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  1. #1

    Post Shadowlands has major problems up ahead

    Howdy, My name is Mafic and I am a super casual player of WoW. I like to craft hexweave bags, do some BGs or do some normal questing content. Spare time I do transmog farming or whatever I think this is fun.

    But what prompted me to post this thread is that with the upcoming expansion near I have seen that it is problematic in many facets. The expansion is problematic because of the various issues I have discovered on the PTR with prepatch and also from what beta testers have told me as well as I what have read from the beta. So, here goes to what are the main major problems of Shadowlands.

    Prepatch

    There are three main problems I have found with prepatch of shadowlands. The first problem is the level squish is not doing as promised as the legacy content has become significantly harder because of two factors. Primarily because of the removal of corruptions/downscaline of essences. And, second because of the botched scaling. Now, in fairness BlizZArd has said they are looking at the scaling issues in legacy raids and dungeons. But! As we have seen many of the scaling issues from the last squish were not address properly and the current scaling in BFA PVP has been a trainwreck of confusion and abuse. And, this time we are going to see a level and item squish all at once to further complicate matters. So far what is happening is that because of the level squish it feels like most recent expansions are not treated as legacy content. For example if you are level 40 after the squish you are going to feel the pain just doing basic legacy raids.

    Second problem which is related to the first problem is the legacy loot has been changed and there is no communication from BlizZard on this issue. Is it intended to receive only one gear drop from legacy raid bosses now? I don't know and BlizZard has been radio silent thus far. The impact this had is not only related to raw gold per hour. But also impacts those that like to transmog hunt for gear and also impacts the replay value of older content. It is nice to have something else to look forward to beyond current endgame content. Why take away that player fun?

    And the third problem is related to the first two problems which is the hard cap of AoE which impacts legacy farming but also end game. It is very noticeable with BFA content in prepatch that you take longer to take down mobs and it feels all very clunky.

    There are other problems with the prepatch regarding the zombie event, mount equipment being unlocked at a higher level than flying, being kicked out of chromie time once you reach level 50, etc.

    I could make and entire post talking about the devaluation of gear and the raw gold heading into prepatch but I will save that for another day.

    Moving on these are the main issues with shadowlands itself:

    1. Covenant structure is too rigid and not congruent to the MMORPG experience. IF WoW was a single player action RPG it wouldn't matter how balanced the respective covenants are. But since WoW is a MMORPG and we do interact with players at some point it is necessary to point out that covenant locking is the not the answer. I feel that punishing those that want to play other specs or alts is not the answer because there is already a shortage of tanks and healers in WoW. There are also various issues with covenants and quests not supported by the story quest chains. So, such a rigid choice does not work or feel like a meaningful choice.

    2. Borrowed power that is layered upon each other has stifled the growth of classes at their core base and many classes are incomplete. No new talent tier since WoD and no new baseline abilities since MoP. The legendaries are mostly legendaries from legion itself aka legiondaries and thus does not feel new. The argument for borrowed power was so BlizZard can do something new and experiment with each expansion. Corruption was an experiment but BlizZard did not put much effort or thinking to put into place to make it work. Betraying that principle reveals that borrowed power shenanigans is coming to a close and players are starting to figure it all out. Classes need to be whole again and I don't think the great unpruner has done enough to unprune classes. The lack of communication from the unpruner reveals a deep problem with BlizZard in that they have decided to make a game targeted at an audience that doesn't exist while ignoring their core PC MMORPG audience.

    3. Game play loop of systemlands is too linear, narrow and repetitive. The world quests at level cap for the expansion are just very tedious, long and not rewarding. No flight whistles, and the zones are poorly designed with vertical lift that would make WoD zones blush. The lack of flight paths reinforces that the expansion is not that friendly to those that want to be in and out with world quests. True, a weekly cap and less world quests is a plus, but the downside is that BlizZard has designed a game where you spend more time traveling to a few tedious world quests. Also, the lack of no info for part 1 of flying is a big red flag. However, with how disconnected the zones are it is clear that there isn't a solid plan of how flying will be allowed in the upcoming expansion. The worst has to be the MAW though as not even ground mounts are allowed in there and it is required to be in there for progression which feels bad IMVHO.

