Marksmanship is severely focus starved on beta.

[Kaver]

I don't think they are being stubborn.

Blizzard are often very stubborn. A recent example is the GCD changes. We told Blizzard 2½ years ago that some of the GCD changes felt really bad. We told Blizzard this during the BFA beta. They got a lot of feedback about this from thousands of players. But it still took them 2½ years to make the change. Why took it so long? Because they are stubborn. Having simple burst CDs on the GCD feels bad today and it felt bad 2½ years ago. There is no reasonable explanation for not changing it back then except Blizzard being stubborn.

[Bepples]

One of the major problems is they aren't even keeping track of their own changes. They nerfed MM's focus efficiency due to the BFA Master Marksman talent. Let's skip over the toxic design approach of nerfing the baseline class due to an optional talent for a moment. In the very same update to MM in which they stated that the Master Marksman talent made MM too focus-efficient, they upped our focus costs while also reworking Master Marksman into something that has nothing to do with focus (not to mention it had already been changed at the start of alpha).

What they should do is revert the focus cost increase of Aimed Shot, then make Precise Shot fixed to 1 charge while also incorporating the BFA Master Marksmanship into it. Then they can work from there, and if MM is still apparently focus starved they should up Rapid Fire's focus regeneration to 2 focus per shot.

If anyone thinks the current situation is tenable, go onto the PTR and try out Trueshot. The cooldown is utterly worthless now because you simply don't have the focus to make use of all the extra Aimed Shot charges you're getting.

Ive mained a Hunter in one form or another since Vanilla, when you couldn't use a pet in Molten Core because Pet AI was so horrible, so I know all about the plight of the WoW Hunter. For the past several expansions, BM has been in a good place, MM has been lacking and Surv was almost non existent. The chances of Blizzard making 3 solid specs for one class is Zero.
If you are just not happy with how the class plays and expect them to rebuild it.. lol good luck. I actually enjoy MM on PTR.
You would be better off finding a different class and/or not playing.

You're getting dogpiled by everyone here and I'd like to join in on account of the ridiculousness of your posts. Denying and spin-doctoring away critical issues with MM's flow does not help the spec like you apparently think it does. Neither does "it's always been bad so nothing's changed", and "if you don't like it play something else". I'm not sure why you're so adamant that they don't fix Marksmanship's issues and I doubt I'll get a clear answer from you since you've basically spent the entire thread trying and failing to be manipulative.

Takes 6 seconds to summon a pet now. Seems pretty crippling.

Major correction here: summoning a pet is instant. It was going to take 6 seconds to revive a pet. This has been reduced to 4 seconds (still too much; it should remain at 2 seconds like BFA).

[Krimzin]

You're getting dogpiled by everyone here and I'd like to join in on account of the ridiculousness of your posts. Denying and spin-doctoring away critical issues with MM's flow does not help the spec like you apparently think it does. Neither does "it's always been bad so nothing's changed", and "if you don't like it play something else". I'm not sure why you're so adamant that they don't fix Marksmanship's issues and I doubt I'll get a clear answer from you since you've basically spent the entire thread trying and failing to be manipulative.
Major correction here: summoning a pet is instant. It was going to take 6 seconds to revive a pet. This has been reduced to 4 seconds (still too much; it should remain at 2 seconds like BFA).

This site is about opinions. Period. Unless you are a developer who has the ability and willingness to change a class it then both your opinion and my opinion mean absolutely dick.
With that said, I stand by my opinion because its just that, mine.
I've played with MM on PTR and Im enjoying it immensely. Everyone always wants to tell someone how a class should feel, ever thought that how you think it should feel is wrong? Not saying it is, but Im good with MM how is it and believe that with gear its going to be an extremely fun class to play. If it turns out I'm wrong and others are right, then I just play BM. I dont expect Blizzard to change it, because if they change someone because someone thinks they should, where does it end? It doesn't. When people get their way because they bitch enough about something, it sets a horrible precedent and reinforces bad behavior. When you allow a mob to dictate how things are done, it introduces anarchy. I like MM and will play it how it is. Sorry others don't feel the same.

