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  1. #1

    The "flow" of sub rogues in shadowlands

    I have mained assassination rogue after the horrible outlaw rogue came with Legion. I love Assassination, but after a few hours in the shadowlands beta, i tested sub. I want to hear if i am just seeing it from "everything is greener on the other side" eyes, but sub just flow really well. I really like how i swap between stealth and not, its not to much to do, but enough to keep it active.

    Do sub rogues or other rogues in here feel the same? Have they "fixed" sub rogues to make it a very enjoyable pve spec?

  2. #2
    I get a general feeling that "our time has come" for sub in SL. My guess (purely guessing here) is that it will have good synergy (Im thinking necrolords) that will make it at least very interesting for both pve and pvp. I cant see assa leaving us either and I have no idea what will outlaw do I haven't played it at all in BfA. Preliminary readings make me think that sub is actually an option in SL. Very hopeful.
    WoW forums in a nutshell:
    m8 i've been around since Feb 2005, I know it all.
    So I was using a gold dupe hack. I don't know why i was banned for this. It is so unfair.
    People need an incentive to play content. "Its fun!" is simply not enough.

  3. #3
    well maybe if they sent me a beta invite i might have something to say about sub flow.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    I get a general feeling that "our time has come" for sub in SL. My guess (purely guessing here) is that it will have good synergy (Im thinking necrolords) that will make it at least very interesting for both pve and pvp. I cant see assa leaving us either and I have no idea what will outlaw do I haven't played it at all in BfA. Preliminary readings make me think that sub is actually an option in SL. Very hopeful.
    once (or if) we get to use 2 legendaries, nightfey will be massive.

    you have as sub specific:

    Deathly Shadows
    Waist or Legs
    Requires Rogue
    Vanish grants 5 combo points and increases all damage dealt by 15% for 10 sec.

    and as general rogue one:

    Mark of the Master Assassin
    Wrist or Finger
    Requires Rogue
    While Stealth is active and for 5 sec after breaking Stealth, your Critical Strike chance is increased by 100%.

    with 2 vanish every 2 minutes and 2 dances via Enveloping Shadows, you can have a double-legendary-buffed dance twice in 30 sec for the first 2 symbols.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    I get a general feeling that "our time has come" for sub in SL. My guess (purely guessing here) is that it will have good synergy (Im thinking necrolords) that will make it at least very interesting for both pve and pvp. I cant see assa leaving us either and I have no idea what will outlaw do I haven't played it at all in BfA. Preliminary readings make me think that sub is actually an option in SL. Very hopeful.
    ok. here is my theory:

    as in the last 4 xpacs, same as usual will happen:
    - sub starts great
    - sub gets nerfed to the ground, before .1 even is out
    - assa will remain as the top notch spec 90% of xpac
    - rest get the garbage location.
    - combat/outlaw for m+ full aoe
    - sub is dead

    reasons:

    - as always for all other pure dps classes blizz just get 1 spec top notch balanced. rest is garbage, cause 36 specs.
    - as always, blizz get assa easy „balanced“ (if you will call it so), so no investment/effort
    - blizz not changed or overhauled rogue that much, that they can go „sorry all assa rogues out there, you have to play sub now“. so they do not wanna piss off all the assa players. typical conservative blizz stance.

    in short:

    short time after release assa will be king, outlaw for m+, sub dead. thats my prognosis. just my oppinion.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-09-06 at 01:24 PM.

  6. #6
    So you guys say Night Fae for primarily pvp and m+?

    I also tend to agree that devs are scared of sub because it has very big control. I would love to play sub again though so I’m hopeful.

    The night fae attributes I read above are very very interesting.
    WoW forums in a nutshell:
    m8 i've been around since Feb 2005, I know it all.
    So I was using a gold dupe hack. I don't know why i was banned for this. It is so unfair.
    People need an incentive to play content. "Its fun!" is simply not enough.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Narzok View Post
    While Stealth is active and for 5 sec after breaking Stealth, your Critical Strike chance is increased by 100%.

    with 2 vanish every 2 minutes and 2 dances via Enveloping Shadows, you can have a double-legendary-buffed dance twice in 30 sec for the first 2 symbols.

    Also (in PVP) you can choose the talent "Thief Bargain" which greatly reduces Vanish's cooldown.
    I don't particularly like spending my Vanish to improve damage ... but it's a good idea.

