Will Blizzard nerf your "meaningful choice"?

[Deckzor]

I have to say, i switched camps.

I mainly do M+ and do CE Raid to get my gear for M+.

So my concern was that if the disperity is like 20% and i have to decide in which content i want that 20% boost thats just bad design and i hated the idea.

However the latest sims showing that at least narrowing the disperity is possible to a degree which is okish in covenant abilities. After like 4 weeks i have my bis legendary for ST and for AOE also.

I still think switching conduits should be without timegating so you can run different builds after some grinding time.

Maybe Players also wanna PVP have still some issues but at least for me although i am super sceptical think it doesnt look that bad.

[ihate2beapessimist]

You wont even know whats the best until you are knee deep into the expac and gearing your character,
If you really are into the game then you know that this shit really doesn't matter like you all exaggerate it to.
Its literally just going to give you more reason to spend more time on the game.

[Baconeggcheese]

Maybe Players also wanna PVP have still some issues but at least for me although i am super sceptical think it doesnt look that bad.

That's kind of the worst bit, there's such a wide range of how much this matters depending on class and spec. There are some classes where you have different BiS covenants for raiding, M+, pvp and they're different for each spec. Then there's other classes where you have 1 BiS covenant for all content in all specs.

And even if you end up in the latter case, you have to hope blizz doesn't up and decide they're not ok with that (given that it does undermine the system as they want it designed) and make some large sweeping changes as they're prone to do. Remember how they told players they wouldn't mess with legendaries at the start of legion and then they absolutely messed with legiondaries heavily at the start of legion?

At the end of the day this frankly seems like a less bad version of what we started with in legion... but that isn't a positive thing. Its just less bad, which isn't what they should be inspiring.

Its so odd to me that peoples best defense of this system is that it won't matter or won't be that bad, as opposed to designing a system that people are excited for.

[Rageonit]

Its so odd to me that peoples best defense of this system is that it won't matter or won't be that bad, as opposed to designing a system that people are excited for.

Much more was said, only you refuse to listen, too engaged in your academic number disputes.
I for one applaud Blizzard for trying to introduce some class diversity to the game. Not being as bright as you are, I don't know if they will succeed or fail, but I'd rather have them try & fail than go for the safe approach, because portion of the playerbase is so obsessed with numbers.

[Gaidax]

1: A 5-10% difference is huge

For you and me...

But you and me are not exactly the core audience in WoW, despite how much we like to think it. That's the gap I'm trying to fill for you.

Covenant system is not necessarily tailored for you and me, I already told you - my perfect WoW is literally no BS raidlogging - WoD pinnacle of existence, but that failed as a game overall.

I'll dare say that 70% of WoW pop don't give a rat's ass about 5-10%, they don't even know what WCL is. Then you can add another 15% of pop that supposedly care, but fail on mechanical level so hard that their care is pointless to begin with. So just let them be their teleporting fox in a pod, why not.

Here let me ask you this, if based on your stance it doesn't matter to the entire player base outside of bleeding edge players, and bleeding edge players will just play whatever is the most optimal... then what is the benefit or the "greater good" you were talking about by designing the system in this way?

People get to add a spash of their own color to their class/spec choice in appearance, allegiance and gameplay. Which is the whole point of this system.

They wanted to remake Legion artifacts without wasting time with 36*5 weapon skins, 36 acquisition quests and 12 class campaigns and us being stuck in another 12 months of nothing.

They basically remade artifact system, reusing a lot of systems already existing and slapped a choice on top of it, so unlike Legion people at least would have some control over what they get.

/shrug

[Katchii]

Player power is just as important to your average normal / heroic raider as it is your mythic raider. Especially so because "they blow balls performance-wise" and because of that they need every bit of passive power increases as they can get. Getting even 5% more throughput from every player across your raid for free is a massive deal to an average guilds ability to clear content.

As one of those average/normal players, no it really isn't.

Seeing your character grow in power is definitely important, but that's an entirely different thing to having player power be the ONLY thing you care enough about to where it shapes your entire decision making process.

And even when it doesn't matter... do you think they don't care? Take a look at classic, you barely need anything to clear that content. Its trivial, basically like doing organized LFR, and yet your average guild is still making damned sure they have those world buffs and those consumables... and they still struggle with 15 year old content... now imagine if they didn't even have that.