    4. Lack of player agency in general is something that has plagued WoW the last few expansions but is very noticeable with the upcoming expansion. At Blizzcon BlizZard said they wanted to return player agency but I don't see it that way with covenant locking, no info on part 1 of flying, torghast not being the roguelike experience as sold at blizzcon, etc.

    Classes still feel bad with the GCD and it will be more noticeable with the active covenant abilities. In short there are many problems with shadowlands and time is running out.

    Can they fix these issues? Sure.

    But they have to start to listen to feedback from players on the PTR and beta forums. That is how BFA went down the tubes because they ignored the feedback from players and rushed BFA out.

    Lets hope that does not happen with the upcoming expansion.
    Last edited by Mafic; 2020-09-02 at 02:04 PM.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  2. #2
    Nice analysis. Nobody cares about your opinion.

  3. #3
    Let me add that another issue I have read about the upcoming expansion is that with all these layers of systems raidbots increases in importance because it is too difficult to tell what is an upgrade or not and the many moving parts and synergies involved. So simming becomes more necessary with these rental systems all layered and stacked together all at once for the expansion launch.

    At least with BFA the rental systems were spread out but this will feel 100% worse IMVHO because it is coming at us all at once which is not good!
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  4. #4
    The problem Shadowlands faces is it will soon become 'the current expansion'.

    And MMO-C has shown us that 'the current expansion' is always terrible, the worse, absolute garbage etc.

    Nothing new here.

    There are ONLY three possible reasons to vote for Donald J Trump this November.
    You are ignorant, you are irrational or you are incredibly wealthy.
    Be rational, be informed.

  5. #5
    The Patient Sezerek's Avatar
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    Why are you capitalizing the 2. "z" of Blizzard everytime?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    The problem Shadowlands faces is it will soon become 'the current expansion'.

    And MMO-C has shown us that 'the current expansion' is always terrible, the worse, absolute garbage etc.

    Nothing new here.
    Based on beta feedback it can be saved though if they pull the rip cord IMVHO.

    They can save covenants and the expansion if they just listen to players.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  7. #7
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    The "major" problems seem to affect mostly the top 0.1% of raiders and the pseudo-elitist idiots that think they are like the 0.1% of raiders.

    Thus.. not really Major problems at all, as the game would likely be far better off without them.

  8. #8
    “I’m a super casual who is the beta and repeating all the meme complaints about shadowlands.”
    They will fix the scaling. Not the first time scaling for the old content has been implemented and had to be fixed to make it easier for the people who claim the game isn’t hard enough.

  9. #9
    This is the first expansion i can say from miles that it is going to be a huge piece of crap and it will be dead within 2 months from release. Even WoD and BfA atleast seemed to be somewhat good at the beginning

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    The "major" problems seem to affect mostly the top 0.1% of raiders and the pseudo-elitist idiots that think they are like the 0.1% of raiders.

    Thus.. not really Major problems at all, as the game would likely be far better off without them.
    I disagree and here is why.

    As a a super casual player I feel like covenants force a choice that should never happen. For Rogue necro bone spike is so good at everything that I can never consider Night Fae, so I am forced into Necro for Bone Spike Plus, Sepsis is constantly bugging against NPCs which makes it a poor choice anyways.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  11. #11
    Thanks for the blog post.

    Also, if your major points are the most commonly whined-about aspects of wow, you're not saying anything new, and just seems like you're parroting what's "popular" to whine about.

    and i also chuckled at "super casual player" doing PTR\beta\analysis... sure man.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtigal View Post
    Nice analysis. Nobody cares about your opinion.
    Really? I care, and I also agree with him. I’ve been in SL since alpha and it’s... going to be unpleasant. But, you already sound unpleasant, so you’ll probably feel right at home.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Thanks for the blog post.