[Sondrelk]

This site is about opinions. Period. Unless you are a developer who has the ability and willingness to change a class it then both your opinion and my opinion mean absolutely dick.
With that said, I stand by my opinion because its just that, mine.
I've played with MM on PTR and Im enjoying it immensely. Everyone always wants to tell someone how a class should feel, ever thought that how you think it should feel is wrong? Not saying it is, but Im good with MM how is it and believe that with gear its going to be an extremely fun class to play. If it turns out I'm wrong and others are right, then I just play BM. I dont expect Blizzard to change it, because if they change someone because someone thinks they should, where does it end? It doesn't. When people get their way because they bitch enough about something, it sets a horrible precedent and reinforces bad behavior. When you allow a mob to dictate how things are done, it introduces anarchy. I like MM and will play it how it is. Sorry others don't feel the same.

Have you tried playing MM on the PTR with mythic gear? You have all the stats you could want and azerite traits and essences which will be mostly copied over to Shadowlands as conduits and legendaries, and the rotation still flows like bricks.
Using Precise Shots means you are too focus starved to use Aimed shot on cooldown, using Steady Shot is a clear DPS loss in all situations, rendering the talents buffing it moot. Trueshot also leaves you focus starved, rendering those talents pointless. There is no focus or time in your rotation to fit in potentially interesting talents like Serpent Sting or Dead Aim, meaning those talents are dead as well.

Half our talents are dead picks, and the few that remain do not do much more than slightly increase damage for the few abilities we do use.

But the biggest sin of MM at the moment is that the spec simply doesnt have anything to build around. Other classes has a defining moment of gameplay that talent choices and gearing serves to bolster in some way, either by making achieving it easier or increasing the skillcap for higher damage.
MM does not have that, there isnt anything in the rotation that we are supposed to build toward. There used to be in Uldir with the Machine gun build, it wasnt much, but at lest there was a definite sense that your rotation was centered around buffing your Aimed Shot for massive damage. At the moment the most defining core ability the spec has is getting RNG procs to reset the cooldown on Rapid Fire.

- - - Updated - - -

If anyone thinks the current situation is tenable, go onto the PTR and try out Trueshot. The cooldown is utterly worthless now because you simply don't have the focus to make use of all the extra Aimed Shot charges you're getting.

This is the one thing that really makes me think the MM devs have designed the spec completely wrong seeing as there is a legendary to reduce focus costs during Trueshot in Shadowlands.
Talents and legendaries should make you better at a niche area of gameplay, not fix an ability.

Trueshot should always be a moment of glory where you use several powerful shots in succession, and the legendary should be something like making your precise shots during Trueshot be instantly fired as wind arrows or something.

[turboether]

On track for another 'geez, BM is boring, but at least it works' expansion.

[Sondrelk]

On track for another 'geez, BM is boring, but at least it works' expansion.

Still going to play MM though, every time I try to play BM I stop caring.
Might try to transition into Survival if it ends up somewhat decent.

[KrayZ33]

I know a lot of people didn't like it.

But MM's Sidewinder talent is how most of the talents should work, but sadly do not.

It changed the way how the spec was played, it came at a cost, it did benefit a very specific playstyle and it was still very competitive (and strictly better in spread-aoe cleave situations) even after they buffed the "standard"-non Sidewinder build and made that one more than just viable.
That's how talents should define your spec/build.

P.S. I want Legion-MM back I still have some random shadowplay moments on my PC where I hit the record button on accident and it looks so awesome.


The current/BFA MM version can't compete in the slightest.

[Jamais]

I know a lot of people didn't like it.

But MM's Sidewinder talent is how most of the talents should work, but sadly do not.

It changed the way how the spec was played, it came at a cost, it did benefit a very specific playstyle and it was still very competitive (and strictly better in spread-aoe cleave situations) even after they buffed the "standard"-non Sidewinder build and made that one more than just viable.
That's how talents should define your spec/build.

P.S. I want Legion-MM back I still have some random shadowplay moments on my PC where I hit the record button on accident and it looks so awesome.


The current/BFA MM version can't compete in the slightest.

Sidewinders was horrible. Legion MM was horrible. The artifact weapon and theme of the spec were OK, but the execution was awkward.

You had to stand still more then in BfA, Marked Shot would get buggy if your target died (so you had a proc light up, but no target available, it was especially annoying on AoE).