I played Classic for a while and raided up through BWL. Guilds make "damn sure" they get those world buffs because they're easy to get (there's a schedule on Discord for each server for when they drop, so all you have to do is be in Org or Stormwind at that time and BOOM.....so there's really no reason not to get them if you know you're going to raid) and they provide a benefit. That's it.

For some fights, those consumables make or break your ability to do it. Like Barron Geddon or Ragnaros and the dragons in BWL, unless you have massive amounts of Fire Resist gear (which the vast majority of people don't have because it's a pain in the ass and time consuming to get) not having a fire resist potion means you're completely worthless because you're dead in 10 seconds.

The stat potions are heavily encourage and only "mandatory" in super try hard guilds. The casual guild I was in didn't require them at all, because that would completely prohibit most players from raiding, because those potions are prohibitively expensive for the average player who can't spend hours a day farming.

Its nonsense that player power only matters to top players and your average player doesn't care. Me and you can get away with playing destruction through an entire xpac even when its not the best spec *because* we both are and are playing with above average players. Average players don't get those luxuries.

It's not that it doesn't matter, it's that it isn't the sole decision maker for what spec/talent build to use.

Average players absolutely get those luxuries, because the average player is completely capable of clearing average content. Which includes Normal raids. Being a top performing player using a top performing spec that chooses the top performing talents is not a requirement for clearing most content. It's only a "requirement" because players enforce this notion that only the top performers are worth anything and the rest are trash, which is ridiculous.

[Fkiolaris]

Much more was said, only you refuse to listen, too engaged in your wishful thinking, alternative reality disputes.
.

There, I fixed it for you. See how it can work both ways?

[Rageonit]

There, I fixed it for you. See how it can work both ways?

Blizzard trying to introduce (reintroduce?) some class diversity isn't any alternative reality - it will be your reality come SL. Whether it's only wishful thinking on their part remains to be seen - like I already said, I don't know. But I applaud them for trying, because I know, contrary to what @Baconeggcheese is claiming, that this system will have no real impact on normal or heroic raiding guilds. The whole picture he's painting is just a huge academic construct on shaky legs. This number crunching (using numbers from beta, and even past builds)... It doesn't work like that. There's a hidden assumption behind those numbers that it's a static situation: you have a raid, that raid wipes on 5%, covenants are to be blamed. But the game doesn't stop there, on that 5% wipe; the situation is dynamic. So even if covenants are to be blamed, next week, the same raid has both more experience & gear, and the boss dies, regardless of the covenants. That's the reality.

[Baconeggcheese]

For you and me...

For anyone doing any group content.

But you and me are not exactly the core audience in WoW, despite how much we like to think it. That's the gap I'm trying to fill for you.

I don't know where you got the impression I like to think that, because I very much do not. Its specifically why I enjoy coming to forums like these, because I get so many different perspectives and don't just sit in my community bubble which is often very disconnected from the average player.

Likewise I worked at a comic shop for around 8 years and I quite enjoyed hearing and getting to converse with the random people who would walk in and get to hear how they experience different games. Often times when I'd hear someone talk about games I also played like WoW it was like they were playing a completely different game than me.

So I'm not sure where your assumption here is coming from, but its not based on anything I've said.

Covenant system is not necessarily tailored for you and me, I already told you - my perfect WoW is literally no BS raidlogging - WoD pinnacle of existence, but that failed as a game overall.

Those really were the best of times, I think HFC might have been my favorite time in WoW.

But WoD's issue had nothing to do with permanence of choices or player power or choices for that matter in any way, shape, or form. They just made a dumb decision to put the entirety of the outdoor reward structure that used to go to dailies into a mission table that took 5 minutes for people to do.

I'll dare say that 70% of WoW pop don't give a rat's ass about 5-10%, they don't even know what WCL is. Then you can add another 15% of pop that supposedly care, but fail on mechanical level so hard that their care is pointless to begin with. So just let them be their teleporting fox in a pod, why not.

If we want to keep speaking for the entire playerbase, even so far as to bring up 70% of the community... you have to acknowledge that by far the largest group of wow players is in constant turn over and is likely not engaging in end game activities at all.

The majority of the wow playerbase is at some point in leveling, with a fraction hitting level cap on one character, and fractions of those participating in any given activity. Its why so many of the "majority of the player base" arguments are silly. Like there's probably 70%+ of the players who pick up a given expansion barely make it much past cap before dropping the game entirely... I'm not sure I want the game designed for them though.

