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  1. #1

    Playing the long con, infiltrating the police.

    French journalist writes a book exposing institutional racism and rampant police violence after undergoing the full process of joining the police and becoming a patrol officer.

    Two weeks into his patrol job he is pressured into signing a false report to cover up a police beating.

    And this is France. Policing in France can be pretty rough by European standards, but still.

    And for nuance sake also highlights how the police is woefully underfunded, undertrained, understaffed at command level with poor equipment and terrible facilities leading to a hostile work environment where a minority of bullies run the show and commit most of the violence, causing rampant depression among the force and a huge spike of cops committing suicide.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...lentin-gendrot
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  2. #2
    Well you know what they say.... Defund the police.
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  3. #3
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorensen View Post
    Well you know what they say.... Defund the police.
    Leaders can't do that to any significant extent though because then they would get blamed when crime goes up after the defunding.
    -------
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorensen View Post
    Well you know what they say.... Defund the police.
    I truly wonder how that would fix this:

    how badly trained and paid police recruits are
    officers were often snowed under with form-filling and random “targets”, worked in decrepit offices, drove battered cars and often had to buy essential equipment from their own pockets, leading to high levels of depression.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorensen View Post
    Well you know what they say.... Defund the police.
    American law enforcement is over funded in specific areas (military hardware) and is soaking up so much funding because every other service is underfunded.

    Which seems to be the issue in France too actually.

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/r...icy-in-france/

    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    I truly wonder how that would fix this:
    In France specifically one of the problems they have is social exclusion of minorities. Better social integration programs might help with that.

    France is one of those weird states where they don't believe in multiculturalism institutionally, which means massive segments of the population go unintegrated because society simultaneously deems them not French enough, but also pretends that everyone is equally French.

    Admitting they have a problem in the first place and actually creating programs meant to deal with that might reduce the existing pressures on law enforcement.

    It's just like the problem with police suicides and mismanagement. Half of the society pretends the problem doesn't exist, the other half hates the cops because they are institutionally flawed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    French journalist writes a book exposing institutional racism and rampant police violence after undergoing the full process of joining the police and becoming a patrol officer.

    Two weeks into his patrol job he is pressured into signing a false report to cover up a police beating.

    And this is France. Policing in France can be pretty rough by European standards, but still.

    And for nuance sake also highlights how the police is woefully underfunded, undertrained, understaffed at command level with poor equipment and terrible facilities leading to a hostile work environment where a minority of bullies run the show and commit most of the violence, causing rampant depression among the force and a huge spike of cops committing suicide.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...lentin-gendrot
    Yeah it's a complex problem, you get exposed to corruption pretty early on, and if you lodge complaints against it you are pretty much giving up your career before it even begins.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    I truly wonder how that would fix this:
    Well... I'm sure you already know this, but defunding the police doesn't mean cutting their pay, it means cutting the duties they're expected to respond to, which in turn reduces the workload and resources they have to purchase so they're able to concentrate their funds on stuff that matters.... like recruits, offices, cars, and equipment.

    I mean, none of this is going to deal with corruption though, which is what the guy reported on in his first few weeks. Corruption doesn't have to mean taking bribes from drug dealers, sometimes its just leaving stuff out of a report because you want to get out of work on time so your boss doesn't yell at you. Any workplace is going to have a certain amount of that, it just becomes more difficult to deal with when its your life on the line if your coworkers aren't 100% behind you.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Halicia View Post
    Well... I'm sure you already know this, but defunding the police doesn't mean cutting their pay, it means cutting the duties they're expected to respond to, which in turn reduces the workload and resources they have to purchase so they're able to concentrate their funds on stuff that matters.... like recruits, offices, cars, and equipment.

    I mean, none of this is going to deal with corruption though, which is what the guy reported on in his first few weeks. Corruption doesn't have to mean taking bribes from drug dealers, sometimes its just leaving stuff out of a report because you want to get out of work on time so your boss doesn't yell at you. Any workplace is going to have a certain amount of that, it just becomes more difficult to deal with when its your life on the line if your coworkers aren't 100% behind you.
    I know that words are supposed to have a meaning and that people really, really should choose a better word instead of "defunding".
    Additionaly, I am sure that neither you nor me nor most other people actually have any idea how much would be saved by cutting those other duties or what those other duties even are to be able to guess whether it would free up enough funding (hah) to increase pay and provide normal equipment.
    Something tells me that raising pay accross the whole police force and replacing their old crap would be much more expensive than what would be saved by having cops not respond to every situation and instead have more appropriate people for them, like medics and mental health specialists (again, here we have to ask whether cops in France actually do that, can someone from France shine a light on this?).
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    I know that words are supposed to have a meaning and that people really, really should choose a better word instead of "defunding".
    Additionaly, I am sure that neither you nor me nor most other people actually have any idea how much would be saved by cutting those other duties or what those other duties even are to be able to guess whether it would free up enough funding (hah) to increase pay and provide normal equipment.
    Something tells me that raising pay accross the whole police force and replacing their old crap would be much more expensive than what would be saved by having cops not respond to every situation and instead have more appropriate people for them, like medics and mental health specialists (again, here we have to ask whether cops in France actually do that, can someone from France shine a light on this?).
    https://www.france24.com/en/20200116...ts-to-problems

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/w...d-reforms.html

    The problems with French police seem to political and seem to go much further back.

