Will Blizzard nerf your "meaningful choice"?

[munkeyinorbit]

I keep seeing this but most people who play this game casually probably care somewhat about power progression, and that's not including how the general video game culture and it's metas are these days. The idea of playing an RPG (WoW) where gearing and player power has been the core theme throughout it's lifespan, saying covenant power only matters to the "high level" players or 1%ers is just not true on any level.

If you attach power to a system that's supposed to be about choice, the choice will most likely be about power over flavor and the general playerbase (not just the hardcores) will feel it as time goes on.

And that's a choice they make. It is just as meaningful as choosing for how the mount looks. It's a guarantee that power rankings for covenants are going to change. If Blizzard sees that most people are going for a specific covenant you know they will nerf it. It's the way blizzard is. If something is so powerful that it defacto becomes mandatory you can be sure that it'll be needed to the ground. That's Blizzards MO. So either every one bes really cool and don't act like there is a defacto pick they should be fine. Me. I'll pick the coolest mount.

[Fkiolaris]

During Legion, did you need to grind artifact power to paragon levels before Trial of Valor, farm M+ until you get your best in slot legendary or switch weapon and start AP/legendary grind from 0 when Blizzard buff other spec?

For sure you didn't need it complete content, because at this level main thing to do is coordination and mechanic execution, above average numbers just makes up for your mistakes. It's cutting edge level (on release) where players needs both perfect execution and maximum possible numbers.

Of course I'm talking about situation when balance will be usual for Blizzard standards (so still far, far away to be optimal for many people), not situation when some Covenant will be so OP that all sites will have to put ALL MAGES COME TO VENTHYR OR YOU WILL BE F*CKED message or something.

But why do you insist in this false dichotomy? No I didn't do all the things you ask for in Legion, but that doesn't mean I didn't care at all for my performance or it didn't matter at all for the content that I am doing.

Let me put it this way: if my ceiling in terms of ability is normal or heroic raids or even LFR, does it mean that nothing affecting my performance is important if I am doing that content because it's not Mythic? On the other hand, if I am not spending absolutely every second I am online trying to optimise my character, does it mean I don't care about optimisation at all? It's not black or white mate, that's why a number of us are rejecting the 1% statement.

[munkeyinorbit]

There is no lore reason why this choice would make sense. And there is no gameplay reason that makes it into a good choice. It is stupidity and defending it is as well. I can understand indifference but defending this, I cannot understand. If you don't care about performance, if you want to make a meaningful choice, then why do you need the restriction for it? You can always make a choice without a restriction. You could just choose to be Venthyr and to only use Venthyr abilities and do the Venthyr story parts. You could restrict yourself as a meaningful choice to live out your class fantasy of being a vampire warrior or whatever class. What do you gain from everyone else being forced into such a restriction as well?

Because meaningful choices require sacrifice. You want max performance, then your sacrifice is maybe using the ugly covenant or knowing that you are going to have to do a lot of grinding because the power rankings will change. Switching whenever you like makes the system worthless and you might as well not have it. Crying about not being able to change whenever you want just reeks of entitlement.

This bullshit of being forced to do anything are just lies people who don't actually like the game say. Everything you do in wow is a choice and if there is a default choice then there's no meaningful choice at all. You know what Blizzard is going to do and I am waiting eagerly for the tears. You do it to yourself.

[Dracullus]

I like the ability the most that does the most damage. That's what the topic is about. What if I pick the one that does the most damage, and then they nerf it, making another ability the one that does the most damage. Should I switch covenants every time they balance talents?

I don't get it, for anyone that play WoW or any modern video game it should be obvious that devs can change number via hotfix/patch. So if you care only about number output, sure, switch your covenant, talent, class, spec, PC, whatever, I'm not your mother.

I can just comment that I doubt you'll ever be happy in MMORPG where game requires put time and effort into your character, but numbers can switch and you never know if your warlock could be outperform by any mage spec any moment.

With this whole system devil is in the detail. Of course it will be shitty system and 9.0 will be disaster if suddenly one covenant will outperform other with 10% gap after hotfix. Less the gap will be, more people will be fine with system, it's not 0/1 scenario.

Yeah that's my priority as well. It annoys me that I won't be able to experiment and switch around my playstyle. It's less about being optimal for me and more about having options and coming with unique builds and interactions. Heck just Torghast alone; many anima powers revolve around your Covenant and the way that place will feel will vary a ton depending on what Covenant you choose. So 12 characters are not enough to check everything, I now need 48? Screw that.

Yep, that is solid argument against covenants that people very rarely bring to the table. Meaningful choices are good, but 12 choices are ENOUGH. At least for me, over the years I saw many people asking for subclasses, I guess covenants are something like that.

But I'm don't really get uproar, if covenants will be disaster from balance perspective, Blizzard can solve that in one second - covenant switching like talents, one renown level for all covenants. It's not BfA where they had to scrap whole Azerite and came up with another system.

