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  1. #1

    New Talent Trees

    It is my opinion A New Talent System is necessary in order to implement more classes in the future. I can spend a long time making my case for this but first I just want to explain the system as this is only a concept and there are a lot of moving parts and room for misinterpretation. So let's get into it.

    There are three sets of Talent trees, each set has two trees. A set of trees will be assigned to four classes. This may seem confusing at first but I hope the examples later will help illustrate this in your mind. They'll be explained in more detail when we get to them. Right now we are going to explain Tome Essences because of the potential negative connotations of the term "Essence" but that its not the same thing as in BFA. I have a more grandiose yet simplistic approach.

    Tome Essences are part of one of the Talent Trees each Class gets. Tome Essences are rewarded by leveling/quests/who knows, this is not set in stone after all, just a concept. What I want to drive home here is that, these Tome Essences are upgraded simply by using the ability, like Weapon specialization in Vanilla so to speak, hopefully it won't be as tedious but please keep that in mind.There are four power levels of the Tome Essences (not including the default level when unlocked or Essences that will automatically upgrade from character levels), take note that these upgrades can happen at any level. Take a peek below to get an idea of where i'm going.


    You will notice that each set of talent trees has a different number of Tome Essences, this is actually to be done for several different reasons. The most important one is actually balance, each class requires a different approach in order to express their pros and cons. And of course this is also keeping other future classes in mind.

    Below is a concept of the Rogue Talent trees, the layout of these trees may be shared with Death Knight, Druid, and Warlock.

    Rogue (And Death Knight,Druid, Warlock Layout)

    So you'll see that Achievement Points will unlock these rings that are chained up, this is to give a different form of progression not exclusive to level.
    You can only have 3 rings active at a time. meaning you'll have a total of 9 Tome Essences active.
    Each ring has a fixed "talent" that you cannot change.
    Each ring contains a PVP talents that will be on during Warmode only, for now anyways..


    Here is a concept of what an unlocked ring can look like, but nothing is set in stone.
    The Primary ability in the center is fixed and cannot be swapped(Each ring has a fixed "talent" you cannot change).
    The Tome Essences can be swapped and not necessarily each tome is unlocked through quests but it may serve as a speed bump every once in awhile for all classes.
    Note that these things can be upgraded despite your character level.

    So Rouge would retain some of the current tree as well... its a bit lack luster I suppose but familiar.
    As the previous tree was not level based, this one is.
    Monk (And Paladin, Priest, Demon Hunter Layout)

    So you'll see that this is very Artifact-esque however these cost 15 achievement points each to tally these up.
    Only three of them things for war mode... like the rest of the classes(that's my preference atm)
    Also this tree only allows a maximum of 3 Tome Essences.


    So this is the Level based tree, nothing too fancy.
    Warrior (And Hunter, Mage, Shaman Layout)

    Yes. What you are seeing here are some actual trees, still a work in progress.
    Costs 30 experience points for each talent point.
    You start at the top of either one at any time and work your way down all three of the columns if you want to, but you can reach the bottom of only one.
    If I did my math right(probably not knowing me) you can probably sacrifice some of the stuff at the bottom the trees just to get extra Tome essence slots.
    The idea of Warriors, Hunters, Mages, and Shamans having this layout gives me good feelings.


    This is a level based tree, and if you can't tell by now I have gathered inspiration from systems that have been in the game already.
    Just a concept...


    I know theres things on the right hand side of the screens like "Player Housing/Garrison" haha, this is just concept screens, don't get too bent out of shape over the minor details please but try to take this in as a beginning stage and it is still waiting to be fully realized.

    The different number of Tome Essences in each tree concept is balanced through yet another system I have deemed Armor Glyphs..


    So classes with the Rogue trees will only get one Armor Glyph Slots
    Classes with the Warrior trees will only get two Armor Glyph Slots
    Classes with the Monk Trees will only get three Armor Gyphs Slonts

    The potency of the Armor Glyph effects will vary some will be different than other classes of the same tree because of the talents. Most of which I figured could increase the item in the designated slot to the current average ilvl but could do something else. Also you can swap these around a bit more easier lol...Its a lot to describe let alone balance. But keep in mind this is not simply for balance but to introduce new classes without a homogenization that I think this gets fairly close to doing. Either way this is a lot to take in and I can't blame people who want to keep the same system. I think this is a new approach that shows some promise but I know it requires a lot of work still. I'm sure there's a lot of unanswered questions or concerns so feel free to share your thoughts.

  2. #2
    New talent trees are filled with dead talents as always...