    The state doesn't seem to trust the police much but it is also dependent on it so the police seem to be institutionally broken with no clear political means for reforming them.

    Mismanagement and corruption are endemic too, couple this with the complete failure of social programs in reaching huge segments of the population (as I mentioned in a previous reply) and it's how France ended up with the police it has.

    It doesn't specifically seem to be a funding problem, but structural both with the welfare system (which also ties into many months of intense protests) and law enforcement (the police were strained by the intensity of the protests).

    Frankly the more I read about this the more obvious and notable the parallels become to the situation in the US.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  10. #10
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    I know that words are supposed to have a meaning and that people really, really should choose a better word instead of "defunding".
    Unfortunately it is the slogan we have even if it's not the slogan we want.

    Ultimately, it's the harshest slogan available without getting stronger words like "eliminate" the police or "abolish" (like Abolish ICE). And the less-strong alternatives are like "reevaluate the duties of police" or "train the police better"(something we've tried a lot in the past and doesn't seem to be working) and frankly just so weak as to be more political bullshit that ends up doing nothing.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Leaders can't do that to any significant extent though because then they would get blamed when crime goes up after the defunding.
    I eager awaits to see how police will be in Portland in a years time if they do reduce their funding by a lot, and see how crime statistics turns out to be
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    I eager awaits to see how police will be in Portland in a years time if they do reduce their funding by a lot, and see how crime statistics turns out to be
    https://www.theonion.com/officials-w...-in-1844149047

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halicia View Post
    Well... I'm sure you already know this, but defunding the police doesn't mean cutting their pay, it means cutting the duties they're expected to respond to, which in turn reduces the workload and resources they have to purchase so they're able to concentrate their funds on stuff that matters.... like recruits, offices, cars, and equipment.

    I mean, none of this is going to deal with corruption though, which is what the guy reported on in his first few weeks. Corruption doesn't have to mean taking bribes from drug dealers, sometimes its just leaving stuff out of a report because you want to get out of work on time so your boss doesn't yell at you. Any workplace is going to have a certain amount of that, it just becomes more difficult to deal with when its your life on the line if your coworkers aren't 100% behind you.
    Hear me out here. Maybe pick an option that doesn't sound like "we're taking the cops off the streets so the criminals feel safer!" optics: They make or break your movement.

    Refine the police(Imply you're making them even better), Specialize the police(Since they do love their spec ops equipment and titles) Assist the police(sounds positive, and isn't lying since you're lightening their load)
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    https://www.france24.com/en/20200116...ts-to-problems

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/w...d-reforms.html

    The problems with French police seem to political and seem to go much further back.

    The state doesn't seem to trust the police much but it is also dependent on it so the police seem to be institutionally broken with no clear political means for reforming them.

    Mismanagement and corruption are endemic too, couple this with the complete failure of social programs in reaching huge segments of the population (as I mentioned in a previous reply) and it's how France ended up with the police it has.

    It doesn't specifically seem to be a funding problem, but structural both with the welfare system (which also ties into many months of intense protests) and law enforcement (the police were strained by the intensity of the protests).

    Frankly the more I read about this the more obvious and notable the parallels become to the situation in the US.
    Thanks, though the articles do not provide any details about exact numbers of what costs what, as I said, there are probably very few people who actually could calculate what costs what.
    Some similarities with USA can be noted (well, humans are the same everywhere). Groups of humans sharing common interests, so police in this case, are usually not tolerant of someone putting them in reins. Ever seen high level doctor fired easily for mismanaging patient, including said patient dying? Whole hospital usually does the same blah blah police in USA does, with same, ehh, arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    Unfortunately it is the slogan we have even if it's not the slogan we want.

