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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    They don't switch class/spec/race after hotfix (of course I'm talking about majority of players I came across or heard about, obviously I don't have data from millions of people). Some people switch talent that are almost on the fly change, but most just pick them from icy veins and never change them for whole season or even expac. People just won't bother to switch covenants if it require any work.

    And "market" on PUG world will have to bend to people. No one required from you best or even good legendary during Legion, cause it required either very good luck or puting many hours into your character.

    Covenants are real problem for cutting edge players that have to get maximum output, and "problem" for min-maxers that either copy what mythic raiders do or just min-maxing for whatever reason is their main goal.

    Also I said "up to M+15". M+15 is not very casual thing, at best it's end goal for casual (but skilled and experienced) people.
    Changing classes is a much more extensive action and a greater choice.

    With covenants we are primarily talking about one ability that changes based on your choice. It's not the great choice that Blizzard make it out to be. But it will impact your performance significantly. And most people care about this. It's not just about the cutting edge players. Most people would be mad if they were locked to one major essence in BFA.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    no one is buying that.

    OP brings up a good point.

    What is choice when decisions made above change what you picked through no power or player agency of your own.
    No once forces you to be a slave to min maxing

    I main a warr currently, there are classes that do more dps than warr in 8.3 - should I reroll?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    No once forces you to be a slave to min maxing

    I main a warr currently, there are classes that do more dps than warr in 8.3 - should I reroll?
    But how can you compared rerolling a class to something which is basically a row of talents?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The idea that only the 1% care about power is a myth.
    and nobody actualy said that... people said only 1% of people play on the level where it would have ACTUAL impact, not that only 1% care...

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post



    Agree people do. What is your point?
    People are in such a hurry to screw each other out of options they will end up screwing themselves
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I agree. It makes no sense to argue about someone elses opinion.

    But I think what the guys meant, was to say that the "meaningful choice" loses all its value if Blizzard changes the baseline after the choice has been made.
    Not if you picked the covenant for another reason other than min max... If you picked it for mogs, lore, theme, rp etc etc. Then the value remains. And many who pick then for rp reasons are actually for the lock and how it enhances it.

    It's all just a clash between min maxers who want to be able to be best at all times and people who wants to have a sense of identity.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2020-09-05 at 10:31 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    and nobody actualy said that... people said only 1% of people play on the level where it would have ACTUAL impact, not that only 1% care...
    But this is not true. Covenants will have a huge impact on your gameplay. It matters in all content. Not only mythic raiding and +25 keys. Most casual players like having good abilities even if they are doing LFR. It's about what is fun and what feels good. Having to pick an ability which is bad in dungeons will feel bad for most players.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    People are in such a hurry to screw each other out of options they will end up screwing themselves
    I mean... Yeah. Most people, pro lock or not, tries to deny the other side the experience they value.

  9. #29
    I’d say it’s going to be a pretty common thing to nerf the covenants. It might take a while because I would predict they will have to be adjusted based on the class/spec individually and not as a whole. For instance, they can’t just buff or nerf something by 5-20% overall because it might affect 1 spec way more than another.
    As it is, if enough specs pick 1 while avoiding others and there is enough discrepancy then of course there will be nerfs happening.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Not if you picked the covenant for another reason other than min max... If you picked it for mogs, lore, theme, ro etc etc. Then the value remains. And many who pick then for rp reasons are actually for the lock and how it enhances it.
    But having bad abilities will still feel bad in the end. And it will for most players. Nobody enjoys having weak abilities. And I'm will bet that a lot of people will complain once they realize this.

  11. #31
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    My 'meaningful choice' is more down to what feels better to slot into my rotation for the most part.

    That said, Ardenweald's speed buff feels mandatory for my ret paladin, So despite them being the faction I care least for they're the ones I'll be going with. As annoying as season blessings are to use...

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    You base that on your own assumption. I would argue the ones that have been vocal about keeping the lock often talks about rpg choice. They don't care about min max portion, but still care about the lock. So I don't see where you get that argument except from your own fiction.
    If your argument is based on assuming another's position its not a strong argument.
    And that RPG choice makes no sense either from a story perspective. That's the whole point. It makes no sense from a lore perspective and it makes no sense from a gameplay perspective.