People get to add a spash of their own color to their class/spec choice in appearance, allegiance and gameplay. Which is the whole point of this system.

This is the contention though, because you don't get to personalize much with the way this system is designed.

The argument is people want to be able to pick this covenant class ability and that covenant utility ability and yknow I really jive with this soul bind so I'm gonna pick this guy but I absolutely fuckin' love the look of that covenants set when I mix it with this other covenants bits oh and I think I prefer the sexy vampire party over making an abomination or any of the other choices and invest in helping this faction out etc etc.

But that's not the choice(s) presented to us. Instead everything is under one umbrella of a choice, and instead of getting to really personalize and customize so that I can have my own unique take if I so choose... instead I get to pick whatever choices are left out of what blizzard decided I have to choose under this umbrella that is going to end up having likely 1-2 things that make that choice despite all the rest. Player power being the biggest issue.

They wanted to remake Legion artifacts without wasting time with 36*5 weapon skins, 36 acquisition quests and 12 class campaigns and us being stuck in another 12 months of nothing.

They basically remade artifact system, reusing a lot of systems already existing and slapped a choice on top of it, so unlike Legion people at least would have some control over what they get.

/shrug

Its not so much that its artifacts, its that the entire intention of the class design shift they started in legion was to make it so they'd have these base classes that they'd then overlay supplemental systems on to give us something "new" every xpac without having to carry it over.

Artifacts were just one version of that, but the philosophy is consistent across all 3 xpacs now. And frankly there's nothing wrong with the idea, I just don't agree with how they're designing things to do it. The biggest of which is how they continue to think its a compelling choice to lock us into individual specs as if I don't want to play my entire class, and to make those specs have holes in them where I get to choose which holes to fill while leaving the other holes in instead of having a full coherent spec.

As one of those average/normal players, no it really isn't.

Seeing your character grow in power is definitely important, but that's an entirely different thing to having player power be the ONLY thing you care enough about to where it shapes your entire decision making process.

So 2 things there:

1: So you care about player power
2: I'm not sure where you got the impression that its the ONLY thing mythic players care about, cause it isn't and its not what I claimed in that post you quoted.

I haven't locked in my class yet for SL but I can tell you its going to be a Nightborne, even though for the classes at the top of my list right now nightborne basically doesn't have a racial. Why then as someone who raided in the top fraction of a percent am I going that?

I played Classic for a while and raided up through BWL. Guilds make "damn sure" they get those world buffs because they're easy to get (there's a schedule on Discord for each server for when they drop, so all you have to do is be in Org or Stormwind at that time and BOOM.....so there's really no reason not to get them if you know you're going to raid) and they provide a benefit. That's it.

For some fights, those consumables make or break your ability to do it. Like Barron Geddon or Ragnaros and the dragons in BWL, unless you have massive amounts of Fire Resist gear (which the vast majority of people don't have because it's a pain in the ass and time consuming to get) not having a fire resist potion means you're completely worthless because you're dead in 10 seconds.

The stat potions are heavily encourage and only "mandatory" in super try hard guilds. The casual guild I was in didn't require them at all, because that would completely prohibit most players from raiding, because those potions are prohibitively expensive for the average player who can't spend hours a day farming.

All this to say.. they care about player power.

It's not that it doesn't matter, it's that it isn't the sole decision maker for what spec/talent build to use.

Average players absolutely get those luxuries, because the average player is completely capable of clearing average content. Which includes Normal raids. Being a top performing player using a top performing spec that chooses the top performing talents is not a requirement for clearing most content. It's only a "requirement" because players enforce this notion that only the top performers are worth anything and the rest are trash, which is ridiculous.

That's the point though? The community at large pushes that perception which is exactly why this is contentious. That is to say this directly affects the average player because its the average player pushing this notion that everyone has to over gear and overpower every bit of content.

I can't tell you how many times someone asks what to play based on whats best and automatically assumes I'm a mega-casual because I tell them to genuinely play whatever they enjoy because even in cutting edge mythic progression we're still doing that.

[Katchii]

So 2 things there:

1: So you care about player power
2: I'm not sure where you got the impression that its the ONLY thing mythic players care about, cause it isn't and its not what I claimed in that post you quoted.

