Will Blizzard nerf your "meaningful choice"?

[SirCowdog]

The game shouldn't be designed around min-maxers in any case. The most interesting choice for many may well not be the optimal choice for the few. That's OK.

True.

But neither should it be designed to be needlessly inconvenient to those min-maxers in the service of enforcing a single version of "interesting" onto the entire playerbase.

I really don't think it's fair for blizzard to make this same mistake again. And players shouldn't have to wait until x.3 for Blizzard to realize that mistake and correct it.

#pulltheripcord

[Toybox]

If majority picks 1 covenant because its strongest either neef that one or buff the others.

No way they will be happy if 99% picks 1 side.

Tell me, how do you make it so a big single target covenant ability & a big aoe covenant ability are balanced without making them both shit, rendering whatever difference there is between them irrelevant?

Blizzard have given themselves an impossible task here.

True.

But neither should it be designed to be needlessly inconvenient to those min-maxers in the service of enforcing a single version of "interesting" onto the entire playerbase.

I really don't think it's fair for blizzard to make this same mistake again. And players shouldn't have to wait until x.3 for Blizzard to realize that mistake and correct it.

#pulltheripcord

It's not even just the min-maxers, & the very idea it is needs to bugger off already. People like trying new things & playing about with talent because it's fun, right? What's the point in giving us 4 new abilities if we're only going to see 3 of them while leveling, or unless we inconvenience ourselves greatly going forward?

[Elias01]

Tell me, how do you make it so a big single target covenant ability & a big aoe covenant ability are balanced without making them both shit, rendering whatever difference there is between them irrelevant?

Blizzard have given themselves an impossible task here.

And this is ladies on gentlment 1 on 1 "i have no idea how game desing works"

I have tip for you. They wont be balanced. They wont be balanced per situation they will be balanced per raid/dungeon. On 1 boss aoe skills will give you advatnage becouse there is lost of mobs and it does lot of dmg becouse of it. On second boss you add no adds at all so your aoe abillity dmg drops heavely and single target covenant will shine and do more dmg. See i just balanced this skill for you. Its all about just to make sure that each skill have situation withing content where they can shine and situations where they suck.

[Gaidax]

Tell me, how do you make it so a big single target covenant ability & a big aoe covenant ability are balanced without making them both shit, rendering whatever difference there is between them irrelevant?

Blizzard have given themselves an impossible task here.

If you'd follow the multiple Q&As and interviews, Blizzard is completely ok with covenant abilities being straight up better for situations that suit them. This means that, yes, it's ok if a Covenant AoE ability is better in AoE than alternative more ST oriented ability.

All they want there is for gap to not be humongous, but they don't mind it being flat out better either.

That's ok.

[Toybox]

And this is ladies on gentlment 1 on 1 "i have no idea how game desing works"

I have tip for you. They wont be balanced. They wont be balanced per situation they will be balanced per raid/dungeon. On 1 boss aoe skills will give you advatnage becouse there is lost of mobs and it does lot of dmg becouse of it. On second boss you add no adds at all so your aoe abillity dmg drops heavely and single target covenant will shine and do more dmg. See i just balanced this skill for you. Its all about just to make sure that each skill have situation withing content where they can shine and situations where they suck.

I don't think there's a single raid encounter in SL where I'd want to play anything but Venthyr as a Warrior. Sure the Kyrian potion is nice, but there's limited value to be found from our two big AoE ability covenants, as if there's enough adds to need huge AoE burst damage there's likely enough AoE DPS in the group to deal with it anyway, rather than having a single target/cleave class worry too much about it.

If you'd follow the multiple Q&As and interviews, Blizzard is completely ok with covenant abilities being straight up better for situations that suit them. This means that, yes, it's ok if a Covenant AoE ability is better in AoE than alternative more ST oriented ability.

All they want there is for gap to not be humongous, but they don't mind it being flat out better either.

That's ok.

It's simply a fantasy without lowering all the abilities to a low-quality filler status, & at that point the entire system is uninteresting & bland.