    I love the Subtlety spec. I find this much more enjoyable to play than assassination. However, I can't wait to test this opener with assassination:
    * Choose Necrolord to have the Serrated Bone spike ability:

    - Cheap Shot
    - S. Bone Spike.
    - Garrote
    - Rupture
    - Marked for Death
    - Kidney + internal Bleeding
    - Exsanguinate.

    I'm not a Theorycraft ... but I think this Opener is enough to kill a lot of people ...
    Last edited by Fantazma; 2020-09-06 at 05:08 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    So you guys say Night Fae for primarily pvp and m+?

    I also tend to agree that devs are scared of sub because it has very big control. I would love to play sub again though so I’m hopeful.

    The night fae attributes I read above are very very interesting.
    I think NightFae will be better for Raid.

    Sepsis
    Infect the target’s blood, dealing Nature damage over 10 seconds. If the target survives its full duration, they suffer additional damage and you Vanish from sight. Cooldown reduced by 60 seconds if Sepsis does not last its full duration.
    What's absurdly good about Sepsis is the free vanish lining up with our leggos. If the target dies we get no free vanish, and it just becomes a 30second extra dot. We even lose that extra damage at the end. It will require testing, but almost certainly if you are using Mantle and/or Deathly Shadows Sepsis will be more desirable if the target doesn't die.

    The only thing that I would want to test is if Sepsis does run it's full duration and that extra tick of "additional damage" kills the target, if that still procs a vanish that may be a pretty sweet deal.

    Still I think bonespike will be go to for M+ because of how damage stacks with it.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Proper Ninja View Post
    well maybe if they sent me a beta invite i might have something to say about sub flow.
    It's okay. We don't need your feedback

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    ok. here is my theory:

    as in the last 4 xpacs, same as usual will happen:
    - sub starts great
    - sub gets nerfed to the ground, before .1 even is out
    - assa will remain as the top notch spec 90% of xpac
    - rest get the garbage location.
    - combat/outlaw for m+ full aoe
    - sub is dead

    reasons:

    - as always for all other pure dps classes blizz just get 1 spec top notch balanced. rest is garbage, cause 36 specs.
    - as always, blizz get assa easy „balanced“ (if you will call it so), so no investment/effort
    - blizz not changed or overhauled rogue that much, that they can go „sorry all assa rogues out there, you have to play sub now“. so they do not wanna piss off all the assa players. typical conservative blizz stance.

    in short:

    short time after release assa will be king, outlaw for m+, sub dead. thats my prognosis. just my oppinion.
    This had nothing to do with what i wrote.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    I think NightFae will be better for Raid.



    What's absurdly good about Sepsis is the free vanish lining up with our leggos. If the target dies we get no free vanish, and it just becomes a 30second extra dot. We even lose that extra damage at the end. It will require testing, but almost certainly if you are using Mantle and/or Deathly Shadows Sepsis will be more desirable if the target doesn't die.

    The only thing that I would want to test is if Sepsis does run it's full duration and that extra tick of "additional damage" kills the target, if that still procs a vanish that may be a pretty sweet deal.

    Still I think bonespike will be go to for M+ because of how damage stacks with it.

    Atm bones is better for raiding, but depends on the damage tuning. It does a fair amount of damage atm... Spesis is not that far behind, but currently there are some bugs from time to time. For example if Spesis give you "vanish" but if you take Premeditation talent, the 2 extra combo points from SS are not rewarded... Not sure if it's intentional or bugged.
    Atm also testing if Shadow Focus talents awards the 20% less energy when vanished through sepsis, as I had some issues with that last patch.

    As to your question regarding you getting a vanish when it's the extra dmg that kills the mob: not that I could see so far. hard to try that out but didn't happen to me yet so far.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Azantrox View Post
    Atm bones is better for raiding, but depends on the damage tuning. It does a fair amount of damage atm... Spesis is not that far behind, but currently there are some bugs from time to time. For example if Spesis give you "vanish" but if you take Premeditation talent, the 2 extra combo points from SS are not rewarded... Not sure if it's intentional or bugged.
    Atm also testing if Shadow Focus talents awards the 20% less energy when vanished through sepsis, as I had some issues with that last patch.

