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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    no it didnt, at all...
    it was probably most eficient way of geting AP, but you were in no way forced to do them
    If you wanted to earn the most AP possible then yes, you were. Of course if you don't care how powerful your character is then you aren't "forced" to do anything. But that wasn't my point.

    People in mythic raiding absolutely had to grind islands to meet the minimum AP requirements their guilds had. This was really a thing.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2020-09-04 at 08:51 AM.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Devilyaki View Post
    Really not looking forwards to being grounded for like a year again
    Thats becouse you dont really like palying mmorpg games and this fautl is on you and not game.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    If you wanted to earn the most AP possible then yes, you were. Of course if you don't care how powerful your character is then you aren't "forced" to do anything. But that wasn't my point.

    People in mythic raiding absolutely had to grind islands to meet the minimum AP requirements their guilds had. This was really a thing.
    yes, people going for world first as they need that azerite withina week and for them even one level on heart make a difference, for everybody else it was not even necesary, and definitely not "forced"...
    actualy, it might have been "forced" by your guild, but bad organisation in guild is hardly fault of blizz or BFA...

    there were many things wrong with BFA, but "forced" islands are completely fault of people, not the game...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2020-09-04 at 09:59 AM.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by arucado3 View Post
    This is the first expansion i can say from miles that it is going to be a huge piece of crap and it will be dead within 2 months from release. Even WoD and BfA atleast seemed to be somewhat good at the beginning
    Both died within a month, shadowlands lasting 2 months is an achievement imo.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    I disagree and here is why.

    As a a super casual player I feel like covenants force a choice that should never happen. For Rogue necro bone spike is so good at everything that I can never consider Night Fae, so I am forced into Necro for Bone Spike Plus, Sepsis is constantly bugging against NPCs which makes it a poor choice anyways.
    If you are playing in a way that you make your choice of covenant based on performance rather than purely fun, you are not really a super casual player. Maybe you do not play a lot, but you are ambitious about your performance - that makes you not casual.

    And about being forced - you are not being forced but rather you have only one option because you want to optimize for performance. Not saying this is a good thing, since you should have more options, but being limited to one option comes from you choosing the optimal performance route. That choice is not universal for everyone.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    yes, people going for world first as they need that azerite withina week and for them even one level on heart make a difference, for everybody else it was not even necesary, and definitely not "forced"...
    actualy, it might have been "forced" by your guild, but bad organisation in guild is hardly fault of blizz or BFA...

    there were many things wrong with BFA, but "forced" islands are completely fault of people, not the game...
    It wasn't just world first guild who had to this, it was every mythic guild. The requirements were basically what was needed to unlock the defensive azerite armor traits for mythic raiding, they were not exactly optional, if you wanted to actually kill bosses.

    And this is not about "optimal" method of getting that azerite, grinding islands was literally the only possible way to achieve it.

    Stop digging, you're just wrong on this point. Grinding islands was the only real way to farm AP early in the expansion. It was a required activity for anyone doing high end content, the end.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2020-09-04 at 10:25 AM.

  7. #147
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    People who are looking for a reason to be disappointed will be find a way to be disappointed.

    It's like this faux-outrage over so-called "borrowed powers", while in reality it's nothing more than just your class/spec getting a new spell or perk. It being removed in the next expansion bears little meaning, because it's 2 years down the road.

    Same will be with covenants, people will spread ash over their heads about the restrictions, but let's be real - people who care will find an optimal recipe anyway in class discord and those who don't care get to live their fantasy of Fairy Warlocks or some such.

    For my decade and a half I play this game, I went through plenty of systems, busted items, spells and specs and really Shadowlands is nothing different there, so as long as it has stellar WoW raids, I don't care much what system they pad it with.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Thats becouse you dont really like palying mmorpg games and this fautl is on you and not game.
    Naw just don’t like the boring travel, rather be doing the fun stuff, what is so bad about that? Just cause it’s a mmorpg doesn’t mean you have to be bored more than entertained. Sound like you just like annoying walking, go play death stranding.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    It wasn't just world first guild who had to this, it was every mythic guild. The requirements were basically what was needed to unlock the defensive azerite armor traits for mythic raiding, they were not exactly optional, if you wanted to actually kill bosses.

