense

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Garrosh saw fit that Baine himself should deal with the treachery of the Tauren people, if Baine asked him help Garrosh sure would give, he want to be flattered
    It was Garrosh's honor that was tarnished by Margatha though, apparently that did not bother him when he could reap profits from it (i.e the removal a bothersome critic). That Garrosh has not immediatedly offered his support in such a situation shows what kind of a person he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    There still vol'jin, why he would not trust vol'jin when he himself was against Garrosh since day one? there still other orcs around, silvermoon could be an option too.
    It has been pointed out that the Trolls could not move as they wished during this time. They were too close to Orgrimmar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    if he didn't trust him why the fucker is in the horde? he never left, why stay in a faction where you don't trust anyone?

    instead he went literally ask help for the enemy, why he didn't joined the alliance then?

    It makes no sense
    Just because he lost faith in one Warchief does not mean he lost faith in the Horde as a whole. One would think MoP and BFA showed how that works... Baine at this moment just did not know who he could trust INSIDE the Horde. There was a possibility that a conspracy was going on, so he needed someone from the OUTSIDE, like Jaina.
    Who btw. was not yet an enemy at this point. Jaina friggin sacrificed her father to safe the Horde and Thrall personally allowed her settlement in Theramore, where she tried to work for peace between the factions until Garrosh started his unprovoked war against the Nightelves.

    Really, if everyone that gets betrayed by your Warchiefs immediatedly left the faction the Horde would have no one left.

  5. #125
    Honestly, there’s nothing that would «fix» Baine for me anymore. The only way would be a character change to the point of it not being Baine anymore.

  6. #126
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    It was Garrosh's honor that was tarnished by Margatha though, apparently that did not bother him when he could reap profits from it (i.e the removal a bothersome critic). That Garrosh has not immediatedly offered his support in such a situation shows what kind of a person he is.
    Again, why he would give open support without being asked? Cairne also taint his honor by accusing him of the incident and hitting him in front of people, he had also no reason to "avenge" cairne,

    It has been pointed out that the Trolls could not move as they wished during this time. They were too close to Orgrimmar.
    what the problem of being too close? they could do the hell they wanted
    Just because he lost faith in one Warchief does not mean he lost faith in the Horde as a whole.
    and thats why he didn't sk help to the horde but the enemy? sound stupid as fuc

    don't trust in anyone in the faction
    trust in the enemy
    don't leave th faction that you do not trust

    yeah checks out as a Baine dumb thing to do
    One would think MoP and BFA showed how that works... Baine at this moment just did not know who he could trust INSIDE the Horde. There was a possibility that a conspracy was going on, so he needed someone from the OUTSIDE, like Jaina.
    that is completely obnoxious, Baine knew damn well the horde people since warcraft 3, and someone inside the tauren try to take power and suddenly é can't trust anyone in the horde, yeah right
    Who btw. was not yet an enemy at this point. Jaina friggin sacrificed her father to safe the Horde and Thrall personally allowed her settlement in Theramore, where she tried to work for peace between the factions until Garrosh started his unprovoked war against the Nightelves.
    theramore as the alliance fortress in kalindor bumping soldiers and resources to nothhold watch and the dwarves in the barrens who kill tauren by the dozens

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Those were in thunderbluff, the place he could not go to without an army at his back.
    There was zero mention about him getting the Forsaken even when he went to Thunderbluff, Baine completely overlooked them.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    There was zero mention about him getting the Forsaken even when he went to Thunderbluff, Baine completely overlooked them.
    That group he couldn't have asked, he was out of Mulgore and could not go there anymore, the moment he returned he already had his army at his back.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    The only decent characters they have to work on have at some point been Alliance or are, in terms of their racial origin, an ex Alliance humanoid. They've got Calia, an undead human raised by a Naaru, Anduin and Velen; Voss, an undead human; Lor'themar, a blood elf. Undead humans, undead high elves, magically deviant high elves and so on have been at the center of most of the big Horde storylines.

    They don't have orcs, tauren and trolls they can build upon(save for memes like Zappyboi and Roundhousecleaver Saurfang) simply because they've been neglecting these races for decades, giving way for former Alliance characters to take lead. They took the Argent Dawn and turned it into the Argend Crusade to accommodate the Horde and they took Dalaran to do the same too. By doing this, they took what was organically an Alliance thing and rebranded it as something that then also supposedly belonged to the Horde, in turn unintentionally ignoring proper Horde lore development and diminishing the existing Alliance one.

