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  1. #21
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auberdeen View Post
    i thought "Zorvaal the Jailer" and "The Jailer" are two different entities?
    Based on the new VO lines from the Primus, it would seem as not. He refers to the Jailer and Zovaal as the same entity.

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  2. #22
    Zorvaal was the jailer's name prior to being confined in the maw by the elders.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    nathrezim were demons originally before the legion as chronicles stated so saying using we never saw them before legion doesn't really work as we know sargeras hunted and imprisoned nathrezims in his pantheon days and you have no real indication that dreadlords changed under sargeras.... and them being demons from the start when they die they wouldn't go into the shadowlands and having primus call zovaal his brother would make no sense if your theory is correct and lastly your theory conflicts so much with chronicles here as chronicles stated nathrezim spawned from twisting nether and we don't see them use death magic that much they use more void and fel which too would make no sense.
    The titans may have jsut thought they where demons given how they look. Its understandable if Sargeras did that aswell. Its still quite possible the Natherezim hail from the venthyr or the other way around(especially with all the pointers towards that in shadowlands)

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Harbour View Post
    So you discard the whole theory and explanation because of highlited "nath". It wasnt even the foundation of theory, more like some interesting detail that may or may not be relevant. I will remove it now btw.
    It was the part that most stood out to me. :-)

    Anyway, I don't think the theory is the wrongest that any theory could ever be, at this point just from the presence of Shadowmourne and The Helm of Domination we know that there's a connection to the Shadowlands that I believe has been said that the Dreadlords obtained the sword and helm from there and gave it to KJ who fused in the soul of Ner'Zul into the helm.

    So it very well could be that he's the progenitor of the Dreadlords and maybe the crime the jailer was sent to the Maw for was that he was sending his agents - the dreadlords - into other realms to obtain anima for the Shadowlands and himself in particular upsetting the balance but was stopped by the 4 other founders before it could go too far.

    However using just a character model in a game of bipedal character models where they also just tend to put spikes on everything feels like an attempt at an aesthetic association, but I get that it's fun to make the connection as we wait for lore that would either corroborate your feelings giving you the "Yes! I knew it!" moment or says you're wrong and you're just out 30 minutes of writing something on MMO-champ.

    Either way, it's a fun theory, I just think it's a thin one.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    The titans may have jsut thought they where demons given how they look. Its understandable if Sargeras did that aswell. Its still quite possible the Natherezim hail from the venthyr or the other way around(especially with all the pointers towards that in shadowlands)
    They are filled with fel energy not death energy as ONLY demons get banished to twisting nether when they die and dreadlords do that and lastly we see the so rarely use pure death magic its just a strech they use mostly void or fel. Lastly it was never specified dreadlords changed in any way when sargeras gave them his fel.

    Pointers are extremely thing as we have seen nathrezim be able to leave twisting nether far more easily than any other demons so we can just assume dreadlord stealing plate of the damned was their specialiy.

    Only thing which little bit imply nathrezim having same origin is name sire denathrius and his title lord of the dread but with that logic tichondrius originates from void having the title "the darkener" lastly similiar kind of names don't really prove anything castle nathria and vampiric magic is by users of death, fel and void so that too isn't really a prove. I don't mean to say this theory can't be true just thats these are not that hard of a evidence.

    As if jailer originated from nathreza a planet inside twisting nether he must be demonic in nature and he doesn't show even one bit of demonic nature.
    Last edited by Terongor; 2020-09-06 at 05:46 PM.

  6. #26
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    What I think: Current Blizzard writers kinda ignored that the old writers had already confirmed Dreadlords were a race of natural demons from before Sargeras created the Burning Legion, now they're trying to pull this 62D plan that has been in execution all this time and that Dreadlords never were actually Demons but somehow related to the Death Realm despite the fact they started by announcing this expansion as having entities that haven't had any involvement with things till now in any respect (not the first time they've gone back on their statements) and they're trying desperately to link them into the old lore by scuppering all semblance of consistency.

    Is the Jailer a Nathrezim? Maybe, It's all just ass pull "It was actually always this" lore now with little consideration for prior world building and lack of any desire to build and provide hints towards new revelations for Old lore before said revelation is just dumped with little worth or work towards interesting new lore that doesn't require destroying what came before.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    They are filled with fel energy not death energy as ONLY demons get banished to twisting nether when they die and dreadlords do that and lastly we see the so rarely use pure death magic its just a strech they use mostly void or fel. Lastly it was never specified dreadlords changed in any way when sargeras gave them his fel.

    Pointers are extremely thing as we have seen nathrezim be able to leave twisting nether far more easily than any other demons so we can just assume dreadlord stealing plate of the damned was their specialiy.

    Only thing which little bit imply nathrezim having same origin is name sire denathrius and his title lord of the dread but with that logic tichondrius originates from void having the title "the darkener" lastly similiar kind of names don't really prove anything castle nathria and vampiric magic is by users of death, fel and void so that too isn't really a prove. I don't mean to say this theory can't be true just thats these are not that hard of a evidence.

    As if jailer originated from nathreza a planet inside twisting nether he must be demonic in nature and he doesn't show even one bit of demonic nature.
    You dont have to be born a demon, you can be made a demon. Besides that its pretty obvious that ventyr are new lore. Expanded upon the old. its not like they had the burning legion and the venthyr fleshed out in wc3

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    You dont have to be born a demon, you can be made a demon. Besides that its pretty obvious that ventyr are new lore. Expanded upon the old. its not like they had the burning legion and the venthyr fleshed out in wc3
    Not fleshed out, true, but there are some inconsistencies regardless. The issue isn’t with their origin per se but with how their presence works with how the Lich King’s legacy will function this expansion. The Nathrezim are inherently very powerful in WC3, can control the scourge without any artifact, etc.

