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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    its not about surviving, its about wether its good game design or not.
    I think Blizzard can teach anyone a thing or two about good design. You not liking it, because "omgz I can't be 100% at everything at the same time", does not mean that the design is bad.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I think Blizzard can teach anyone a thing or two about good design. You not liking it, because "omgz I can't be 100% at everything at the same time", does not mean that the design is bad.
    its not the what its the why and how. not having the optimal choice for m+ or pvp because i have it on raid is inexcusable.

    Do you also consider azerite gold respect cost good? or how the legendaries and artifacts and corruptions and azerite and essences all get the same treatment and its not random, but pretending while its planned to fix problems they create later in the expac to maintain a curve on people's interest?
    Last edited by Popokolara; 2020-09-12 at 09:48 PM.

  3. #603
    Mythic raiding is an unfortunate design mistake on Blizzard's part. Bigger mistake than covenants, legiondaries or what have you. An RPG game - if it truly wants to be an RPG - needs this big leeway (that heroic raiding gives), exactly because people will want to make thematic decisions that are often sub-optimal. The moment Blizz created Mythic raiding, they also created this dipuste we're having right now. Sadly, there's no going back. But claiming that covenants will somehow make normal/heroic raiders life a pain is a huge stretch. In reality, this will affect very few - and I feel for them, but they are still few.

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Mythic raiding is an unfortunate design mistake on Blizzard's part. Bigger mistake than covenants, legiondaries or what have you. An RPG game - if it truly wants to be an RPG - needs this big leeway (that heroic raiding gives), exactly because people will want to make thematic decisions that are often sub-optimal. The moment Blizz created Mythic raiding, they also created this dipuste we're having right now. Sadly, there's no going back. But claiming that covenants will somehow make normal/heroic raiders life a pain is a huge stretch. In reality, this will affect very few - and I feel for them, but they are still few.
    100% this, their current described intent - which i dont buy - is incompatible with mythic. On their own covenant locks would be a cool idea in another rpg. Btw you know when i would buy their whole return to rpg scheme? if it was permanent or at least tier permanency. Man i would actually enjoy that shit. horrible choice for an mmorpg but damn it would be ballsy.

  5. #605
    @SirCowdog: case in point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    No its not silly. And people like you who try to ruin the game for others should stop pretending so with silly arguments like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    We need to move away from the idea that it's a sub-class or something that grandiose.
    So when you take a hard look at the covenant system its really one of many little ways blizzard trying to infuse vanilla philosophies back into retail. The covenant system specifically is a lot like a mini vanilla talent tree which is usually mostly a bunch of passive bonuses to existing spells and then a couple actives.

    Back in vanilla that's what effectively made up a spec, or a sub-class with the current terminology blizzard is using for covenants. Blizzard is increasingly pushing us to wholly invest in and identify as 1 spec for the last couple xpacs. So to them this is just a way to give us a sub-class inside of a spec, or a spec spec...

    I find this entire idea flawed with how current class design works, but I can see how they're coming to that conclusion... even though in modern retail wow it amounts to what the modern game considers a couple talents within a spec and some buffs to the damage of specific spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    A very sizeable chunk of the playerbase evidently cannot handle that non-cosmetic choices in RPGs are actually meant to have consequences too
    That's a big part of peoples issue though.. this is not a non-cosmetic choice, this is a cosmetic choice, and a gameplay choice, and a power choice, all under 1 single choice. People want those choices decoupled from each other.

    Also in games like these the consequence is simply to reroll your character to make the correct choice. Its simply a matter of how much of your time the game is deciding to waste. Its the same exact idea as an ARPG that has permanent stat allocation vs one that lets you reset your stats. At the end of the day they both let you reset your stats, the former just makes you waste a few hours to do it. But if you care, then you'll do it, and if you don't care, then it never was a consequence in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Blizzard has been under pressure from some elements of its audience to reintroduce RPG elements back to the game. RPG design, in the most basic sense, is about making choices for your characters.

    It's obvious that when there are several options available that can change the nature of your character and it's stupidly easy to move between those choices then they really aren't choices at all. Just switches that are turned on and off at will.

    Covenants are very much an RPG element: Who will you be? What do you choose? Everyone should make that choice if it's to have any meaning.
    And now they're under pressure from some elements of their audience to actually let us have choice instead of putting the entirety of several different systems and aspects of choice under one single choice... and to also let us have enough flexibility to actually experiment and change things up and have fun with the game instead of them trying to pigeon hole us into smaller and smaller buckets that they either intend for us to stay in for an entire xpac or they intend for us to reroll through to experience other ones just to take up more of our time.