I'm not all that bothered about being stuck with one covenant for raiding as much as I am bothered by the fact I'm stuck with one ability for 2 years when there's 3 other perfectly fine abilities I'd like to try out without inconveniencing myself heavily. Spending two weeks to essentially try a different talent seems insane to me.

[Elias01]

I don't think there's a single raid encounter in SL where I'd want to play anything but Venthyr as a Warrior.

You argument failed right in moment you said i dont think. So nothinhg but speculation.

[klaps_05]

It already is very nerfed. You can freely go to a new covenant, so covenants punish only because you left them, not because you are going to another. The going back to covenant you already had is also quite easy and can be done in 1 day (over reset). If you really need a covenant for something, you just can keep the quest in your quest log on completed and turn it in when you need to.

I would like for blizzard to actually pick what to do with covenants - either full flexibility, everyone can do whatever they want whenever they want, or manually put each class in X covenants. All mages Kyrian, all locks venthyr, etc, no changes, ever.

[Toybox]

You argument failed right in moment you said i dont think. So nothinhg but speculation.

Well when you can't swap back easily, even if there were to be one fight where another ability is marginally better (which I don't think there is from the testing I've done & seen done by others), doing so is simply not going to happen - which is what Blizzard wants, and to be honest, I can kind of get behind the idea of not wanting people to swap on a fight by fight basis. I do think they're taking it to much too high of an extreme though, & the system as a whole screams anti-fun. Like I said, I'm not bothered about the possibility of playing one ability for 2 years because it's the best for raiding, but the idea that I can't have fun with the other ones without either making an alt or inconveniencing myself is just sad.

[HumbleDuck]

Well, that's why ill have to level more than one character per class.

When ion says "meaningful choice" I honestly don't know what he is on about, what meaningful choice? Since when is picking ONE abilities a meaningful choice?

Anyways, it will be the third expansion ruined by terrible directorial decisions, I wonder whose fault it is.

[Gaidax]

Since when is picking ONE abilities a meaningful choice?

*raises eyebrow*

[Uputz]

Night Fae for DKs need to be tuned

[SirCowdog]

If you'd follow the multiple Q&As and interviews, Blizzard is completely ok with covenant abilities being straight up better for situations that suit them. This means that, yes, it's ok if a Covenant AoE ability is better in AoE than alternative more ST oriented ability.

All they want there is for gap to not be humongous, but they don't mind it being flat out better either.

That's ok.

And I think this is where Blizzard fails every time. It's fine for Blizzard to try new things and go with what they think is ok. But they REALLY need to start listening to what the players tell them is wrong with that version of "Ok". This bullshit where they dig in their heels and stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the flaws of their mystical dream of "How The Game Should Be Played(tm)" needs to stop. It NEVER works the way they think it should.

We don't need another expansion where this goes on until the final major patch before being fixed.

[SirCowdog]

...and this is where it stops being easy. It just does not work. Who would they listen to? And why?

The people who accurately predicted the flaws with the past 20 systems during alpha beta of the previous expansions.

You don't even get people to agree on anything on this forum, that currently has a measly 195 people online that can post in threads. And that is before the posters here who just find anything negative that is added to the game.

People offer their opinions even without ever playing alpha or beta and if we narrow it down to youtube content creators who do..even THEY don't speak with one voice.

If you were working on a project, what would YOU do if only 100 ppl came in and offered 100 DIFFERENT views on what they dislike and 100 different views how to fix it? In the ned...sure...you can look at that input and weight it...but then what? You will trust a random strangers gut feeling who has no experience in your field of work and is just a consumer more than your own instincts and experience?

I am in no way suggesting some sort of group mind or community driven poll to figure oit a solution via communism or democratic popularity vote.

But there ARE "professional" gamers who operate at a hich enough level, with enough experience in the game to identify bad decisions. Top end arena players. Mythic raid progression players. M+ key pushers on the cutting edge.

I know I'll get flack for this, but when even people like Preach, Bellular, and...god help me....Asmongold....all agree on the same critical points with professional gamers, it seems like maybe that's a good indication that Blizzard should reconsider their stance.

But whoever they listen too, it can't be worse than the echo chamber that's resulted in the deep flaws of the systems in Legion and BfA.