    Also, if your major points are the most commonly whined-about aspects of wow, you're not saying anything new, and just seems like you're parroting what's "popular" to whine about.

    and i also chuckled at "super casual player" doing PTR\beta\analysis... sure man.
    I don't agree because anyone can access the PTR. Right now on the PTR there are so many issues and prepatch is very near. Lots of bugs, scaling is really bad and the squish of gear is not consistent across content (eg BFA).

    And with BFA you can't really choose to level in BFA as the HoA is not unlocked to level 50 now which defeats the point of doing any BFA content again if you desire to do so.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    And MMO-C has shown us that BFA is terrible, the worse, absolute garbage etc.

    Nothing new here.
    I agree. That's why Shadowlands still looks good in comparison. There will be talk for decades about just how the bad Bfa was.
    A rare monument of ineptitude that will be hard to match even by Blizzard itself.

  15. #15
    PSA: If someone has to attack the messenger to obscure the message, that means they’re afraid of people considering the original message.

    Please continue.

  16. #16
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    I disagree and here is why.

    As a a super casual player I feel like covenants force a choice that should never happen. For Rogue necro bone spike is so good at everything that I can never consider Night Fae, so I am forced into Necro for Bone Spike Plus, Sepsis is constantly bugging against NPCs which makes it a poor choice anyways.
    if as a super casual player you feel "forced" to do things in a video game, re-evaluate.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    I disagree and here is why.

    As a a super casual player I feel like covenants force a choice that should never happen. For Rogue necro bone spike is so good at everything that I can never consider Night Fae, so I am forced into Necro for Bone Spike Plus, Sepsis is constantly bugging against NPCs which makes it a poor choice anyways.
    why, as a self confessed "super casual player" do you even care, if one ability is so much better than the other? its not like it matters since you dont do any challenging content anyway.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    I agree. That's why Shadowlands still looks good in comparison. There will be talk for decades about just how the bad Bfa was.
    A rare monument of ineptitude that will be hard to match even by Blizzard itself.
    I am not so sure because the template for the new expansion was already tested with patch 8.3 content. That game play loop with visions and corruptions is the building block of how the new expansion will work in a similar fashion.

    You will need to participate in the maw and torghast to progress on a weekly basis and there is no avoiding this game play loop like in patch 8.3 you had to participate in the game play loop to progress the cloak and be able to use corruptions.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Howdy, My name is Mafic and I am a super casual player of WoW. I like to craft hexweave bags, do some BGs or do some normal questing content. Spare time I do transmog farming or whatever I think this is fun.

    But what prompted me to post this thread is that with the upcoming expansion near I have seen that it is problematic in many facets. The expansion is problematic because of the various issues I have discovered on the PTR with prepatch and also from what beta testers have told me as well as I what have read from the beta. So, here goes to what are the main major problems of Shadowlands.

    Prepatch

    There are three main problems I have found with prepatch of shadowlands. The first problem is the level squish is not doing as promised as the legacy content has become significantly harder because of two factors. Primarily because of the removal of corruptions/downscaline of essences. And, second because of the botched scaling. Now, in fairness BlizZArd has said they are looking at the scaling issues in legacy raids and dungeons. But! As we have seen many of the scaling issues from the last squish were not address properly and the current scaling in BFA PVP has been a trainwreck of confusion and abuse. And, this time we are going to see a level and item squish all at once to further complicate matters. So far what is happening is that because of the level squish it feels like most recent expansions are not treated as legacy content. For example if you are level 40 after the squish you are going to feel the pain just doing basic legacy raids.

    Second problem which is related to the first problem is the legacy loot has been changed and there is no communication from BlizZard on this issue. Is it intended to receive only one gear drop from legacy raid bosses now? I don't know and BlizZard has been radio silent thus far. The impact this had is not only related to raw gold per hour. But also impacts those that like to transmog hunt for gear and also impacts the replay value of older content. It is nice to have something else to look forward to beyond current endgame content. Why take away that player fun?