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Maybe the answer is that the literal handful of ppl who seem to know it all better and provide the "push back" do not represent the target audience?
    I just made a post to you saying the opposite, in that they shouldn't need to listen to random youtubers or twitch personalities... and that they should be learning from their own mistakes... and somehow you got the polar opposite from it?

    Like I said... they went through this already repeatedly these last 2 xpacs. They keep trying to do the same thing and it keeps blowing up in their face the exact same way.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    its not the what its the why and how. not having the optimal choice for m+ or pvp because i have it on raid is inexcusable.

    Do you also consider azerite gold respect cost good? or how the legendaries and artifacts and corruptions and azerite and essences all get the same treatment and its not random but pretending while its planned to fix problems they create later in the expac to maintain a curve on people's interest?
    You will live with that too. Just like I lived with 50g a pop for respec back in Vanilla.

    I think Blizzard's ultimate mistake was spoonfeeding people for far too long, so they created this toxic atmosphere where some loudmouths are so obsessed with razor thin % differences, that any sort of deviation from causes a wave of foaming at mouth and fainting.

    It's good they decide to take a step back, however shy it cuddly it still is.

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Update: Add "Casual hexweave bag crafters" to this. https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...blems-up-ahead

    I think I know why Blizzard doesn't listen.
    How does a "casual hexweave crafter" come anywhere near the concept of a professional gamer?

    While I don't question that parts of the game should be created to allow players of all types to have fun. I do have doubts about creating umbrella systems in the performance-based area of the game that needlessly force conformity to a casual level. (More on this in my reply to MoanaLisa)

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    The "game should never be designed around min-maxers in any case" thing is silly frankly.

    Its a core facet of what these games are about

    That said you absolutely shouldn't always be designing around min-maxing either
    Path of Exile is probably the strongest example I can give in favor of designing for min-maxing.

    Granted, WoW is not POE. The playerbase is different. WoW has a more broad spectrum of players from Casual to Hardcore. However, POE is a perfect example of how min-maxing gameplay and design can absolutely be incredibly fun and engaging, both in terms of raw calculation of performance, and the actual execution of the gameplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    And Ion claiming that this will somehow help the pug issue, which I can't fathom how he came to that conclusion.
    Did he actually say that? o_O

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    You will live with that too. Just like I lived with 50g a pop for respec back in Vanilla.

    I think Blizzard's ultimate mistake was spoonfeeding people for far too long, so they created this toxic atmosphere where some loudmouths are so obsessed with razor thin % differences, that any sort of deviation from causes a wave of foaming at mouth and fainting.

    It's good they decide to take a step back, however shy it cuddly it still is.
    did i say i cant live with it? no. It was never about survival as i said multiple times. Are you capable of having a discussion without jumping off to imaginary hyperboles? or is that the only way you can hold your precious paper thin narrative bubble?
    You are talking with me and i am not foaming or fainting.

    so fine go attack the shadowplay on your wall and argue against those toxic imaginary demons.

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I think Blizzard can teach anyone a thing or two about good design. You not liking it, because "omgz I can't be 100% at everything at the same time", does not mean that the design is bad.
    Blizzards got a lot of fantastic design in there, they also have a ton of bad design that undermines the good.

    Covenants are a good example of both, because there is a lot of good in there, and then an arbitrary choice to undermine a lot of what could have made a much more compelling system.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    did i say i cant live with it? no. It was never about survival as i said multiple times. Are you capable of having a discussion without jumping off to imaginary hyperboles? or is that the only way you can hold your precious paper thin narrative bubble?
    You are talking with me and i am not foaming or fainting.

    so fine go attack the shadowplay on your wall and argue against those toxic imaginary demons.
    Leave your feels out.

    Those 5% you and others might lose are not something that your life will depend on, the customization feature that allows people to add a splash of color to their stock class/spec is worth those broken hearts over 5% they may miss out elsewhere.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Did he actually say that? o_O
    go at the 39.22 timestamp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEcXvDDtarc

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    I am fully aware of gear check. But even as a mythic raider, 8 out 10 fights aren't gear check fights. The 95% of the playerbase will never encounter a fight where they die due to an enrage timer.
    And yet THOUSANDS of players are constantly yelling "Go go go!" or wondering why players in their group are so slow, or flipping them crap because their DPS is bad. All of M+ is based almost entirely on speed running to beat a timer, FFS!