    And this is not about "optimal" method of getting that azerite, grinding islands was literally the only possible way to achieve it.

    Stop digging, you're just wrong on this point. Grinding islands was the only real way to farm AP early in the expansion. It was a required activity for anyone doing high end content, the end.
    we are mythic guilds, i had all my azerite till 8.3 via WQ, m+, raids and occasional warfront... so i guess we have to be god tier level players, since we cleared everything without doing "required" activies... or, and this is more likely, you are wrong and you just did it bcs "top" players did so you though you have to...

    btw, ending your OPINION with "the end" doesnt make you right, it just makes you look silly and somewhat childish...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2020-09-04 at 10:44 AM.

  10. #150
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    It wasn't just world first guild who had to this, it was every mythic guild. The requirements were basically what was needed to unlock the defensive azerite armor traits for mythic raiding, they were not exactly optional, if you wanted to actually kill bosses.

    And this is not about "optimal" method of getting that azerite, grinding islands was literally the only possible way to achieve it.

    Stop digging, you're just wrong on this point. Grinding islands was the only real way to farm AP early in the expansion. It was a required activity for anyone doing high end content, the end.
    Yeah ok, nope.

    Starting 8.2 Azerite was literally not a thing anymore. We finished Eternal Palace 345 World and Nyalotha 442 World on 2 days per week timer and nobody was required to grind AP.

    I got all the AP I needed from table, WQs (kill one dude for big AP) and some one-time or other activities. I probably did less than 10 Islands total in 8.2 and I'm not even sure I even did one island in 8.3.

    You grossly overestimate what is required to clear Mythic raids. If it's legit world first, then you need every advantage you can get, but if you are getting to later bosses after like a month and a bit - you already have a lot of catchup gear and such making things already easier. By that time you pretty much will have all the AP you need semi-passively anyway.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Sentynel View Post
    Why are you so sure they won't expand on their existing garbage systems throughout the expansion or introduce other garbage systems on top of the already existing garbage systems? Do you have Blizzard's content schedule?
    According to them all the rental systems are out at launch because they believe players did not like being handed a bunch of new systems as the expansion progressed like BFA.

    That seems like a big gamble if you ask me with how BFA went after all. With that said what you say is true that there is no guarantee they might not resort to pushing out more systems to patch existing systems as we saw with BFA azerite armor release and then essences designed to patch the issues surrounding azerite armor being so passive while essences was far more active.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoss View Post
    If you are playing in a way that you make your choice of covenant based on performance rather than purely fun, you are not really a super casual player. Maybe you do not play a lot, but you are ambitious about your performance - that makes you not casual.

    And about being forced - you are not being forced but rather you have only one option because you want to optimize for performance. Not saying this is a good thing, since you should have more options, but being limited to one option comes from you choosing the optimal performance route. That choice is not universal for everyone.

    That is a common misconception of casual players.

    I can't use Night Fae Sepsis solo because it resets NPCs. Kyrian Rogue ability echoing reprimand I can't use fighting single NPCs because they either die too quickly to utilize the "seventh combo point" or I can never land the proper CP amounts due to Rogue CP generation being very RNG. Venthyr? It is basically poisons I have to keep reapplying every two minutes and it is not an upgrade over Rogue poisons which lasts an hour.

    So yeah Bone Spike it is. And ironically enough even when Bone Spike is nerfed it is still going to be far and away the best one because it simply works the best still. So even if the tuning passes lowers the damage of Bone Spike the simple fact that it 1. Works and is not cumbersome, and 2. It adds utility of ranged CP generation while allowing neve rending bleeds on multiple targets till the targets die it is huge.
    Last edited by Mafic; 2020-09-04 at 11:14 AM.

  12. #152
    i hate the Casual/World First Raider comparison. Not even the most Casual Raider except very very few would pass on like 20% Power differential between the Covenants/Soulbinds over visuals and story.
    Thats the Problem that they either have to narrow the gap to an acceptable amount or seperate the power from it.