    I won't lie though; the ruling council being established in the Horde gives way for improving the story, but given the composition of races within the Horde I'm a pessimist. You can't make a cake with the wrong ingredients.
    Sometimes I get the feeling the horde has become the new alliance, pitting all their favourites from the alliance to the horde.

    I mean they even took night elves over and now all the major arcane users are alliance imports. But am I bad for actually liking it?

    I think the way I would have done it is better, but this has its charm too and I’m enjoying a lot of stuff

  10. #130
    They don't need fixing. Their characters are consistent and based in a solid personality. You just dislike that they aren't edgy. Anduin is the best and most consistent character in WoW. He's the only one who has evolved and stayed grounded in his original character traits and intentions.

    I truly believe Game of Thrones ruined fantasy. Everyone just wants every fantasy character to be a murderer and rapist because it makes it
    D E E P.
    Last edited by Varitok; 2020-09-11 at 11:59 PM.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    They don't need fixing. Their characters are consistent and based in a solid personality. You just dislike that they aren't edgy. Anduin is the best and most consistent character in WoW. He's the only one who has evolved and stayed grounded in his original character traits and intentions.

    I truly believe Game of Thrones ruined fantasy. Everyone just wants every fantasy character to be a murderer and rapist because it makes it
    D E E P.
    Even your spiritual liege needs a foil. And Golden made sure every last one of those has either been turned to his side or into a raid boss.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmAddict View Post
    Sometimes I get the feeling the horde has become the new alliance, pitting all their favourites from the alliance to the horde.

    I mean they even took night elves over and now all the major arcane users are alliance imports. But am I bad for actually liking it?

    I think the way I would have done it is better, but this has its charm too and I’m enjoying a lot of stuff
    You're not wrong to like it because, not only do tastes differ, but you also mirror the sentiment of what is currently the majority of the Horde playerbase; this sentiment always belonged to a would-be third faction that never materialized. This faction would be one with races that have very tragic pasts, have been altered by them, but are still finding their place in the world. One that would have controversy, some evil and a lot of pragmatism. The Forsaken, the blood elves and the Nightborne perfectly fit this group, but have been thrown into the Horde and as a result the Horde as a whole has been changed.

    The reason why is because they wanted both factions, the Horde and the Alliance, despite their racial composition, to be seen as equally protagonistic in the story at large because that is what both factions were presented as. This is why the Horde is perpetually starting to look more and more like the Alliance of old and the Alliance is, according to the various hints that we're getting, heading into a Turalyon-based Garrosh era.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    You're not wrong to like it because, not only do tastes differ, but you also mirror the sentiment of what is currently the majority of the Horde playerbase; this sentiment always belonged to a would-be third faction that never materialized. This faction would be one with races that have very tragic pasts, have been altered by them, but are still finding their place in the world. One that would have controversy, some evil and a lot of pragmatism. The Forsaken, the blood elves and the Nightborne perfectly fit this group, but have been thrown into the Horde and as a result the Horde as a whole has been changed.

    The reason why is because they wanted both factions, the Horde and the Alliance, despite their racial composition, to be seen as equally protagonistic in the story at large because that is what both factions were presented as. This is why the Horde is perpetually starting to look more and more like the Alliance of old and the Alliance is, according to the various hints that we're getting, heading into a Turalyon-based Garrosh era.
    I like your idea and analysis. I really like it. No, I mean really.

    The Night elves and Draenei would be in that group too.

    I’m sure of it had been written that way we would not have seen the hostility build up between the night elves and blood elves. I mean you wouldn’t know from wc3 when the two races met. This makes me think the animosity was written into because they put them in opposite factions in TBC when blood elves were written into horde.

    If it was a 3rd faction it would have been written differently. And the Nightborne and Lightforged, Void elves too would have joined that faction.

    Alliance:
    Human
    Dwarf
    Gnome
    Worgen


    Horde
    Orc
    Troll
    Tauren
    Goblin

    Remnant
    Blood elves
    Night elves
    Forsaken
    Draenei

    Pandaren neutral to all.

    All allied races are in the faction of their core races. Complications and difference would still be there, but remember many of these are introduced to incite Horde/alliance conflict and with a 3rd player, different interactions would have occured
    Last edited by Beloren; 2020-09-13 at 07:20 PM.

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