    As to your question regarding you getting a vanish when it's the extra dmg that kills the mob: not that I could see so far. hard to try that out but didn't happen to me yet so far.
    note that Premeditation is active during dance, and needs 2-3 seconds to "recharge", so if you just used SS during dance, you don't get Premeditation via Vanish/Sepsis.
    The above mentioned remarks, ideas and notions are simply my thought on this topic. I do not wish to aggravate, denounce or criticize anyone who, for whatever reason, may disagree.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Proper Ninja View Post
    well maybe if they sent me a beta invite i might have something to say about sub flow.
    or you just go on the damn PTR ?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Azantrox View Post
    Atm bones is better for raiding, but depends on the damage tuning. It does a fair amount of damage atm... Spesis is not that far behind, but currently there are some bugs from time to time. For example if Spesis give you "vanish" but if you take Premeditation talent, the 2 extra combo points from SS are not rewarded... Not sure if it's intentional or bugged.
    Atm also testing if Shadow Focus talents awards the 20% less energy when vanished through sepsis, as I had some issues with that last patch.

    As to your question regarding you getting a vanish when it's the extra dmg that kills the mob: not that I could see so far. hard to try that out but didn't happen to me yet so far.
    I imagine it would be stupidly difficult to test out, but thank you for trying anyway. It's those little interactions that really make skills OP or not I find.

  15. #15
    I want to play sub but I feel the dev team are so arrogant and incompetent they will find a way to keep it bad. They have far too much pride to ever admit that the spec played better for years until Legion and their braindead idea to give it charges and near 100% uptime.

    Reminds me of the whole situation with devs fucking with shadow word: death, a simple but iconic pvp ability that they spent years botching rather than admit it worked better previously.

  16. #16
    Sub might be both fun and good right now, but it won't be a few weeks after launch. That leaves me stuck with assa/outlaw again, which is why I'm considering rerolling for the first time since vanilla...

  17. #17
    Sub feels great. Better than Sin by a mile. SnD feels pretty janky as assassination without the auto-refresh.

    Plan is Necrolord to start, with Master Assassin legendary - Just in case they tank Sub or Akkari's again - Mantle works in every situation for a "Safe" first legendary. If I have to switch to Sin, the legendary works just fine, and you can swap with complete ease. If you aren't going Necro, you'll be going Night Fae early on.

    It's actually a much "Safer" class with this system than most. You can jump between Necrolord and Nightfae and Sin/Sub with absolutely zero effort. You aren't doing that on a mage, and on many other classes.
    Last edited by Wheeler; 2020-09-20 at 09:33 AM.

  18. #18
    sub is a very solid choice as it is now for st

    sad thing is how besides necrolord bone spike all other covenants feel underwhelming , especially the echoing reprimand , who ever thought of that. they could go and make it : you do x dmg , you apply a debuff that increases the dmg of next finisher, no need for that silly combo point thing. as for slaughter it could work for sub pvp with shadowdance but besides that its useless in pve.
    Last edited by niztheundead87; 2020-09-20 at 10:09 AM.

  19. #19
    As it stands, Sub is at least fun. Which is more that can be said for the entirety of the spec from late Legion to BfA in its whole run.

    Possible issues (tested on the max level realm, I'm a lore fag and want to go questing as unspoiled as possible):
    • Legendaries. Akaari is basically the only viable first pick, but it will be nerfed, or has to be before SL launches. Mantle is a great second pick, and given the Legion lessons could be better to focus on a strong but not top tier one to avoid massive nerfs.
    • Covenants. Necrolords' Bone Spike is beyond busted. The physical infinite dot is problematic for a number of reasons, and could see it nerfed. Venthyr is overall stronger than Necrolords as a covenant, conduits included, at the cost of the main ability being not that strong. But what's been said for the legendaries applies here aswell.
    • Premeditation. This thing allows Slice and Dice to never be cast and reaching upwards to 5 minutes of duration, without any given input from the player. @shoegazing will forgive me for taking back my stance on the matter, but if this has to be the return of the ability I'd rather it being the old 2cp off the global. It will be gutted badly as it stands, either Premed or SnD.

  20. #20
    How good is mantle going to be with the sub build where you're in SD 95% of the time, I haven't been following beta rogue too much my rogue is still like 52 in bastion.

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