    Another disadvantage besides everything else is that some classes use the same Covenant for all Specs and some need different one for every Spec. So those classes have a huge problem over those classes who uses same one.

    The answer to all this hearing the Feedback is that Blizzard wants it this way. Thats the way to keep players engaged for almost 2 Years. Give a flawed system when everyone is hiped for new exspansion. Patch it to make it a little better and then fix it in patch 9.2 or smth. And although many complain and some unsub the majority get tricked into continue grinding. Thats the story for all the last expansions and all they say now is just blah.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Packmule View Post
    Its fine man, game had died since legion. Just a cookt cutter diablo type of game now. Cant take the game serious at this point anymore. Shouldnt expect miracles anymore by now.
    There is a chance to save the game because WoW needs to return to its MMORPG roots and not go down the path of a single player action RPG. For some reasons they want to remake WoW into an action RPG which doesn't make sense to me.

    Scaling for example on the PTR is still not working correctly and it feels all wrong to be leveling and still not feeling you are progressing. Worse, in BFA zones as you are not granted HoA to level 50 now and new players are being forced to level to 10-50 in BFA zones? That would lead to a bad first impression to WoW if new players are forced to play through BFA zones without HoA while also being very confusing.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Same will be with covenants, people will spread ash over their heads about the restrictions, but let's be real - people who care will find an optimal recipe anyway in class discord and those who don't care get to live their fantasy of Fairy Warlocks or some such.
    I mean I'm planing on going night fae on mine because the notion of inevitable demise and soul rot to be hilarious. Optimal? Probably not. Laugh inducing harvester of life? Oh yes.

    I only really do semi optimization on my main and even then I'm not gonna touch night fae as her because its too much like legion blessing of might and I refuse to use that on principle.

    On the whole until we see the release build its all rather fluid right now. Every Wednesday like clockwork they've been releasing large updates and are adjusting the knobs as needed.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    According to them all the rental systems are out at launch because they believe players did not like being handed a bunch of new systems as the expansion progressed like BFA.

    That seems like a big gamble if you ask me with how BFA went after all. With that said what you say is true that there is no guarantee they might not resort to pushing out more systems to patch existing systems as we saw with BFA azerite armor release and then essences designed to patch the issues surrounding azerite armor being so passive while essences was far more active.




    That is a common misconception of casual players.

    I can't use Night Fae Sepsis solo because it resets NPCs. Kyrian Rogue ability echoing reprimand I can't use fighting single NPCs because they either die too quickly to utilize the "seventh combo point" or I can never land the proper CP amounts due to Rogue CP generation being very RNG. Venthyr? It is basically poisons I have to keep reapplying every two minutes and it is not an upgrade over Rogue poisons which lasts an hour.

    So yeah Bone Spike it is. And ironically enough even when Bone Spike is nerfed it is still going to be far and away the best one because it simply works the best still. So even if the tuning passes lowers the damage of Bone Spike the simple fact that it 1. Works and is not cumbersome, and 2. It adds utility of ranged CP generation while allowing neve rending bleeds on multiple targets till the targets die it is huge.
    Nobody this invested in the details of the mechanics is casual. You don't understand what casual means.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deckzor View Post
    i hate the Casual/World First Raider comparison. Not even the most Casual Raider except very very few would pass on like 20% Power differential between the Covenants/Soulbinds over visuals and story.
    Thats the Problem that they either have to narrow the gap to an acceptable amount or seperate the power from it.

    Another disadvantage besides everything else is that some classes use the same Covenant for all Specs and some need different one for every Spec. So those classes have a huge problem over those classes who uses same one.

    The answer to all this hearing the Feedback is that Blizzard wants it this way. Thats the way to keep players engaged for almost 2 Years. Give a flawed system when everyone is hiped for new exspansion. Patch it to make it a little better and then fix it in patch 9.2 or smth. And although many complain and some unsub the majority get tricked into continue grinding. Thats the story for all the last expansions and all they say now is just blah.
    Your fallacy here is assuming a 20% power differential when played by extremely proficient players is going to mean a 20% power differential when played by average players. It won't.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Nobody this invested in the details of the mechanics is casual. You don't understand what casual means.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Your fallacy here is assuming a 20% power differential when played by extremely proficient players is going to mean a 20% power differential when played by average players. It won't.
    Casual means you play less...not that you are terrible at the game. Most mythic raiders are casual players for example trying to only log on for raiders and a few mythic pluses.