Not gonna go into BfA MM design (i liked it, but many don't), but the reason why MM was changed so much in the first place was because the feedback on the spec was a resounding dislike.

The best thing about Legion MM was doing billions of dmg on large scale bgs, i'll give you that.

[Aleksej89]

Personally i miss the MOP class-design era, i liked that one the most.
Had hopes for class design changes in SLands but..... i dunno what will happen.

It releases kinda soon and a lot of classes/specs are talked about in a negative way.
Recently for Shamans blizzard said something along the lines of "we tried removing Maelstrom resource and reworking the class but it did not work out so we just reverted to the BFA design" - which is passionately hated by many shamans.

[Jamais]

Personally i miss the MOP class-design era, i liked that one the most.
Had hopes for class design changes in SLands but..... i dunno what will happen.

It releases kinda soon and a lot of classes/specs are talked about in a negative way.
Recently for Shamans blizzard said something along the lines of "we tried removing Maelstrom resource and reworking the class but it did not work out so we just reverted to the BFA design" - which is passionately hated by many shamans.

Ugh, it's you...on hunter forums...always a displeasure to see you.

About the shaman BfA design, i would like a proof of that ''passionate hate''. Unless you mean the current top single build, which is lightning spam - that i can understand.

I played shaman for 10 years, and BfA version of the toolkit is the most complete, viable version of ele - it actually felt like an elementalist, instead of LvB and CL spambot.

And Lightning Lasso is already an iconic spell.

Yes, some shamans would probably go back to the days where you could just spam LvB procs and spam 1 button for aoe (the favoured MoP design), but thankfully, that will never happen.

Passionate hate, lmao

p.s. Legion actually takes the top spot about ele being dumb, i stopped playing it mid Legion, since my pvp consisted on spreading the f out of flame shock, spamming LvBursts and never having to cast anything but SK and occasional Healing Surge.

I did mourn the loss of Gust of Wind, but BfA ele is much tankier then before, which made up for it.

You see, if something was op by design, no matter the numbers, it can get boring.

[Sondrelk]

I honestly really want the devs to take another crack at the WoD style of MM, it was fast paced, had a defined niche and could be 100% mobile while still heavily favoring standing still.
At most they just needed another pass at talents to make it more varied and change the mastery to not be as restrictive with the movement.

- - - Updated - - -

I have said it before, and it bears repeating. The biggest sin of MM at the moment is that it doesnt have anything you can point to as the "core" of the rotation. There isnt anything like Fire Mage crits into Pyroblast, or WW monk combo master that lends itself to expanding with talents.

What MM really needs is for the devs to sit down and ask themselves what the goal of the rotation should be. It doesnt need to be fancy, but there needs to be some meat to the potatoes of mindlessly firing off whatever.

[Jamais]

I honestly really want the devs to take another crack at the WoD style of MM, it was fast paced, had a defined niche and could be 100% mobile while still heavily favoring standing still.
At most they just needed another pass at talents to make it more varied and change the mastery to not be as restrictive with the movement.

- - - Updated - - -

I have said it before, and it bears repeating. The biggest sin of MM at the moment is that it doesnt have anything you can point to as the "core" of the rotation. There isnt anything like Fire Mage crits into Pyroblast, or WW monk combo master that lends itself to expanding with talents.

What MM really needs is for the devs to sit down and ask themselves what the goal of the rotation should be. It doesnt need to be fancy, but there needs to be some meat to the potatoes of mindlessly firing off whatever.

I would prefer for them to just smooth out the focus regen and MAYBE make trick shots work on 2 targets.

I actually like having to stand still to cast those Aimed Shot, it feels like a proper marksman, and imho, it gives the spec a certain dose of elegance and finesse.

Apart from the concept of a hunter being ranged and giving command to your pet, the ''spastic'' always-on-the move playstyle of BM is the reason why i can't stomach that spec, even now in BfA, where it is super OP thanks to stat scaling and corruptions.

[Sondrelk]

I would prefer for them to just smooth out the focus regen and MAYBE make trick shots work on 2 targets.

I actually like having to stand still to cast those Aimed Shot, it feels like a proper marksman, and imho, it gives the spec a certain dose of elegance and finesse.