[Elias01]

Well when you can't swap back easily, even if there were to be one fight where another ability is marginally better (which I don't think there is from the testing I've done & seen done by others), doing so is simply not going to happen - which is what Blizzard wants, and to be honest, I can kind of get behind the idea of not wanting people to swap on a fight by fight basis. I do think they're taking it to much too high of an extreme though, & the system as a whole screams anti-fun. Like I said, I'm not bothered about the possibility of playing one ability for 2 years because it's the best for raiding, but the idea that I can't have fun with the other ones without either making an alt or inconveniencing myself is just sad.

Kinda stupid becouse its like asking to swap into different class abilities becouse you want experiment and have fun with other skills. And allowing this would completly ruin entire game. Just like it would ruin covenants.

[Rageonit]

But there ARE "professional" gamers who operate at a hich enough level, with enough experience in the game to identify bad decisions. Top end arena players. Mythic raid progression players. M+ key pushers on the cutting edge.

Funny when you think that Ion Hazzikostas is the same gamer who made posts about C'thun being mathematically impossible to kill pre-nerf.
Makes you wonder what happened to the guy? Is Activision really the dark overlord that lured him to the dark side of the Force? Or maybe being inside changes your perspective a bit?
For all the flak Blizzard is getting, WoW is the only MMO that will probably never die. It's a cultural phenomenom, like MtG is for card games. Maybe the truth of the matter is that you have to introduce broken systems like corruptions, to give players hope they can get what they want, and when that hope dies, you just magicaly spawn a vendor, so people can re-sub. Would go nicely with Bellular's conspirational theory.

[Baconeggcheese]

True.

But neither should it be designed to be needlessly inconvenient to those min-maxers in the service of enforcing a single version of "interesting" onto the entire playerbase.

I really don't think it's fair for blizzard to make this same mistake again. And players shouldn't have to wait until x.3 for Blizzard to realize that mistake and correct it.

#pulltheripcord

The "game should never be designed around min-maxers in any case" thing is silly frankly. Who should mythic raids or high end M+ or PvP be designed around? What's the point of all these RPG systems like gear and talents etc if not to min-max around them? etc etc. Its a core facet of what these games are about, you don't kill the boss to get better gear to keep wearing the worse gear because you like it better, that's not how the game loop in these kinds of games is designed.

That said you absolutely shouldn't always be designing around min-maxing either, but of course when they design a player power related system they design it around playing that system...

The covenant debate isn't about min-maxers though, that's the fallacy people keep increasingly putting forward. Everything only matters to the evil top player 1%-er who is trying to ruin the game for everyone else. Despite that the way this system is designed affects everyone, the average player more than the "top player", and designing it in this way benefits none of them.

Hence the best defense people being able to come up with being the contentious aspects "not mattering" to players as opposed to anything being positive about this design.

And Ion claiming that this will somehow help the pug issue, which I can't fathom how he came to that conclusion.

If you'd follow the multiple Q&As and interviews, Blizzard is completely ok with covenant abilities being straight up better for situations that suit them. This means that, yes, it's ok if a Covenant AoE ability is better in AoE than alternative more ST oriented ability.

All they want there is for gap to not be humongous, but they don't mind it being flat out better either.

That's ok.

Except (as we can see on the beta) they're already failing that.

Also... its literally the same issue they created in legion with talents where we'd have pure aoe talents next to pure single target talents on the same row. This created really stale binary non-meaningful choices. They're repeating that exact same mistake with this... except worse because you can't swap it on the fly. A design by the way, that they ended up reverting and moving talents around so that rows were themed again because it worked out so poorly.

Someone really has this idea in their head and is just dying to make it work despite it repeatedly failing every time they try. They don't seem to understand that its fundamentally flawed.

Guess the names of the people who accurately predicted the flaws with the past 20 systems during alpha beta of the previous expansions are out there, as are the videos of Preach et al. Personally I am fond of the points that SoulSoBreezy makes.

Guess we will never find out why Blizzard doesn't consult them. Or any other gaming studio that royally fucks up and tanks MMOs on a scale greater than Blizzard.