I haven't locked in my class yet for SL but I can tell you its going to be a Nightborne, even though for the classes at the top of my list right now nightborne basically doesn't have a racial. Why then as someone who raided in the top fraction of a percent am I going that?

I never said I didn't, I just said it's not as important to the average player (I can really only speak for myself here) as it is for the Mythic raider.

I assume you're completely comfortable choosing that race because race doesn't have enough of an impact player power to be an issue and is therefore a choice you can make for aesthetics without sacrificing power. Meaning, player power is something that isn't even considered or a variable in this equation.

What would be a better indicator is what Covenant are you going with and why? If the decision is made predominantly because of the power vs the aesthetics or game play then you care more about power than anything else.

All this to say.. they care about player power.

Because it's a simple decision and doesn't require them to change their overall play style or sacrifice anything of value to get.

And of course people care about player power, nowhere did I ever say they/we don't

In regards to the fire resist potions specifically, that's a pass/fail decision. The vast majority of content in WoW does not have pass/fail decisions when it comes to class and spec choice and whether you'll clear the content based on that decision. Despite what some people may say.

That's the point though? The community at large pushes that perception which is exactly why this is contentious. That is to say this directly affects the average player because its the average player pushing this notion that everyone has to over gear and overpower every bit of content.

I wouldn't say it's the average player. It's a vocal minority that seems to think they speak for the "average" player. Most players I encounter don't say anything.

I can't tell you how many times someone asks what to play based on whats best and automatically assumes I'm a mega-casual because I tell them to genuinely play whatever they enjoy because even in cutting edge mythic progression we're still doing that.

I advocate the same. Mainly because the entire purpose of the game is to have fun and enjoy yourself so if you're not enjoying yourself or having fun, what's the point?

[SirCowdog]

Pugs clear heroic on the first week, even on alliance. 4th week is one shot territory, if you even need anything from there at that point. That difficulty is really not something worth discussing.

You don't need to be 'optimal' to clear heroic or do a 15, in theory. But in reality, that's not how wow community works. If you want to have a chance to get invited to a group, you better make sure to be as optimal as possible - right class, spec, high ilvl, rio score, achievements.... and in shadowlands most likely the right covenant for the dungeon.

No matter how much the shitty roleplayers wish for it, the community is not going to change to accept bad choices. And your covenant choice is going to be a bad one for 3/4 of the dungeons. That's gonna work out amazing.

Exactly.

Again, I'm not trying to dispute that PUGs can clear heroic early. I'm only questioning the validity of doing so with sub-optimal specs that early.

But that's the point, ain't it. Even if you're sub-optimal, you will down the boss eventually with enough patience, because week after week, you accumulate both experience and gear. That's why claims like: "Even average guilds need every bit of passive DPS" are false. They don't. "Even average guilds need every bit of passive DPS to down the boss a reset or two earlier" - yes, that's true. Is this a problem, though? I've seen more hardcore guilds fall apart for whatever reasons, than I saw F&F guilds falling apart because they need to farm for gear a week or two longer to overcome an obstacle. Those guilds are in no race and play at their own pace.

I completely agree.

But the point that I was responding to was about the PUG world during early days of a new expansion or content drop. This is only reinforced by situations were certain builds or choices are often more powerful because it slipped through beta/PTS and into live.

- - - Updated - - -

And also pugs clear heroic first week. Cutting edge pugs. Those players could clear entire mythic faster than most guilds if not for lack of x-realm and ID lockout.

Also you would be surprised how easy is to get pug that literally don't care about all that meta-shit. Because you know, most players don't go to forums.

Can we at least agree that these two sentences are two VERY different things?

Finding a PUG that doesn't care about being optimal is easy.
Finding a cutting edge pug that DOES care about being optimal that clears first week is possible.

Finding a PUG that doesn't care about being optimal, that also clears heroic in the first 4 weeks though? I suppose it's possible. But I have serious doubts that it's common.

- - - Updated - - -

People get to add a spash of their own color to their class/spec choice in appearance, allegiance and gameplay. Which is the whole point of this system.

They wanted to remake Legion artifacts without wasting time with 36*5 weapon skins, 36 acquisition quests and 12 class campaigns and us being stuck in another 12 months of nothing.