    And the third problem is related to the first two problems which is the hard cap of AoE which impacts legacy farming but also end game. It is very noticeable with BFA content in prepatch that you take longer to take down mobs and it feels all very clunky.

    There are other problems with the prepatch regarding the zombie event, mount equipment being unlocked at a higher level than flying, being kicked out of chromie time once you reach level 50, etc.

    I could make and entire post talking about the devaluation of gear and the raw gold heading into prepatch but I will save that for another day.

    Moving on these are the main issues with shadowlands itself:

    1. Covenant structure is too rigid and not congruent to the MMORPG experience. IF WoW was a single player action RPG it wouldn't matter how balanced the respective covenants are. But since WoW is a MMORPG and we do interact with players at some point it is necessary to point out that covenant locking is the not the answer. I feel that punishing those that want to play other specs or alts is not the answer because there is already a shortage of tanks and healers in WoW. There are also various issues with covenants and quests not supported by the story quest chains. So, such a rigid choice does not work or feel like a meaningful choice.

    2. Borrowed power that is layered upon each other has stifled the growth of classes at their core base and many classes are incomplete. No new talent tier since WoD and no new baseline abilities since MoP. The legendaries are mostly legendaries from legion itself aka legiondaries and thus does not feel new. The argument for borrowed power was so BlizZard can do something new and experiment with each expansion. Corruption was an experiment but BlizZard did not put much effort or thinking to put into place to make it work. Betraying that principle reveals that borrowed power shenanigans is coming to a close and players are starting to figure it all out. Classes need to be whole again and I don't think the great unpruner has done enough to unprune classes. The lack of communication from the unpruner reveals a deep problem with BlizZard in that they have decided to make a game targeted at an audience that doesn't exist while ignoring their core PC MMORPG audience.

    3. Game play loop of systemlands is too linear, narrow and repetitive. The world quests at level cap for the expansion are just very tedious, long and not rewarding. No flight whistles, and the zones are poorly designed with vertical lift that would make WoD zones blush. The lack of flight paths reinforces that the expansion is not that friendly to those that want to be in and out with world quests. True, a weekly cap and less world quests is a plus, but the downside is that BlizZard has designed a game where you spend more time traveling to a few tedious world quests. Also, the lack of no info for part 1 of flying is a big red flag. However, with how disconnected the zones are it is clear that there isn't a solid plan of how flying will be allowed in the upcoming expansion. The worst has to be the MAW though as not even ground mounts are allowed in there and it is required to be in there for progression which feels bad IMVHO.

    4. Lack of player agency in general is something that has plagued WoW the last few expansions but is very noticeable with the upcoming expansion. At Blizzcon BlizZard said they wanted to return player agency but I don't see it that way with covenant locking, no info on part 1 of flying, torghast not being the roguelike experience as sold at blizzcon, etc.

    Classes still feel bad with the GCD and it will be more noticeable with the active covenant abilities. In short there are many problems with shadowlands and time is running out.

    Can they fix these issues? Sure.

    But they have to start to listen to feedback from players on the PTR and beta forums. That is how BFA went down the tubes because they ignored the feedback from players and rushed BFA out.

    Lets hope that does not happen with the upcoming expansion.
    You forgot a big 'in my opinion'.Covenants being a fixed choice is the only annoying thing, rest is just blowing things out of proportion.

  20. #20
    Warchief Beet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    The problem Shadowlands faces is it will soon become 'the current expansion'.

    And MMO-C has shown us that 'the current expansion' is always terrible, the worse, absolute garbage etc.

    Nothing new here.
    Probably because it’s often true. Although Legion wasn’t despised this way. Some people were unhappy with some things which is always the case but it wasn’t seen as worst ever at all. I think WoD and now BFA will always take that cake.

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