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunslayer View Post
    New talent trees are filled with dead talents as always...
    I'm just annoyed most classes/specs have had 90-95% the same talent "choices" for 4 years now. There needs to be another major overhaul of them or changing every single one of the abilities for each specs tree.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SerratedEdge252 View Post
    I'm just annoyed most classes/specs have had 90-95% the same talent "choices" for 4 years now. There needs to be another major overhaul of them or changing every single one of the abilities for each specs tree.

    People thought that would happen in SL with this being the first expansion with no new classes or races. Such isnt the case. The talent trees are still absolute garbage.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunslayer View Post
    People thought that would happen in SL with this being the first expansion with no new classes or races. Such isnt the case. The talent trees are still absolute garbage.
    The talent trees do not seem the same as they were in MOP. That's for sure. Perhaps its a bit dated with all the subsequent changes. It is also quite the undertaking to commit to, especially when it comes to what this topic suggests. I must say though that current talent trees with the spreadsheet layout, had its day in the sun and it was good, heck maybe they can return to in the future but right now I agree that something new has to be done.

  6. #6
    The talent tree could use some changes but this is not it. My mind glazed over into stupor from the sheer unnecessary ranks and options. If the different ranks of skills aren't too hard to get anything other than the final rank is fluff and if they are hard it is just a boring grind for no reason. The rest just looks boring and tedious for no reason. The current talents aren't perfect but they are a lot better than this. If I were to recommend a change it needs to be a lot simpler. Complexity for complexity sake isn't fun especially in a world where raidbots will sim your character and spit out the optimal everything for you.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Uko View Post
    The talent tree could use some changes but this is not it. My mind glazed over into stupor from the sheer unnecessary ranks and options. If the different ranks of skills aren't too hard to get anything other than the final rank is fluff and if they are hard it is just a boring grind for no reason. The rest just looks boring and tedious for no reason. The current talents aren't perfect but they are a lot better than this. If I were to recommend a change it needs to be a lot simpler. Complexity for complexity sake isn't fun especially in a world where raidbots will sim your character and spit out the optimal everything for you.
    I would not call this complexity for complexity sake. These talents coupled with armor glyph options do create unique options for various forms of game play, that the current talent system can't provide. I'm not saying that the current talent system is absolutely horrid though. I just see this one to be more diverse and more fun while leveling and in the open world. Like you said people can just sim anyways, so the perceived complexity doesn't really matter then does it. Though I would argue that this talent system is using familiar charts along side familiar abilities so it would be rather quick to adjust to your main in my opinion. Also not everybody's focus is on raids, just saying.

    Regardless I think we all want to see more classes and this talent system can allow more classes to be made without looking like a skin of another class.
    Last edited by Klueade; 2020-09-02 at 04:56 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Klueade View Post
    I would not call this complexity for complexity sake. These talents coupled with armor glyph options do create unique options for various forms of game play, that the current talent system can't provide. I'm not saying that the current talent system is absolutely horrid though. I just see this one to be more diverse and more fun while leveling and in the open world. Like you said people can just sim anyways, so the perceived complexity doesn't really matter then does it. Though I would argue that this talent system is using familiar charts along side familiar abilities so it would be rather quick to adjust to your main in my opinion. Also not everybody's focus is on raids, just saying.

    Regardless I think we all want to see more classes and this talent system can allow more classes to be made without looking like a skin of another class.
    I don't see how this does anything at all to facilitate new class potential homogenization. Rather, you're just blending expansion systems into talent trees and there's no "different approach in order to express their pros and cons" when you're grouping up classes into fairly arbitrary sets whose only difference is seemingly the skin of the UI window.

  9. #9
    This is so inaccessible and convoluted that I don't know who it's for. New and returning players are going to be so intimidated by this that they won't bother touching the game, and veteran players like myself already hate the inaccessible and convoluted systems in BfA like azerite powers, essences and corruptions, and the incoming systems in Shadowlands like soulbinds and conduits, which this feels like it's doubling down on.

    And if all this complexity can just be simmed with a click of a button... what's the point? Then it's not a choice, it's just meaningless hoops to jump through.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I don't see how this does anything at all to facilitate new class potential homogenization. Rather, you're just blending expansion systems into talent trees and there's no "different approach in order to express their pros and cons" when you're grouping up classes into fairly arbitrary sets whose only difference is seemingly the skin of the UI window.
    You might not be able to see it right now but this does indeed but we'd have to get into the new classes. One thing we shouldn't forget though is there is of course class homogenization problems that occur already whether it be between healers, or specs. It already happens. This system as much work as there is needed to be done it does definitely lessen those effects that exist/existed in the game already. Which would give some room to future classes.