They basically remade artifact system, reusing a lot of systems already existing and slapped a choice on top of it, so unlike Legion people at least would have some control over what they get.

/shrug

Then the question becomes: Why are largely cosmetic/RP choices being shipped along with significant mechanical/performance changes in such a manner that it's having a serious effect on the players who don't care about one or the other?

I touched on this earlier. The problem is that for Blizzard, "Meaningful choice" often is diametrically opposed to performance. They're historically unable to balance the two. The more emphasis is placed on making different choices, the larger the performance gap there is. There's no indication that Shadowlands will be any different than the last decade and a half.

[Baconeggcheese]

What would be a better indicator is what Covenant are you going with and why? If the decision is made predominantly because of the power vs the aesthetics or game play then you care more about power than anything else.

Here let me give you a different example, both me and Gaidax who's conversation you hopped into predominately played destruction, even when it wasn't the best spec.

There's always the 3 aspects, gameplay, aesthetics, and power. They all have an affect on anyone's decision to varying degrees depending on the situation.

For instance for me personally:

If we're talking about races, that'd be an aesthetic and power choice with not much if any gameplay involved. The power difference is fairly small (usually 1% at the extreme ends) so Aesthetics win out there.

For classes, I love the warlock theme and warlocks have always been top tier, they've got aesthetics and power down for me. Unfortunately I absolutely hate what they've done to the class from legion onwards, so they fail gameplay for me and I'll be changing to a new class. Gameplay beats out aesthetics and power here.

So when it comes to covenants, there's so many layers here because they've up and decided to house so many different aspects under one single choice (which is the contention). Ultimately gameplay is far and away more important to me than anything else, so that will be my immediate concern when picking anything and the covenant choices could actually affect what class I'll end up playing just to avoid certain buttons since I have multiple classes I could see myself otherwise playing. I'd rather be able to pick the strongest power related choice that I also enjoy playing on a class (spec) I enjoy playing than have to compromise somewhere. I don't feel strongly enough about any of the aesthetic options presented as I think all the themes look good as far as I've seen and lore is pretty much irrelevant to me, so those are both less significant to my decision there. Pretty much the only one out of my potential choices that I outright want to avoid like the plague is the warrior banner. If I were to choose to play warrior and they did a tuning pass that made the banner better I'd still likely not take it because I don't like it mechanically and vehemently dislike it aesthetically.

I type all this^ to give you a kind of idea of whats running through my head when I make those decisions, me being someone who was raiding in a US top 10 guild (peaked world 24th) and is the exact kind of person that people on forums like these will try and speak for and say we only care about power and will do all sorts of outrageous things for .5% power increases etc etc that we absolutely don't do. These people really have no idea what they're talking about, but they sure love to tell me and others what people like myself think.

High end players dislike how this system is designed specifically because they care about more than power, but if blizzard forces us to choose between gameplay, power, and aesthetics, we're gonna do what we have to to find the option with the least compromises for us.

2002 blizzard knew this though: https://i.redd.it/ukdusghmghm51.png

I wouldn't say it's the average player. It's a vocal minority that seems to think they speak for the "average" player. Most players I encounter don't say anything.

It can't be both "a vocal minority" and something completely prevalent and pervasive across the entire pug scene and most of the community.

Its very much the average player perpetuating this, otherwise it would be insignificant and we could just ignore it and pugs wouldn't take hours to get into if you aren't the right class min-maxed with better gear than you need for the content you're pugging into. Its absolutely the average player.

I advocate the same. Mainly because the entire purpose of the game is to have fun and enjoy yourself so if you're not enjoying yourself or having fun, what's the point?

That's pretty much the rub though, blizzard is implementing these systems that are hampering peoples fun. Hence the push back.

One of the biggest things I loved about playing a pure and a big part of the reason why I played one was that I got 3 separate unique specs that gave me dramatically different experiences with very different kits and a myriad of options. Pre-legion I almost always played all 3 specs in every raid and had that varied experience.

From legion onwards they keep putting in systems that pigeon hole me into a single spec, which takes away from my fun as I no longer get the varied experience I used to. Now they're adding in yet another system where I'm meant to stick with 1 thing perpetually so that it can get stale instead of letting me have a diverse experience.

[kaminaris]

Can we at least agree that these two sentences are two VERY different things?