Frankly blizzard doesn't even need those people in this case... this is literally a repeat of the same exact design philosophy they've been pushing for the past 2 xpacs and both times they got the same push back and have had to give in one area while finding another way to shoe horn the exact same issues in another area.

They don't need any of these voices for this, they should be learning from their own past mistakes. They should be able to recognize it by now, I have no doubt in my mind there are devs currently working on this system pulling their hair out because they know exactly how its going to go but whoever ultimately calls the shots decided this is how its going to be.

[Tesshin20]

I only entered the discussion in the past page or so, so I apologize if you have to repeat previous points.

I will only add that there's a REAL problem with the PUG community when it comes to "optimal" or meta builds determining who gets invited and who doesn't. When a player gets denied an invite because they're playing the "wrong" build, then they never get the opportunity to show that raid that they're actually a good player. You can't deny that this is a thing that happens even today. It's rampant, and I honestly hate it. I have zero doubts that this will extend to include covenants as well.

I guess when it comes down to it, I just don't trust Blizzard's ability to make the Covenant abilities close enough to each other to avoid this problem. They haven't EVER been good at that. And the community will take that disparity and use it to fabricate a meta that has no real basis in reality.

Blizzard attempting to make choices "meaningful" is in direct conflict with the reality of how their community actually plays the game. If they make it too impactful, then the line that divides optimal and "wrong" covenant widens. If they make it too close, it becomes homogenized and loses all sense of being meaningful. My biggest concern is that they're digging in their heels with the attempt to make it "meaningful", and are ignoring the realities of what that entails.

- - - Updated - - -



That's because it all too often is the case. Are you familiar with the phrase: "Gear Check" ? This is a thing that regularly happens in WoW. It's built into the game.

I didn't say that skill makes no difference at all. Otherwise the race to world first would simply be one of collecting gear instead of coordination and execution. But to pretend that gear isn't a MAJOR(if not the primary) factor in performance in WoW is not being objective.




The problem is that "people like me" have been pushing for these kinds of things for literal years, if not decades. Blizzard doesn't listen. They aren't listening now. Not even to top end-players who have the weight of being cutting edge professional WoW players. They did this with Legion legendaries. They did it again with Azerite traits. Now they're doing it with covenants.

I am fully aware of gear check. But even as a mythic raider, 8 out 10 fights aren't gear check fights. The 95% of the playerbase will never encounter a fight where they die due to an enrage timer.

- - - Updated - - -

The "game should never be designed around min-maxers in any case" thing is silly frankly. Who should mythic raids or high end M+ or PvP be designed around? What's the point of all these RPG systems like gear and talents etc if not to min-max around them? etc etc. Its a core facet of what these games are about, you don't kill the boss to get better gear to keep wearing the worse gear because you like it better, that's not how the game loop in these kinds of games is designed.

No its not silly. And people like you who try to ruin the game for others should stop pretending so with silly arguments like that.

Mythic raiding and 15+ keys are designed for the upper 5%. Evidenced that only 5% of the player base participate in that content. The rest has no interest in it. The point of gear and talent is personal customization, choice and adaption, not only for the ability to be optimal (which is a silly and utopian concept in itself) but for lore, roleplaying or just flavour and fun it self. Not every thing in the game is enjoyed by min-maxing. Please stop pretending min-maxing is the only fun anyone can have in the game.

That said you absolutely shouldn't always be designing around min-maxing either, but of course when they design a player power related system they design it around playing that system...

Thats an insane contradiction. If they would design it around min-maxing, it would looke entirely different. They design it with fun and rpg in mind, because thats what they should do, because most people don't care about min-maxing.

The covenant debate isn't about min-maxers though, that's the fallacy people keep increasingly putting forward. Everything only matters to the evil top player 1%-er who is trying to ruin the game for everyone else. Despite that the way this system is designed affects everyone, the average player more than the "top player", and designing it in this way benefits none of them.

Hence the best defense people being able to come up with being the contentious aspects "not mattering" to players as opposed to anything being positive about this design.

And Ion claiming that this will somehow help the pug issue, which I can't fathom how he came to that conclusion.