    I'm not saying this is the perfect solution, and I can see why you may be skeptical as I am just one person working on this concept and its hard to grasp the leviathan that is wow and truly break down every class every ability every nuance that comes into the current talent system let alone this one. I agree that which classes get which talent charts are arbitrary to an extent but only because I am only one person, I expect if Activision Blizzard would actually consider this they would have a more tact approach layout and graphics but lets not get into my expectations. My point is its not just a different skin of the Talent interface, that is what we have now. This would be better suited to fit each class's build. I'm sorry i'm not the one I would appoint to fight for this idea, but it is mine after all. So if what I said doesn't really resonate with you, it's whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alteiry View Post
    This is so inaccessible and convoluted that I don't know who it's for. New and returning players are going to be so intimidated by this that they won't bother touching the game, and veteran players like myself already hate the inaccessible and convoluted systems in BfA like azerite powers, essences and corruptions, and the incoming systems in Shadowlands like soulbinds and conduits, which this feels like it's doubling down on.

    And if all this complexity can just be simmed with a click of a button... what's the point? Then it's not a choice, it's just meaningless hoops to jump through.
    Ooof. I'm sorry to hear that but I think this does show some promise myself. I think that it really isn't all that complex and really the kinds of complaints i hear from the majority of players they actually need some complexity added to the game that actually matters, and not just a rng or temporary whatever.
    Last edited by Klueade; 2020-09-02 at 05:44 AM.

  11. #11
    Your not understanding good game design. A good system is easy to understand but complex at the end game. This is actually just frustrating to read. It's a lot of good ideas but I just feel like why work this hard.

    To help add new things to the game why not increase the horizontal choices of talents instead of vertical rows. That way you give up something old to do something new. Rather just creating this rat race that gives everyone everything. So shamans can have a stun but they lose something for it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Klueade View Post
    You might not be able to see it right now but this does indeed but we'd have to get into the new classes. One thing we shouldn't forget though is there is of course class homogenization problems that occur already whether it be between healers, or specs. It already happens. This system as much work as there is needed to be done it does definitely lessen those effects that exist/existed in the game already. Which would give some room to future classes.

    I'm not saying this is the perfect solution, and I can see why you may be skeptical as I am just one person working on this concept and its hard to grasp the leviathan that is wow and truly break down every class every ability every nuance that comes into the current talent system let alone this one. I agree that which classes get which talent charts are arbitrary to an extent but only because I am only one person, I expect if Activision Blizzard would actually consider this they would have a more tact approach layout and graphics but lets not get into my expectations. My point is its not just a different skin of the Talent interface, that is what we have now. This would be better suited to fit each class's build. I'm sorry i'm not the one I would appoint to fight for this idea, but it is mine after all. So if what I said doesn't really resonate with you, it's whatever.



    Ooof. I'm sorry to hear that but I think this does show some promise myself. I think that it really isn't all that complex and really the kinds of complaints i hear from the majority of players they actually need some complexity added to the game that actually matters, and not just a rng or temporary whatever.
    You sound to invested in what you made to take criticism which is the problem with blizzard. Also achievements points so now on top of all the other chores. I have to do that shit as well. I want to pvp for my progress stop trying to do this roller coaster shit for power. Cosmetics or allied races fine but not this other shit.

    To be honest it's not hard just fix problems... Look at all wow system find flaws than fix them. Innovation is bullshit and people buy the new cod in bigger numbers yearly. Execute a concept well and they'll actually stay. Apple is fucking massive and never innovates. The original last of us did fuck all to revolutionize the genre. It sold super well. Just fix problems and listen to player. I mean you can't cater to everyone but if the majority hate your idea... Well.
    Last edited by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen; 2020-09-02 at 05:59 AM.
    Violence Jack Respects Women!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by SerratedEdge252 View Post
    I'm just annoyed most classes/specs have had 90-95% the same talent "choices" for 4 years now. There needs to be another major overhaul of them or changing every single one of the abilities for each specs tree.
    This. They complained about cookie cutter specs, when the reality is that there was more variety with the old talent tree system than the current garbage system.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I don't see how this does anything at all to facilitate new class potential homogenization. Rather, you're just blending expansion systems into talent trees and there's no "different approach in order to express their pros and cons" when you're grouping up classes into fairly arbitrary sets whose only difference is seemingly the skin of the UI window.
    Exactly this is blizzard problem they don't understand why x feature failed just try something new without address why x was a bad idea.
    Last edited by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen; 2020-09-02 at 06:04 AM.
    Violence Jack Respects Women!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    Your not understanding good game design. A good system is easy to understand but complex at the end game. This is actually just frustrating to read. It's a lot of good ideas but I just feel like why work this hard.

    To help add new things to the game why not increase the horizontal choices of talents instead of vertical rows. That way you give up something old to do something new. Rather just creating this rat race that gives everyone everything. So shamans can have a stun but they lose something for it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You sound to invested in what you made to take criticism which is the problem with blizzard. Also achievements points so now on top of all the other chores. I have to do that shit as well. I want to pvp for my progress stop trying to do this roller coaster shit for power. Cosmetics or allied races fine but not this other shit.