Finding a PUG that doesn't care about being optimal is easy.
Finding a cutting edge pug that DOES care about being optimal that clears first week is possible.

Finding a PUG that doesn't care about being optimal, that also clears heroic in the first 4 weeks though? I suppose it's possible. But I have serious doubts that it's common.

That is the pug, mix of everything. Blessing and curse for pugging.

It's not only possible, but its super common. It is super rare to find pug that even half of group is optimal.

[SirCowdog]

That is the pug, mix of everything. Blessing and curse for pugging.

It's not only possible, but its super common. It is super rare to find pug that even half of group is optimal.

I feel like you're avoiding the context here. Which is PUGs during the early days of an expansion when gear and borrowed power hasnt had time to accumulate, and power from choices of covenant have more impact.

Also in the early days when motivated, optimal players are far more likely to be in a guild rather than in the LFG pool looking for PUG runs.

Again...can you find a PUG capable of clearing raids in the early days with a bunch of sub-optimal characters? Sure...I guess it's possible. But is it common? That's doubtful.

Anyway, it's really kind of a moot point when I really think about it. Blizzard isn't going to budge on this until it falls on its face the same way artifacts did, and how azerite gear did. It won't be until 9.2 or 9.3 that they finall swallow their pride and fix it. Which is annoying.

[kaminaris]

I feel like you're avoiding the context here. Which is PUGs during the early days of an expansion when gear and borrowed power hasnt had time to accumulate, and power from choices of covenant have more impact.

Also in the early days when motivated, optimal players are far more likely to be in a guild rather than in the LFG pool looking for PUG runs.

Again...can you find a PUG capable of clearing raids in the early days with a bunch of sub-optimal characters? Sure...I guess it's possible. But is it common? That's doubtful.

Anyway, it's really kind of a moot point when I really think about it. Blizzard isn't going to budge on this until it falls on its face the same way artifacts did, and how azerite gear did. It won't be until 9.2 or 9.3 that they finall swallow their pride and fix it. Which is annoying.

Oh please I killed first week Argus unmaker heroic with pug and when i inspected them these people didnt even have enchants and gems. Opening up ERT showed up red everywhere. So thats about it when it comes to being optimal. Not to mention random leggos despite legion being well over. Prolly because it was their alts they didn't give a flying fuck about the whole expansions.

[SirCowdog]

Oh please I killed first week Argus unmaker heroic with pug and when i inspected them these people didnt even have enchants and gems. Opening up ERT showed up red everywhere. So thats about it when it comes to being optimal. Not to mention random leggos despite legion being well over. Prolly because it was their alts they didn't give a flying fuck about the whole expansions.

Argus the unmaker was an expansion launch raid boss, huh?

Again, you're avoiding the context, or misunderstanding it. That was an x.3 patch boss when all the systems were well ironed out.

[Katchii]

Here let me give you a different example, both me and Gaidax who's conversation you hopped into predominately played destruction, even when it wasn't the best spec.

There's always the 3 aspects, gameplay, aesthetics, and power. They all have an affect on anyone's decision to varying degrees depending on the situation.

For instance for me personally:

If we're talking about races, that'd be an aesthetic and power choice with not much if any gameplay involved. The power difference is fairly small (usually 1% at the extreme ends) so Aesthetics win out there.

For classes, I love the warlock theme and warlocks have always been top tier, they've got aesthetics and power down for me. Unfortunately I absolutely hate what they've done to the class from legion onwards, so they fail gameplay for me and I'll be changing to a new class. Gameplay beats out aesthetics and power here.

So when it comes to covenants, there's so many layers here because they've up and decided to house so many different aspects under one single choice (which is the contention). Ultimately gameplay is far and away more important to me than anything else, so that will be my immediate concern when picking anything and the covenant choices could actually affect what class I'll end up playing just to avoid certain buttons since I have multiple classes I could see myself otherwise playing. I'd rather be able to pick the strongest power related choice that I also enjoy playing on a class (spec) I enjoy playing than have to compromise somewhere. I don't feel strongly enough about any of the aesthetic options presented as I think all the themes look good as far as I've seen and lore is pretty much irrelevant to me, so those are both less significant to my decision there. Pretty much the only one out of my potential choices that I outright want to avoid like the plague is the warrior banner. If I were to choose to play warrior and they did a tuning pass that made the banner better I'd still likely not take it because I don't like it mechanically and vehemently dislike it aesthetically.