But why do you insist in this false dichotomy? No I didn't do all the things you ask for in Legion, but that doesn't mean I didn't care at all for my performance or it didn't matter at all for the content that I am doing.

Let me put it this way: if my ceiling in terms of ability is normal or heroic raids or even LFR, does it mean that nothing affecting my performance is important if I am doing that content because it's not Mythic? On the other hand, if I am not spending absolutely every second I am online trying to optimise my character, does it mean I don't care about optimisation at all? It's not black or white mate, that's why a number of us are rejecting the 1% statement.

Of course it's not black & white, as I said somewhere here - bigger gap, bigger problem. I just find scenario where Covenant A was best and after pre-raid hotfix Covenant B is better by gap that would impact heroic raiders like me or you as very unrealistic. That's why I compared it to Legion situation.

(Don't get me wrong, I think that some Covenant will have clearly best numbers on release is very likely, I just don't think that 2nd/3rd/4th pick will suddenly be 1st by large margin after hotfix.)

[Wuusah]

Because meaningful choices require sacrifice.

And you can make a sacrifice. Why do you have to be forced into a sacrifice if you don’t care about performance?

You want max performance, then your sacrifice is maybe using the ugly covenant or knowing that you are going to have to do a lot of grinding because the power rankings will change. Switching whenever you like makes the system worthless and you might as well not have it. Crying about not being able to change whenever you want just reeks of entitlement.

I don’t want performance. I want fun. Being able to switch to the best ability for the right content is fun. Being powerful is fun. Using your strong aoe skill in an aoe situation is fun. Using your strong aoe skill in a single target fight isn’t fun, especially when you know that it could’ve been a strong single target skill.

And yes, it’s entitlement. I pay for this game. I am entitled to fun. That’s how this transaction works. I give money, they give entertainment. The better the entertainment, the more likely I’ll pay more money.

[Kaver]

If you did not do your homework, the problem is you.

It's pretty same like all the HC heroes *bleep*-ing up their priority lists. Yeah they do far worse than just 10%. From my pug experience people lose much more damage from just not knowing what the fuck they are doing, at which point covenant choice is simply irrelevant anyway, because you can't bloody play your spec proper kekw.

True.

But there will also be a lot of scenarios where there are two Rogues (or other classes) in a raid and one is doing 10% more damage simply because he is Necrolord and the other one is Venthyr. That doesnt feel good and that is a problem for a lot of people at many levels, not only cutting edge.

[Sevarin]

This expansion introduced Grimoire of Supremacy talent for Destruction, it was a go to talent for all the expansion and is removed in Shadowlands. Was it "borrowed power" too?

This borrowed power fad term people throw around is super meaningless - for all intents and purposes what you get in expansion is your power for 2 years and it really matters little what UI element you see it in.

theres a difference between a spec that MIGHT possibly change and something that everyone has that is absolutely, 100% chance going away.

this meaningful choice fad term people keep throwing around is super meaningless.

[GoKs]

Inb4: "Please help me with my damage, I feel like i am missing something?"
"Change your covenant you fucking noob!!"
Meanwhile the poor soul didnt use kill command at all during the fight.....


Edit: Let me elaborate a bit.
People want to play what they like, but unfortunately we have a bunch of douches on the forums, especially here. Where some one could have asked for logs and see that the person didnt use KC at all and helped them through that, they will jump on to the covenant bandwagon. It is going to happen. Covenants are going to become the main focus.

Unfortunately we dont have many people here that would assist you in improving your play style with what you chose, they will just point you to cookie cutter builds or tell you to sim it, instead of saying for example: " i see you like venthyr, strange choice but that doesnt really matter, try and use kill command on cooldown, since you are a BM hunter, most of your damage come from your pet, that will get you some more damage, if you still feel like you need some more help dont hesitate to ask again."

[Swnem]

I'd say it is very likely.

They really should unlink the abilities from the covenants.

Like, the idea is great. I like it. But, i don't think it works in a competitive game.

[Packmule]

It’s realy not about “if” it happends
It’s a matter of “when” it happends.

[munkeyinorbit]

And you can make a sacrifice. Why do you have to be forced into a sacrifice if you don’t care about performance?



I don’t want performance. I want fun. Being able to switch to the best ability for the right content is fun. Being powerful is fun. Using your strong aoe skill in an aoe situation is fun. Using your strong aoe skill in a single target fight isn’t fun, especially when you know that it could’ve been a strong single target skill.

And yes, it’s entitlement. I pay for this game. I am entitled to fun. That’s how this transaction works. I give money, they give entertainment. The better the entertainment, the more likely I’ll pay more money.

Choosing a covalent based on looks could sacrifice performance. Chasing the optimum for m+ may mean losing out on ST. Is this so hard to understand? If you can change easily or get the looks you like with ease then there is no sacrifice so there is no meaningful decision. Blizzards design goal is to make choices mean something. RPGs are about choices.