    It's not done in a good way. I don't see how anyone would like it the way they are doing it. You either dislike it or you're indifferent towards it. People who are defending this either haven't played it themselves yet or they are just happy to see others be miserable in a toxic "haha, fuck those guys" way.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Changing classes is a much more extensive action and a greater choice.

    With covenants we are primarily talking about one ability that changes based on your choice. It's not the great choice that Blizzard make it out to be. But it will impact your performance significantly. And most people care about this. It's not just about the cutting edge players. Most people would be mad if they were locked to one major essence in BFA.
    Covenants are EXACTLY like picking your main spec and investing hours for artifact weapon/legendary in early Legion. Did you heard uproar outside cutting edge circle when Blizzard buffed some rogue or mage spec and "forced" people to grind different weapon?

    Only exception is that going back for covenant B to A will be harder than going back from artifact B to A (and we don't even know yet how hard/time consuming it will be). But that's irrelevant in this "they nerfed my spec/covenant just before raid" scenario.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Covenants are EXACTLY like picking your main spec and investing hours for artifact weapon/legendary in early Legion. Did you heard uproar outside cutting edge circle when Blizzard buffed some rogue or mage spec and "forced" people to grind different weapon?

    Only exception is that going back for covenant B to A will be harder than going back from artifact B to A (and we don't even know yet how hard/time consuming it will be). But that's irrelevant in this "they nerfed my spec/covenant just before raid" scenario.
    Yeah you did hear up roar. People complained about the AP grind switching specs all through Legion until the later patches where the AP % modifier was crazy high
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But this is not true. Covenants will have a huge impact on your gameplay. It matters in all content. Not only mythic raiding and +25 keys. Most casual players like having good abilities even if they are doing LFR. It's about what is fun and what feels good. Having to pick an ability which is bad in dungeons will feel bad for most players.
    but you dont have to pick ability that is bad in dungeons, you can pick one that is good in dungeons, its completely up to you by what criterium you will choose...

    and the impact you mention is "only" how it will feel, sure that is important, but for some people the locked choice is more important bcs that makes them "feel" better... so why should feelings of one group matter more than feelings of others?

    thats the thing people with "you can pretend its locked" seem not to understand, performance impact will be important only for the absolute peak of players, everyone else is just arguing what "feels" better, and somehow, people who care more about performance think THEIR feelings are more important... they are not

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But having bad abilities will still feel bad in the end. And it will for most players. Nobody enjoys having weak abilities. And I'm will bet that a lot of people will complain once they realize this.
    Maybe. It all depends on how bad, bad is. For some they cry that their class got gutted to deletion because of a 2% nerf. It's all very subjective when it comes to what bad is.

    Then we also have blind spots. When someone is used to an ability that is OP any change that makes it in line with the rest of the game, they cry once again how it's useless or how it feels bad.

    Some only care about how the ability feels to use.

    But all of these goes hand in hand. The better an ability feels to use from gameplay perspective the less people care about the nerf. It takes a bigger nerf to cross the line so to speak.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Yeah you did hear up roar. People complained about the AP grind switching specs all through Legion until the later patches where the AP % modifier was crazy high
    I'm talking about community outside cutting edge/min-maxing circle, but of course it's just me & my friends experience. (And naturally I agree it's real problem for these guys, both Legion and SL launch).

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But how can you compared rerolling a class to something which is basically a row of talents?
    Because ultimately you cannot have the best of everything

    You can't play what you want and play the best, unless you're lucky and they happen to coincide, just like how you can't expect to play what's best all the time.

    My point is simple - absolutely no one other than you will force you to play any covenant. You don't have to play with anyone who would try - and if you play to a degree where your covenant choices are mandatory (so the top 1% and no one else) - you should be used to having these decisions made for you.

  19. #39
    Yes It will still be a meaningful choice becasue meaningful choice is just a choice with big, long term conseqences. How powerful the ability is doesn't change the fact that there are conseqences of making the choice.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    And that RPG choice makes no sense either from a story perspective. That's the whole point. It makes no sense from a lore perspective and it makes no sense from a gameplay perspective.

    It's not done in a good way. I don't see how anyone would like it the way they are doing it. You either dislike it or you're indifferent towards it. People who are defending this either haven't played it themselves yet or they are just happy to see others be miserable in a toxic "haha, fuck those guys" way.
    I can do like you and say you like or dislike something because of X reasons and claim it's the truth regardless of what you say.
    I see no value in this. You do you.

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