Apart from the concept of a hunter being ranged and giving command to your pet, the ''spastic'' always-on-the move playstyle of BM is the reason why i can't stomach that spec, even now in BfA, where it is super OP thanks to stat scaling and corruptions.

Fully agree on the Aimed Shot in theory, the problem is that currently the ability doesnt really feel like it is worthy of being held on such a pedestal.

Though even with that, on the whole I think I still prefer the WoD approach of everything being fully mobile, but giving you a significant boost to damage if you stand still. I feel that was a system that rewarded knowing when to move and when not to, without overly punishing players who still hasnt completely learnt the ropes.

[Jamais]

What MM really needs is for the devs to sit down and ask themselves what the goal of the rotation should be. It doesnt need to be fancy, but there needs to be some meat to the potatoes of mindlessly firing off whatever.

Our core is AiS. But i understand what you are saying, i just don't think every spec has to operate on that premise.

The point of the rotation is focus management, not capping on charges and planning the best of your movement. I would say now in late BfA, one of the points was also the cd reduction and proper usage of Trueshot as much as possible, thanks to talent and VoP minor.

Honestly, i repeat, with the focus fix, you would have a solid, well rounded spec. I would even say, together with all the extra buttons, that MM is a bit bloated atm.

[Sondrelk]

Our core is AiS. But i understand what you are saying, i just don't think every spec has to operate on that premise.

The point of the rotation is focus management, not capping on charges and planning the best of your movement. I would say now in late BfA, one of the points was also the cd reduction and proper usage of Trueshot as much as possible, thanks to talent and VoP minor.

Honestly, i repeat, with the focus fix, you would have a solid, well rounded spec. I would even say, together with all the extra buttons, that MM is a bit bloated atm.

Not to say there needs to be a massive flowchart of complexity or some jigsaw puzzle of rotations, but there needs to be something you can point to and say "Our class is about X". Firing off Aimed Shots is not really that complex at the moment, it costs a bit and you cannot always use it, but it isnt like Rampage for Fury Warriors where the entire rotation is about getting as much rage as possible to fire off as many rampages as possible.

Uldir had a semblance of a core rotation where the abilities you used led up to a really impressive 100k guaranteed crit AiS, it wasnt that complicated but there was something you could point to as the core of the rotation.

I pointed out above that for my money, an ideal spec should have an easily understandable core and talents that either make achieving that easier, or increase damage but make it harder.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess on the whole my point about saying that the core of MM is AiS is that the ability is neither that difficult to pull off, nor is the rotation or talent set up in such a way to actually emphasize the Aimed Shot.

[dcc626]

On track for another 'geez, BM is boring, but at least it works' expansion.

yeah. except the part where its not great on the beta. damage is meh.

[DeiVias]

MM feels fine on beta, just needs a bit of help in the regen department.

I'd love Trick Shots to work on 2 targets but considering how insane our AOE burst is i'm not expecting it, gotta give up something.

[Neforpubl]

MM feels fine on beta, just needs a bit of help in the regen department.

That's literally why the OP said it feels focus starved.

[The Butt Witch]

Hunters who mistakenly choose Venthyr because "zomg, flayed shot is so OP!!!!!ONEONE" are going to find themselves very focus starved, which is why Necrolords is the superior choice.

[Sondrelk]

Hunters who mistakenly choose Venthyr because "zomg, flayed shot is so OP!!!!!ONEONE" are going to find themselves very focus starved, which is why Necrolords is the superior choice.

Hopefully Venthyr will be why Blizzard will at least give a small revamp to the spec in 9.1 or something. They will quickly realize that there is no way to tune Flayed Shot in a way that does not invalidate the conduit powers that buff arcane shot. Nor is there a way to buff that conduit in a way that will organically make players use it.

MM really is simply broken at the moment. We are at a perverse version of the spec where higher haste means you use less abilities, the only way they could make players want the arcane shot buff conduits would be if they made it so powerful it outscales Aimed Shot.

- - - Updated - - -

In 8.1 Blizzard nerfed the Machine Gun build because it was a degenerate playstyle, and there is no way the current version of MM won't lead to a similar issue where abilities are simply not used at all.