At least you're honest about entitlement but why do you think your voice means more than someone who would rather have choices that matter? The answer is that you are not special and acting like you are is a severe character flaw.

Maybe it is time that you take your dollar somewhere else for a while. Wait until blizzard starts to loosen restrictions because you are not going to enjoy SL until they do.

[Wuusah]

theres a difference between a spec that MIGHT possibly change and something that everyone has that is absolutely, 100% chance going away.

Not really, no. Nothing has a 100% chance to go away. A lot of the borrowed power stuff finds its way into your class kit after the expansion. It’s either made into a talent or is a new skill rank that gives you the passive or some other way.
Not all borrowed powers make it into the next expansion but neither do skills and talents.

Borrowed power is nothing else but talents that we need to grind for. Borrowed power has been in the game since the vanilla release in the form of set bonuses.

[Nobleshield]

Honestly I don't care if they do. I'm sick of this attitude of "Waaah why can't I be the best at everything always! It's not fair!" that you keep seeing trotted out.

[Kaver]

Choosing a covalent based on looks could sacrifice performance. Chasing the optimum for m+ may mean losing out on ST. Is this so hard to understand? If you can change easily or get the looks you like with ease then there is no sacrifice so there is no meaningful decision. Blizzards design goal is to make choices mean something. RPGs are about choices.

At least you're honest about entitlement but why do you think your voice means more than someone who would rather have choices that matter? The answer is that you are not special and acting like you are is a severe character flaw.

Maybe it is time that you take your dollar somewhere else for a while. Wait until blizzard starts to loosen restrictions because you are not going to enjoy SL until they do.

To me it makes no RP sense for a Death Knight to join the Night Fae covenant only because they have a good ability.

[Soon-TM]

Yet they've never been able to do this before.
It's a pretty sure bet that they will nerf and overnerf whatever ability is the best when Shadowlands is released.

Indeed. That comment about Blizzard nerfing/buffing stuff by "5%", or whatever number they pulled out of some body cavity, was so naive that I couldn't help but to feel some tenderness towards the poster. I still remember my holy priest pulling some decent numbers in Uldir, only for Blizzard to arrive with the sledgehammer in 8.1 and DECIMATE it. From then on, hpriest has been nothing but a crippled paladin.

And the same happened (in reverse) with Shadow BTW. So, "5% adjustments" my ass.

[uniquesnowflakename]

Remember back in Legion when they said they weren't going to nerf artifact traits because they respected players' time investment, and then they absolutely annihilated Outlaw rogue right before the first raid opened and it never recovered for the rest of the expansion?

There is a 0% chance this covenant gimmick doesn't end up being a disaster that makes half the playerbase mad from day one until the inevitable "we hear your frustration" change.

[Defend]

If - like overwhelming majority - play up to Heroic Raid/M+15/PVP below high rating, just pick abilities/fantasy/transmog package that you like the most.

If you're min-maxers or play cutting edge difficulty, you will switch covenant after nerf and regrind Renown, like you grind every expansion.

I’m a Mythic raider; but I also love tmog and my characters lore, I j don’t know why it has to be this wayyy though. There’s a 75% chance I’m gonna have to pick something I’m not into to play at a level with my friends and it also doesn’t reallly make sense lore wise. You are infused with the anima of all the covenants during leveling they can easily justify it as you tap into that power. Just cause we always grind doesn’t mean it should continue big sad

[alturic]

I’m a Mythic raider; but I also love tmog and my characters lore, I j don’t know why it has to be this wayyy though. There’s a 75% chance I’m gonna have to pick something I’m not into to play at a level with my friends and it also doesn’t reallly make sense lore wise. You are infused with the anima of all the covenants during leveling they can easily justify it as you tap into that power. Just cause we always grind doesn’t mean it should continue big sad

It’s as-if they (like majority of players) don't realize that in a stat/number-based game there will always be a right and wrong choice.

The concept of choosing something meaningful is nice and all, but unless both options are identical in the stat/number and it’s just cosmetic, it will never work.

[Lolites]

I care about other people having fun in WoW even if it has no impact on my own gameplay.

first of all, just bcs you try to formulate your comments how everyone/majoriy of people care/want something, doesnt mean you care, it just shows you want to LOOK less selfish bcs its not what YOU want, its what this fake "majority" wants, thats selfish AND disingenuous...

and if you actualy cared you would care ESPECIALY when it impacts your gameplay, if it doesnt impact you its not caring its "not giving a fuck"...
bcs "I care about others AS LONG as it doesnt impact me" is goddamn definition of selfishness...

[Kaver]

It’s as-if they (like majority of players) don't realize that in a stat/number-based game there will always be a right and wrong choice.

The concept of choosing something meaningful is nice and all, but unless both options are identical in the stat/number and it’s just cosmetic, it will never work.

And people act like it's only mythic raiders who care about this. ALL players who do raiding or dungeons care about this. If option 1 do 10 % more damage than option 2 then most people want option 1.