I type all this^ to give you a kind of idea of whats running through my head when I make those decisions, me being someone who was raiding in a US top 10 guild (peaked world 24th) and is the exact kind of person that people on forums like these will try and speak for and say we only care about power and will do all sorts of outrageous things for .5% power increases etc etc that we absolutely don't do. These people really have no idea what they're talking about, but they sure love to tell me and others what people like myself think.

High end players dislike how this system is designed specifically because they care about more than power, but if blizzard forces us to choose between gameplay, power, and aesthetics, we're gonna do what we have to to find the option with the least compromises for us.

2002 blizzard knew this though: https://i.redd.it/ukdusghmghm51.png

It can't be both "a vocal minority" and something completely prevalent and pervasive across the entire pug scene and most of the community.

Its very much the average player perpetuating this, otherwise it would be insignificant and we could just ignore it and pugs wouldn't take hours to get into if you aren't the right class min-maxed with better gear than you need for the content you're pugging into. Its absolutely the average player.

That's pretty much the rub though, blizzard is implementing these systems that are hampering peoples fun. Hence the push back.

One of the biggest things I loved about playing a pure and a big part of the reason why I played one was that I got 3 separate unique specs that gave me dramatically different experiences with very different kits and a myriad of options. Pre-legion I almost always played all 3 specs in every raid and had that varied experience.

From legion onwards they keep putting in systems that pigeon hole me into a single spec, which takes away from my fun as I no longer get the varied experience I used to. Now they're adding in yet another system where I'm meant to stick with 1 thing perpetually so that it can get stale instead of letting me have a diverse experience.

Brief because it’s late and I’m on my phone.

Thanks for the write up, very informative and helps me understand the mentality more. I now can much better understand why the Covenant system is causing so many issues with people.

Personally my choice will be driven by aesthetics and game play, with power having almost no consideration unless it’s a toss up between abilities and covenants I like, then power would be the deciding factor.

[Echo of Soul]

I feel like you're avoiding the context here. Which is PUGs during the early days of an expansion when gear and borrowed power hasnt had time to accumulate, and power from choices of covenant have more impact.

Also in the early days when motivated, optimal players are far more likely to be in a guild rather than in the LFG pool looking for PUG runs.

Again...can you find a PUG capable of clearing raids in the early days with a bunch of sub-optimal characters? Sure...I guess it's possible. But is it common? That's doubtful.

Anyway, it's really kind of a moot point when I really think about it. Blizzard isn't going to budge on this until it falls on its face the same way artifacts did, and how azerite gear did. It won't be until 9.2 or 9.3 that they finall swallow their pride and fix it. Which is annoying.

They're also not going to alter the game in order to make pugging more favorable. The answer has always been "find a guild" since this is a mmorpg after all and I doubt that they would budge on that. They've even come out and say that they want to add more social reliance back into the game not less.

[MoanaLisa]

Just as likely as some other thing will get buffed and you'll want to change again. You can call that a nerf but it isn't really.

That's really the game and how it works. If you're not up to it then you should reassess. Personally it won't matter to me. I'll pick the one I like best and mess with the others with alts when I feel like it.

The game shouldn't be designed around min-maxers in any case. The most interesting choice for many may well not be the optimal choice for the few. That's OK.

[Elias01]

I feel like you're avoiding the context here. Which is PUGs during the early days of an expansion when gear and borrowed power hasnt had time to accumulate, and power from choices of covenant have more impact.

Also in the early days when motivated, optimal players are far more likely to be in a guild rather than in the LFG pool looking for PUG runs.

Again...can you find a PUG capable of clearing raids in the early days with a bunch of sub-optimal characters? Sure...I guess it's possible. But is it common? That's doubtful.

Anyway, it's really kind of a moot point when I really think about it. Blizzard isn't going to budge on this until it falls on its face the same way artifacts did, and how azerite gear did. It won't be until 9.2 or 9.3 that they finall swallow their pride and fix it. Which is annoying.

Imagine thinking that 1-2 skills with 30-240 minute cooldown will have big impact on your performance. Seriously we have class with 20+ skills but covenant skill will somehow overwrite it all sure keep that tellking yourself. If someone have low dmg its not going to be becouse of covenant, its not going to be becouseof rng. Its going to be becouse they are bad.