    Ultimately, it's the harshest slogan available without getting stronger words like "eliminate" the police or "abolish" (like Abolish ICE). And the less-strong alternatives are like "reevaluate the duties of police" or "train the police better"(something we've tried a lot in the past and doesn't seem to be working) and frankly just so weak as to be more political bullshit that ends up doing nothing.
    Has USA actually tried to train the police better? :/ I mean, couple of hours into additional sensitivity training technically counts as training, sure, yet it doesnt change the fact that cops get the badge and gun after just a few months, unlike in, again, most of Europe, where it usually takes something like 2 years. You can't train someone in knowing law, gun handling, basic human psychology, day to day tasks, etc. in just 5-6 months.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Has USA actually tried to train the police better? :/ I mean, couple of hours into additional sensitivity training technically counts as training, sure, yet it doesnt change the fact that cops get the badge and gun after just a few months, unlike in, again, most of Europe, where it usually takes something like 2 years. You can't train someone in knowing law, gun handling, basic human psychology, day to day tasks, etc. in just 5-6 months.
    I don't know what has or hasn't been done, if anything, I just know "the police need better training" is a slogan that's been used for decades.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Leaders can't do that to any significant extent though because then they would get blamed when crime goes up after the defunding.
    Hypothetically, what if crime decreased?
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  17. #17
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Hypothetically, what if crime decreased?
    I mean, there was that time in New York....
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    "That's my style; I like to kick 'em when they're down!"
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  18. #18
    he went in looking for something and he found it. what i see is confirmation bias.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Thanks, though the articles do not provide any details about exact numbers of what costs what, as I said, there are probably very few people who actually could calculate what costs what.
    Some similarities with USA can be noted (well, humans are the same everywhere). Groups of humans sharing common interests, so police in this case, are usually not tolerant of someone putting them in reins. Ever seen high level doctor fired easily for mismanaging patient, including said patient dying? Whole hospital usually does the same blah blah police in USA does, with same, ehh, arguments.
    It's easy to see that They don't have the same experience as You, so They can't judge You because They just don't understand. Pretty standard for every group really. Doctors have tough jobs, but how can you judge when someone dies if it was fault or they did everything or blah blah blah. Teachers have it hard, but then most of my teachers growing up sucked, but how can I judge not having lived their experience? Flipside of course is that most outsiders don't bother actually learning the basics of what they're judging before rendering opinions that are meaningless and breed resentment.

    Has USA actually tried to train the police better? :/ I mean, couple of hours into additional sensitivity training technically counts as training, sure, yet it doesnt change the fact that cops get the badge and gun after just a few months, unlike in, again, most of Europe, where it usually takes something like 2 years. You can't train someone in knowing law, gun handling, basic human psychology, day to day tasks, etc. in just 5-6 months.
    One of the main things that non-Americans (and most Americans) don't get, is that the USA doesn't control most of the things in life. For instance, a city has it's police force, the chief is hired by the mayor or city council, and policy is set from there down. Of course, the city also sets the police budget, so saying you want body cameras while providing no money, for example, doesn't actually help. Above the city, you may have a county police force, and for example my county police force is run by an elected Sheriff. There are also state police run by the Governor. Also, Federal Police, but they really only get involved in federal crimes or such.

    So if you want your local police to be trained as paramedics or want to have a variant responder that is unarmed (for example we have police aides for traffic accidents) that can respond to crazies that need de-escalation rather than handcuffs, you address those concerns to the Mayor who makes sure the Police Chief institutes those standards, and you give them the money to accomplish such goals. You also of course have to deal with the Unions, whose sole purpose is to protect their clients (the police officers).

    But, people don't want to pay for all that, and their attention is fleeting. Sure someone might protest the rare instance of police misconduct when it makes the news, but they'll forget it soon enough and complain if their taxes get raised or if they have to wait too long after a traffic accident for someone to make a report or a billion other things.

    Either way, the standards for hiring police vary a lot between cities/counties and such. While it's true that training might not be as long as you'd like, it's also the case that many major cities require various college qualifications before hiring, so it's not as cut and dry as "they aren't trained", for the USA.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Thanks, though the articles do not provide any details about exact numbers of what costs what, as I said, there are probably very few people who actually could calculate what costs what
    .

    It's hard to find specific numbers in English, and my French is not quite good enough to be able to browse through sources.

    France is ultimately a welfare state with relatively high social spending, although the bulk of it seems to be taken up by pensions and healthcare and another significant portion being unemployment benefits.

    All the various schemes seem to have major efficiency problems. It seems to be a strange catch 22 where governments are elected on the specific promise to finally reform the system (like Macron, Hollande, Sarkozy, they all promised institutional reform), but as soon as they go about implementing their electoral promises their support collapses and they are unable to actually do anything.

    Everyone agrees that the pension system is over bloated, over complicated, too fragmented. But nobody wants to change anything.

    Everyone agrees that racism is a real and pervasive social problem in France, but everyone pretends that there's no institutional racism in France.

    Everyone agrees that welfare system seemingly cannot reach the most vulnerable areas, but everyone pretends those areas don't exist.

    Everyone pretends the police is an untouchable holy institution, while everyone pretends that the corruption, excessive use of force and suicides aren't happening.

    It's quite idiosyncratic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

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