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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Yeah, makes sense to not have it given FW. My bad. Yet it sounds better than SnD at least for me. It's a very thin line though.
    It's the same old argument basically: there are changes needed, for sure. But not the ones pushed, which albeit not the ones the userbase would like, surely move things forward for classes and specs.
    However for the proposed changes of said classes and specs there would be the need of a rework akin to what Shadowpriests got. And those require work.

    ...and I sometimes fear the dev team left in charge of WoW doesn't have in them to do such a momentous task more than once or twice, without flunking the rest. And I don't want to sound bitter, but I do remember when I looked forward to expansion changes and sometimes patches too.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    It's the same old argument basically: there are changes needed, for sure. But not the ones pushed, which albeit not the ones the userbase would like, surely move things forward for classes and specs.
    However for the proposed changes of said classes and specs there would be the need of a rework akin to what Shadowpriests got. And those require work.

    ...and I sometimes fear the dev team left in charge of WoW doesn't have in them to do such a momentous task more than once or twice, without flunking the rest. And I don't want to sound bitter, but I do remember when I looked forward to expansion changes and sometimes patches too.
    those days are gone its what ever blizzard wants the professional wow players to do now. days of having fun with rogue are dead.
    professional gaming killed wow

  3. #43
    I've heard it's like end of Cata/early WoD again, which was god tier.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Stened91 View Post
    I have mained assassination rogue after the horrible outlaw rogue came with Legion. I love Assassination, but after a few hours in the shadowlands beta, i tested sub. I want to hear if i am just seeing it from "everything is greener on the other side" eyes, but sub just flow really well. I really like how i swap between stealth and not, its not to much to do, but enough to keep it active.

    Do sub rogues or other rogues in here feel the same? Have they "fixed" sub rogues to make it a very enjoyable pve spec?
    From a PvE perspective, Shadowlands Subtlety is probably the most fun I've ever had playing a rogue. I can't speak from a PvP perspective, but from what I've seen in passing there seems to be quite a few people claiming the sky is falling.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    From a PvE perspective, Shadowlands Subtlety is probably the most fun I've ever had playing a rogue. I can't speak from a PvP perspective, but from what I've seen in passing there seems to be quite a few people claiming the sky is falling.
    Sky has fallen way worse than where it currently is, believe me.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    That needs to be removed ... all it does is cause balancing issues. 1 SD is how the spec should be.
    I hope they don't. It is about time the spec has some type of fun and flare to it. Believe it or not, NOT every ability makes the spec overpowered.
    Shadow deserves nothing, the same as Fire Mages.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggressive View Post
    I hope they don't. It is about time the spec has some type of fun and flare to it. Believe it or not, NOT every ability makes the spec overpowered.
    It's not just a "balance" issue, it's the fact that the spec remains utterly dead and hugely pruned outside of Dance.

    Subtlety used to have the base gameplay of the Rogue class, with Dance being a powerful and superbly exciting cooldown available at a 1minute Cadence.

    So you would use the base Rogue kit to cover gaps in your rotation, pool energy, refresh various buffs and modifiers, leading into your next Dance window.

    Now Dance is the entire gameplay. That's it. You do nothing else.

    This resulted in the pruning of all of the base Rogue concepts, which is bad enough. Also bad is the fact that this didn't make Dance better, it made Dance worse, because Dance is available all of the damn time it necessarily isn't as impactful or exciting. They tried to bring the excitement of Dance into the base rotation; instead they brought they mundane-ness of a base rotation into Dance.

    The variation in gameplay has suffered tragically due to this stupid, idiotic Legion design paradigm.