    It's not always a simple case of not beating an enrage timer. It's the perception of DPS being the most important part of a group. Which is not to say that proper execution of mechanics isn't important! Ask any combat trainer in almost any field and I guarantee you they'll tell you that smooth is better than fast. But that's not how the vast majority of the WoW playerbase thinks.

    And I'm not even saying that perception is correct. But I AM saying that the perception is very real, and it effects how a large portion of the playerbase views the game, and gauges their enjoyment. Optimization is a VERY important part of the game. Blizzard creating a system that curtails that, or ignores it, or tries to force it into something it isn't.....doesn't work. Or at least they haven't been able to make it work the past couple of expansions.

    But here we are again, with Blizzard repeating the same mistake.

  13. #613
    Warchief Sluvs's Avatar
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    I think I speak for everyone* when I say that the only TRUE endgame is transmog. Everything else is just a excuse for its existence. Therefor covenant abilities DPS increase is meaningless.

    *(and by everyone I mean literally everyone in the world.Or maybe just me idk)
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Blizzards got a lot of fantastic design in there, they also have a ton of bad design that undermines the good.

    Covenants are a good example of both, because there is a lot of good in there, and then an arbitrary choice to undermine a lot of what could have made a much more compelling system.
    This will follow the usual iterative process. I don't think anyone can fairly expect them to conjure perfection from a get go.

    As usual they will see how it goes, make adjustments, introduce new stuff down the road and when SL is done and gone, we might see some of it incorporated in whatever reskin+evolution system v5.0 they conjure in 10.0.

    It's more of the usual. This time their theme is customization, guess they want to mix things up a bit and I'm cool with that, personally.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    Accurately? Really. They didn't like it to their own specific narrowminded expectations and they was screaming and yelling .
    This is a gross misrepresentation of the people giving feedback, and quite honestly you should be ashamed for trying to make it appear that way.

    These people aren't screaming and yelling. They're carefully considering, testing on the Alpha, Beta, and PTS. Then they're giving an honest opinion based on a level of experience and understanding of the game that most players don't have.

    They aren't being narrow-minded. Go watch Preach's videos about covenants. He and Ion had a VERY interesting and civil conversation about the issue.

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    no one is buying that.

    OP brings up a good point.

    What is choice when decisions made above change what you picked through no power or player agency of your own.
    This is even more foolish than my comment in a different thread... There are DEFINITELY people that are going to pick for aesthetic reasons.

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Leave your feels out.
    have you noticed your pattern? i answer to specific things you say - you dont or even comment on it. Your reply now was leave your feels out. what feels?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Those 5% you and others might lose are not something that your life will depend on, the customization feature that allows people to add a splash of color to their stock class/spec is worth those broken hearts over 5% they may miss out elsewhere.
    100% agree and never dissagreed - for the 6th time? - its not a survivability issue.

    Do you have any more irrelevant or non typed sentences you do want to argue against.
    Better yet goodbye.

  18. #618
    Warchief Sluvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Blizzards got a lot of fantastic design in there, they also have a ton of bad design that undermines the good.

    Covenants are a good example of both, because there is a lot of good in there, and then an arbitrary choice to undermine a lot of what could have made a much more compelling system.
    I mean, you can also say that the choice between classes is arbitrary if you follow that train of thought
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    They're carefully considering, testing on the Alpha, Beta, and PTS. Then they're giving an honest opinion based on a level of experience and understanding of the game that most players don't have.
    I actually think that this beta did backfire there somewhat.

    I and others are part of CE raider invites and it does not take a genius to figure out that CE raiders will be very critical of a system that does not allow them 100% optimal base everywhere.

    After playing beta extensively, I believe the generated noise far surpasses the actual state of things. Overall, SL so far, as I seen it - is one of the most player friendly expansions in past several cycles. The negativity generated is completely disproportionate to real state of things there.

    Unfortunately this noise causes people to "pre"-hate the whole deal, despite them not really even knowing what they are talking about. There are many here making doomsday scenarios, but not even having beta access to see this for themselves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    100% agree and never dissagreed - for the 6th time? - its not a survivability issue.
    So it's a feels issue, gotcha.

  20. #620
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    How does a "casual hexweave crafter" come anywhere near the concept of a professional gamer?
    Oh..it is more along the lines that everyone has an opinion that Blizzard "should" listen to. A casual Hexweave bag crafter fits in perfectly...because...why should one only listen to the "professional" gamers? It is not they who make up the biggest group of people who shell out the 15 dollars a month.

    And at the end of the day...it is what it's about for a company. Get as many people as possible to pay for your product.

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