    You mean he doesn't understand awful players and I admit he doesn't bring them up because why would you? I doubt any class change is going to revolutionize lfr.

    20% power difference will be massive among any player doing remotely challenging content. The skill ceiling for wow in most cases isn't that high. It is to the point that arguably the world first guild rarely is comprised of the best players but rather those that can play the most.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    Casual means you play less...not that you are terrible at the game. Most mythic raiders are casual players for example trying to only log on for raiders and a few mythic pluses.
    Yeah, you don't understand what casual means.

    You mean he doesn't understand awful players and I admit he doesn't bring them up because why would you? I doubt any class change is going to revolutionize lfr.
    I don't care that you hate the majority of the playerbase.

    20% power difference will be massive among any player doing remotely challenging content. The skill ceiling for wow in most cases isn't that high. It is to the point that arguably the world first guild rarely is comprised of the best players but rather those that can play the most.
    Whether content is challenging is relative to the player doing it. Challenge isn't an objective concept. Normal is challenging for a lot of people. M+5 is challenging for a lot of people.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Yeah, you don't understand what casual means.



    I don't care that you hate the majority of the playerbase.



    Whether content is challenging is relative to the player doing it. Challenge isn't an objective concept. Normal is challenging for a lot of people. M+5 is challenging for a lot of people.
    No challenging isn't retaliative in a set system. While its true challenging can be defined by personal experience if it already exists on a scale it isn't quantified that way. I gave you the dictionary definition of casual not your weird twisting of the word on it and I don't hate the majority of my subscription its thanks to them stealing moms credit card that I managed to break 18million gold this expansion.
    Last edited by goldlock; 2020-09-04 at 12:50 PM.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    No challenging isn't retaliative in a set system. While its true challenging can be defined by personal experience if it already exists on a scale it isn't quantified that way. I gave you the dictionary definition of casual not your weird twisting of the word on it and I don't hate the majority of my subscription its thanks to them stealing moms credit cart that I managed to break 18million gold this expansion.
    Is a standard 10 mile hiking trail challenging?

    For someone who has never hiked, yes.

    For someone who has hiked every weekend for years, no.

    Stop trying to make your opinion into objective reality. It isn't. Get over it.

    Dictionary? This is how the dictionary defines "casual":

    1. relaxed and unconcerned.
    2. not regular or permanent.

    A mythic raider is not "relaxed or unconcerned" with the game. A mythic raider is not an irregular player. They literally play on a rigid schedule. As I said, you don't know what casual means. It is not about time investment. "Casual player" is contrasted with "Competitive player". While this is obviously a spectrum, the idea that mythic raiders fall closer to the casual end than the competitive end is nonsense. It's just an attempt, like above, to define yourself into being right by denying the obvious.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Is a standard 10 mile hiking trail challenging?

    For someone who has never hiked, yes.

    For someone who has hiked every weekend for years, no.

    Stop trying to make your opinion into objective reality. It isn't. Get over it.

    Dictionary? This is how the dictionary defines "casual":

    1. relaxed and unconcerned.
    2. not regular or permanent.

    A mythic raider is not "relaxed or unconcerned" with the game. A mythic raider is not an irregular player. They literally play on a rigid schedule. As I said, you don't know what casual means. It is not about time investment. "Casual player" is contrasted with "Competitive player". While this is obviously a spectrum, the idea that mythic raiders fall closer to the casual end than the competitive end is nonsense. It's just an attempt, like above, to define yourself into being right by denying the obvious.
    I could argue the words definition but I don't see that as overly productive since we will each draw from different dictionaries. Very well beyond what I can fleece from them what value do casuals have with this conversation? If they will just do whatever randomly why would anyone care to design a system around them? In all likely hood they will simply wholesale copy whatever the "good" players do and then enforce strange rigid requirements on their fellows.

    Whatever system is made they have a more parasitic existence simply copying whatever the better players are doing.

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