    Let's face it, just about the only people who like Legion/post-Legion Subtlety are the raidloggers who don't participate in any other content, or people with an extremely casual mindset that aren't thinking on an involved level about optimizing their gameplay ("haha purple particle shadow magic go brrrr"). For just about everybody else, the new design direction is a tremendous loss of what was probably the most mechanically unique spec in the game.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-10-07 at 08:43 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

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  8. #48
    isn't sub on beta really bugged still ? and the fast paced flow and great feel is due to talents giving way to much cd reduction? and when inevitably nerfed, it will feel like shit to play again with a lot of downtime ? thats what ive been told both in beta and a few forums atleast.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by glowpipe View Post
    isn't sub on beta really bugged still ? and the fast paced flow and great feel is due to talents giving way to much cd reduction? and when inevitably nerfed, it will feel like shit to play again with a lot of downtime ? thats what ive been told both in beta and a few forums atleast.
    Yeah, so, prior to Legion, during that "downtime" we had the entire Rogue kit to work with like Hemo/Rupture/Garrote that applies Sanguinary Veins buff, SnD that increases our energen regen via Energetic Recovery, Gouge to disrupt enemy casts and CDs or kite and get a restealth, Shiv that dispels enrages and applies a root or strong slow, Dismantle that disarms, etc etc.

    They've brought back a few of these things, not the most important one (Gouge), and they didn't bring back the mechanics that made these abilities interactive with the rest of the spec. As a result it just feels tacked on and therefore, yea, the gameplay outside of Dance remains incredibly boring and lackluster.

    Even SnD is not something that you are ever asked to think about... just spec Premed (which used to be a rewarding active ability that had multiple use cases) and not only is Premed itself a passive but it turns SnD into a passive as well (for all intents and purposes).

    I hate these devs. They are utterly inept and clueless. Nobody wants this garbage. Nobody wanted Legion garbage either outside of people who weren't Subtlety mains to begin with. Just restore the spec to how it was before Legion already, FFS. It shouldn't take 3 expansions (and counting) to admit that you were massively wrong and literally every single change except one made the spec worse (2nd Step charge is the only net positive since pre-Legion, in an otherwise astoundingly consistent record of total dogshit).
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-10-07 at 10:29 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  10. #50
    Banned Lazuli's Avatar
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    Don't forget, backstab didn't hit like a fucking wet noodle auto attack with 1 SD either. This weak ass builders shit is lame. And shadow strike (ambush) should hit hard not like a noodle. Sub is easily the worst designed spec in the game now.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    Don't forget, backstab didn't hit like a fucking wet noodle auto attack with 1 SD either. This weak ass builders shit is lame. And shadow strike (ambush) should hit hard not like a noodle. Sub is easily the worst designed spec in the game now.
    No, the core of the spec as rusted as it is still feels present in Sub's design. Here lies the frustration, it would take so little to make it decent.

    I'd give the award to Windwalkers.

  12. #52
    Banned Lazuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    No, the core of the spec as rusted as it is still feels present in Sub's design. Here lies the frustration, it would take so little to make it decent.

    I'd give the award to Windwalkers.
    WW is fine mechanically, its issues stem from horrible tuning. Sub 'tuning' is more of a distribution issue than bad dmg, it simply feels bad to use our builder when historically it has hit hard and now doesn't do shit but give CP for finisher.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    From a PvE perspective, Shadowlands Subtlety is probably the most fun I've ever had playing a rogue. I can't speak from a PvP perspective, but from what I've seen in passing there seems to be quite a few people claiming the sky is falling.
    What? Sub is arguably the strongest pvp spec in the game in shadowlands, every one is saying it's busted.