    To be honest it's not hard just fix problems... Look at all wow system find flaws than fix them. Innovation is bullshit and people buy the new cod in bigger numbers yearly. Execute a concept well and they're actually stay. Apple is fucking massive and never innovates.
    I do understand decent game design and I know what complexity looks like, this isn't even that complex. If its that complex just ask me questions about it then? Sorry this frustrates you Jack. However I do take criticism quite well, I mean its just a concept so I think I'm responding appropriately considering the feedback. Also iPods, just saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    This. They complained about cookie cutter specs, when the reality is that there was more variety with the old talent tree system than the current garbage system.
    Edit: (went a little too heavy) yeah personally I believe this does bring back quite a bit of variety, raidbots be damned.
    Last edited by Klueade; 2020-09-02 at 06:11 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Klueade View Post
    I do understand decent game design and I know what complexity looks like, this isn't even that complex. If its that complex just ask me questions about it then? Sorry this frustrates you Jack. However I do take criticism quite well, I mean its just a concept so I think I'm responding appropriately considering the feedback. Also iPods, just saying.


    Edit: (went a little to heavy) yeah personally I believe this does bring back quite a bit of variety, raidbots be damned.
    It doesn't matter just take the opinion and move on this is convoluted for the sake of it. So many currencies and also achievement points based after people got tired of having to do multiple activities for power in bfa...
    Violence Jack Respects Women!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Klueade View Post
    The talent trees do not seem the same as they were in MOP. That's for sure. Perhaps its a bit dated with all the subsequent changes. It is also quite the undertaking to commit to, especially when it comes to what this topic suggests. I must say though that current talent trees with the spreadsheet layout, had its day in the sun and it was good, heck maybe they can return to in the future but right now I agree that something new has to be done.

    Watching beta tester vids seems like talent trees are filled with mostly garbage.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ViolenceJackRespectsWomen View Post
    It doesn't matter just take the opinion and move on this is convoluted for the sake of it. So many currencies and also achievement points based after people got tired of having to do multiple activities for power in bfa...
    Seems contrarian for the sake of it. The concept, it requires 900 Achievement points to complete, but that's after the achievement squish(just kidding about the squish). Also achievement points promotes all kinds of game play. The problem with the systems of the past is that it actually required currency and only a limited number of things gave that currency. I actually understand the argument you made though so I offered a rebuttal I even addressed the Apple thing. So if you wanted to tell me you don't like it and why I hear you loud and clear. I really do appreciate the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunslayer View Post
    Watching beta tester vids seems like talent trees are filled with mostly garbage.
    Is there a particular class you believe got it the worst?

  18. #18
    I would honstly love a new talent system. But at the same time I don't want the new talent system to be similar to the artifact/heart system.
    Something new would be really nice.
    'Cuz if you're gonna be mine, you don't have to take your time~♪

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Klueade View Post
    Seems contrarian for the sake of it. The concept, it requires 900 Achievement points to complete, but that's after the achievement squish(just kidding about the squish). Also achievement points promotes all kinds of game play. The problem with the systems of the past is that it actually required currency and only a limited number of things gave that currency. I actually understand the argument you made though so I offered a rebuttal I even addressed the Apple thing. So if you wanted to tell me you don't like it and why I hear you loud and clear. I really do appreciate the feedback.


    Is there a particular class you believe got it the worst?

    There are so many "must take talents" it's hard to say. It's like classes are half a class without talents. Like Frost DK has no aoe without Frost Scythe talent etc. Class Design is such trash.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Your Mommy View Post
    I would honstly love a new talent system. But at the same time I don't want the new talent system to be similar to the artifact/heart system.
    Something new would be really nice.
    Right, I know this system looks similar to those of the artifacts/heart/vanilla. I assure you though that is just because of the talent trees have a similar layout. However there is not a crazy currency or even much of a story line attached tbh. In those respects I think you'll see some potential in this system.

    Edit: Well actually it is closer to how the vanilla talents were added up I guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sunslayer View Post
    There are so many "must take talents" it's hard to say. It's like classes are half a class without talents. Like Frost DK has no aoe without Frost Scythe talent etc. Class Design is such trash.
    When stuff like that is really in your face, it makes me want to just focus on aesthetics. If I don't have that rare thing it becomes more disheartening in my opinion. I hope Blizzard does come up with something that can appease more people, cause you can't please everyone. Really though I hate when that's said, I'd rather say we can surprise everyone with positive results.
    Last edited by Klueade; 2020-09-02 at 07:40 AM.

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