Wrong again. This myth that what is important to the 1% affects everyone is a notion that has to be stopped parroting. I have mythic raided a lot and I don't anymore as its not worth the time investment. I don't min-max at all. Nothing what the 1% currently is worried about affects me at all. You can actually choose to not get by affected by things like this. Or you can choose to be affected by it, like some people will eventually do, just to say "I told you so" in an argument. Its silly.

Then you didn't understand his point. There was nothing with his statement on that specific topic. Its not even worth repeating because its so evident.

Except (as we can see on the beta) they're already failing that.

Also... its literally the same issue they created in legion with talents where we'd have pure aoe talents next to pure single target talents on the same row. This created really stale binary non-meaningful choices. They're repeating that exact same mistake with this... except worse because you can't swap it on the fly. A design by the way, that they ended up reverting and moving talents around so that rows were themed again because it worked out so poorly.

Someone really has this idea in their head and is just dying to make it work despite it repeatedly failing every time they try. They don't seem to understand that its fundamentally flawed.



Frankly blizzard doesn't even need those people in this case... this is literally a repeat of the same exact design philosophy they've been pushing for the past 2 xpacs and both times they got the same push back and have had to give in one area while finding another way to shoe horn the exact same issues in another area.

They don't need any of these voices for this, they should be learning from their own past mistakes. They should be able to recognize it by now, I have no doubt in my mind there are devs currently working on this system pulling their hair out because they know exactly how its going to go but whoever ultimately calls the shots decided this is how its going to be.

Just because you do not like a specific decision they have done. Doesn't mean they are failing anything. Its just out of your taste.

[Echo of Soul]

Imagine thinking that meaningful choice = what's most powerful

LOL

[Toybox]

Kinda stupid becouse its like asking to swap into different class abilities becouse you want experiment and have fun with other skills. And allowing this would completly ruin entire game. Just like it would ruin covenants.

We need to move away from the idea that it's a sub-class or something that grandiose. It's a talent, nothing more, nothing less, & the idea of having one talent locked in for 2 years with the only alternative being "well just make an alt" dropping a character you've grown attached to over the past however many years? Bleh, honestly.

Like I said, I just want to experiment for fun moreso than anything else, as I know I'm pretty much going to be playing Condemn for raiding anyway... It's just boring. Like I said, I've been on beta for months at this point, so I'm getting it all out of my system

[Tesshin20]

The people who accurately predicted the flaws with the past 20 systems during alpha beta of the previous expansions.




I am in no way suggesting some sort of group mind or community driven poll to figure oit a solution via communism or democratic popularity vote.

But there ARE "professional" gamers who operate at a hich enough level, with enough experience in the game to identify bad decisions. Top end arena players. Mythic raid progression players. M+ key pushers on the cutting edge.

I know I'll get flack for this, but when even people like Preach, Bellular, and...god help me....Asmongold....all agree on the same critical points with professional gamers, it seems like maybe that's a good indication that Blizzard should reconsider their stance.

But whoever they listen too, it can't be worse than the echo chamber that's resulted in the deep flaws of the systems in Legion and BfA.

Accurately? Really. They didn't like it to their own specific narrowminded expectations and they was screaming and yelling and Blizzard wrongly caved in. That's Blizzard being coward and doing a bad decision.

"Professional" gamers will advocate what is in THEIR OWN competitive interests. Not anyone else. Almost all the things they want is in direct conflict what the majority of the playerbase and the casual gamer wants.

The reason they "agree" is that they say what ever they have to say to get views and make money. Controversy and negativity sells. Thats the whole point. There is nothing factual behind it other than "this out of my taste".

I wish people like you understood that what you considered to be flawed is just your own opinion, and its not reflective in anyway how the actual playerbase feel. This is proven by the fact that 3-4 million people still enjoy and play the game and 90% arent agreeing with you nor complain about said systems.

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We need to move away from the idea that it's a sub-class or something that grandiose. It's a talent, nothing more, nothing less, & the idea of having one talent locked in for 2 years with the only alternative being "well just make an alt" dropping a character you've grown attached to over the past however many years? Bleh, honestly.

Ye god forbid that there is 1 thing about your character that is actually so "permanent" that you need 2 week cooldown to change it.