  14. #54
    Banned Lazuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    What? Sub is arguably the strongest pvp spec in the game in shadowlands, every one is saying it's busted.
    Beta tuning .. lots of shit is broken and bugged. Do you think ret burst is staying too? Would be fun lol.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    Beta tuning .. lots of shit is broken and bugged. Do you think ret burst is staying too? Would be fun lol.
    Nothing to do with what I'm saying. Sub rogues in the beta are a top pvp and pve spec. Every tier list has them as A+. Whether they go live like that or not is a whole different story.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    What? Sub is arguably the strongest pvp spec in the game in shadowlands, every one is saying it's busted.
    It's not so much about damage but tool kit. The PvP folk mostly seem to really want Gouge back? I think that's what I've gathered.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    It's not so much about damage but tool kit. The PvP folk mostly seem to really want Gouge back? I think that's what I've gathered.
    Thing is, Gouge gives Rogues a bulk of its identity: control.
    Sub Rogues could do negative damage, but with their core kit intact they can control every matchup to a T, enabling their teammates.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Yeah, so, prior to Legion, during that "downtime" we had the entire Rogue kit to work with like Hemo/Rupture/Garrote that applies Sanguinary Veins buff, SnD that increases our energen regen via Energetic Recovery, Gouge to disrupt enemy casts and CDs or kite and get a restealth, Shiv that dispels enrages and applies a root or strong slow, Dismantle that disarms, etc etc.

    They've brought back a few of these things, not the most important one (Gouge), and they didn't bring back the mechanics that made these abilities interactive with the rest of the spec. As a result it just feels tacked on and therefore, yea, the gameplay outside of Dance remains incredibly boring and lackluster.

    Even SnD is not something that you are ever asked to think about... just spec Premed (which used to be a rewarding active ability that had multiple use cases) and not only is Premed itself a passive but it turns SnD into a passive as well (for all intents and purposes).

    I hate these devs. They are utterly inept and clueless. Nobody wants this garbage. Nobody wanted Legion garbage either outside of people who weren't Subtlety mains to begin with. Just restore the spec to how it was before Legion already, FFS. It shouldn't take 3 expansions (and counting) to admit that you were massively wrong and literally every single change except one made the spec worse (2nd Step charge is the only net positive since pre-Legion, in an otherwise astoundingly consistent record of total dogshit).
    I mean, I agree. But I've been dealing with the likes of blizzard since '07/'08 so I really have grown tired of saying it

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Thing is, Gouge gives Rogues a bulk of its identity: control.
    Sub Rogues could do negative damage, but with their core kit intact they can control every matchup to a T, enabling their teammates.
    Exactly. You'd hold enough control to dictate the fight and force an enemy to play by your rules.
    And exactly that is what made it fun to play. You'd win by your ability to take control, not by your ability to press a swifty one shot macro.

    This is what is missing. Not the fact that it does or doesn't hold any power, damage, or whatever like that.
    Last edited by Evolixe; 2020-10-12 at 03:05 PM.

  19. #59
    Ok, spent some time on the dummies last night trying sub rotation/flow.

    On one side, it's really fluid, with so many combo flowing you're always using something and it feels a very active spec, so from a pure PvE/rotation standpoint, it's fine.

    On the other, they failed the design all over again. With the right talents combo you're basically in Shadow Dance 99% of the time. Which completely defeats the concept on Shadow Dance itself. You feel you're doing "normal" damage during SD and just less powerful when it isn't up, when it should be totally the opposite (fine during normal rotation and extra string during SD burst window). Which makes PvP less appealing.

    It can entirely be due to the talents i choose - a lot of this is due to the 2 stacks of SD and cd reduction when you spend combo. If i swap to full big burst ones things change but i still feel i'm not delivering all the character has to give.

    So right now it's 50/50. It's not that it doesn't work or feels bad, but it's not what Sub should be.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    It can entirely be due to the talents i choose - a lot of this is due to the 2 stacks of SD and cd reduction when you spend combo. If i swap to full big burst ones things change but i still feel i'm not delivering all the character has to give.
    I honestly found that with Dark Shadow instead of Enveloping Shadows there was a nice cadence between dance and nondance, where in the latter you prepare your Rupture and Slice and Dice so as not to have to refresh them during the burst window. So for sustained at least it can fulfil the design idea. I agree that with Enveloping Shadows it feels wrong, windows don't line up as neatly and their timing is more random.

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