    I don’t think whatever they introduce will work with what we’ve been shown, at least enough so that the changes aren’t obvious. That being said, Warcraft has never cared for this, even between the RTS games.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldielocks View Post
    Not fleshed out, true, but there are some inconsistencies regardless. The issue isn’t with their origin per se but with how their presence works with how the Lich King’s legacy will function this expansion. The Nathrezim are inherently very powerful in WC3, can control the scourge without any artifact, etc.

    I don’t think whatever they introduce will work with what we’ve been shown, at least enough so that the changes aren’t obvious. That being said, Warcraft has never cared for this, even between the RTS games.
    they 100% need to retcon some wc3 stuff.

    I'm not a part of the camp that thinks that has to be a bad thing tho

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    You dont have to be born a demon, you can be made a demon. Besides that its pretty obvious that ventyr are new lore. Expanded upon the old. its not like they had the burning legion and the venthyr fleshed out in wc3
    The whole race was demonic before sargeras and its usually it needs a creature of immense power in fel to turn entire race into demons like sargeras and we have no indication of such creature in fel being there before sargeras.... also ulthalesh most powerful dreadlord and who forced all demons in marduum to serve him until sargeras freed them and then ulthalesh was in small minority to oppose sargeras and he most likely was the leader of dreadlords so it would make no sense for him to do if he served zovaal.

    Its more likely the race who is behind that message is the brokers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    they 100% need to retcon some wc3 stuff.

    I'm not a part of the camp that thinks that has to be a bad thing tho
    They did read chronicles 3 they retconned alot of stuff and what was planned and needed for shadowlands.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldielocks View Post
    Not fleshed out, true, but there are some inconsistencies regardless. The issue isn’t with their origin per se but with how their presence works with how the Lich King’s legacy will function this expansion. The Nathrezim are inherently very powerful in WC3, can control the scourge without any artifact, etc.

    I don’t think whatever they introduce will work with what we’ve been shown, at least enough so that the changes aren’t obvious. That being said, Warcraft has never cared for this, even between the RTS games.
    We have Warcraft 1 necrolytes who were taugh by legion to do it and in few mentions they used either void or fel to reanimate the dead bodies so being able to control or make undeads isn't only death powers.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Terongor View Post
    snip
    What do you think the connection between the venthyr and the Nathrezim is then?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    What do you think the connection between the venthyr and the Nathrezim is then?
    We really don't know honestly we don't have enough data to say anything yet but there is still a possibility its a coincidance so yeah...

  13. #33
    Herald of the Titans
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    Got some Nathrezim vibes here for sure.


  14. #34
    Zovaal is the Nathreza World Soul/Titan, I think it is pretty clear at this point which means Nathreza could exist in one of 2 places, the Twisting Nether or the Shadowlands which would also explain why Draka was able to go to their planet.
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  15. #35
    Banned KALAMITY's Avatar
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    Blizzard taking the "_____ is really a dreadlord" meme too literally nowadays.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Auberdeen View Post
    i thought "Zorvaal the Jailer" and "The Jailer" are two different entities?
    They are one in the same, which makes it look more and more like he was the one in control of Arthas the whole time and the reason he wanted to strip his humanity away fully so he would be an avatar in the living world. It looks like the Twisting Nether was the gateway to the world of the living from the Shadowlands which is how the Dreadlords took it and got it to Azeroth. If they are still loyal to Zovaal it makes it even more likely this was some kind of long game plan and that he is the Nathreza World Soul/Titan.
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  17. #37
    Mechagnome Archmage Xaxxas's Avatar
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    Jailer has 4 Fingers and a Thumb on each hand. Total of 5 digits per hand


    Nathrezim iconically have 3 massive Fingers and 1 Thumb on each hand. Total of 4 digits per hand.


    Not looking in favor of this theory considering the consistency until now if it were the case.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage Xaxxas View Post
    Jailer has 4 Fingers and a Thumb on each hand. Total of 5 digits per hand
    https://i.imgur.com/PdSu8r2.png

    Nathrezim iconically have 3 massive Fingers and 1 Thumb on each hand. Total of 4 digits per hand.
    https://i.imgur.com/XkKZRrP.png

    Not looking in favor of this theory considering the consistency until now if it were the case.
    To be fair Denathrius, who has a lot of connections to the Nathrezim, has 4 fingers and a thumb as well.
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  19. #39
    Mechagnome Archmage Xaxxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    To be fair Denathrius, who has a lot of connections to the Nathrezim, has 4 fingers and a thumb as well.
    Good call, didn't think about that. I do have a hunch that could be because he uses the Draenei animation set? Thus the switch from 4 to 3 would end up pretty wonky without some extra work.
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  20. #40
    Banned KALAMITY's Avatar
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    So any merit to the belief that Zovaal functioned as the "Arbiter" role before being imprisoned in the Maw? Would make sense why he has a hole in his chest and the *current* Arbiter has whatever that is.


    In a Discord channel I'm in they were discussing it and somebody presented a theory that Zovaal was originally (or still is?) one of the "Eternal Ones" - or "Pantheon of Death" - and probably functioned as what the Arbiter does now.


    Mix in getting caught doing something with bad intentions, he gets imprisoned in the Maw, and his power to judge souls is moved to the Arbiter. Of course this doesn't explain the Arbiter's current lore but it was just a theory.

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