The "flow" of sub rogues in shadowlands

[Ryme]

I've heard it's like end of Cata/early WoD again, which was god tier.

[Neuroticaine]

I have mained assassination rogue after the horrible outlaw rogue came with Legion. I love Assassination, but after a few hours in the shadowlands beta, i tested sub. I want to hear if i am just seeing it from "everything is greener on the other side" eyes, but sub just flow really well. I really like how i swap between stealth and not, its not to much to do, but enough to keep it active.

Do sub rogues or other rogues in here feel the same? Have they "fixed" sub rogues to make it a very enjoyable pve spec?

From a PvE perspective, Shadowlands Subtlety is probably the most fun I've ever had playing a rogue. I can't speak from a PvP perspective, but from what I've seen in passing there seems to be quite a few people claiming the sky is falling.

[Jackstraw]

From a PvE perspective, Shadowlands Subtlety is probably the most fun I've ever had playing a rogue. I can't speak from a PvP perspective, but from what I've seen in passing there seems to be quite a few people claiming the sky is falling.

Sky has fallen way worse than where it currently is, believe me.

[Aggressive]

That needs to be removed ... all it does is cause balancing issues. 1 SD is how the spec should be.

I hope they don't. It is about time the spec has some type of fun and flare to it. Believe it or not, NOT every ability makes the spec overpowered.

[shoegazing]

I hope they don't. It is about time the spec has some type of fun and flare to it. Believe it or not, NOT every ability makes the spec overpowered.

It's not just a "balance" issue, it's the fact that the spec remains utterly dead and hugely pruned outside of Dance.

Subtlety used to have the base gameplay of the Rogue class, with Dance being a powerful and superbly exciting cooldown available at a 1minute Cadence.

So you would use the base Rogue kit to cover gaps in your rotation, pool energy, refresh various buffs and modifiers, leading into your next Dance window.

Now Dance is the entire gameplay. That's it. You do nothing else.

This resulted in the pruning of all of the base Rogue concepts, which is bad enough. Also bad is the fact that this didn't make Dance better, it made Dance worse, because Dance is available all of the damn time it necessarily isn't as impactful or exciting. They tried to bring the excitement of Dance into the base rotation; instead they brought they mundane-ness of a base rotation into Dance.

The variation in gameplay has suffered tragically due to this stupid, idiotic Legion design paradigm.

Let's face it, just about the only people who like Legion/post-Legion Subtlety are the raidloggers who don't participate in any other content, or people with an extremely casual mindset that aren't thinking on an involved level about optimizing their gameplay ("haha purple particle shadow magic go brrrr"). For just about everybody else, the new design direction is a tremendous loss of what was probably the most mechanically unique spec in the game.

[glowpipe]

isn't sub on beta really bugged still ? and the fast paced flow and great feel is due to talents giving way to much cd reduction? and when inevitably nerfed, it will feel like shit to play again with a lot of downtime ? thats what ive been told both in beta and a few forums atleast.

[shoegazing]

isn't sub on beta really bugged still ? and the fast paced flow and great feel is due to talents giving way to much cd reduction? and when inevitably nerfed, it will feel like shit to play again with a lot of downtime ? thats what ive been told both in beta and a few forums atleast.

Yeah, so, prior to Legion, during that "downtime" we had the entire Rogue kit to work with like Hemo/Rupture/Garrote that applies Sanguinary Veins buff, SnD that increases our energen regen via Energetic Recovery, Gouge to disrupt enemy casts and CDs or kite and get a restealth, Shiv that dispels enrages and applies a root or strong slow, Dismantle that disarms, etc etc.

They've brought back a few of these things, not the most important one (Gouge), and they didn't bring back the mechanics that made these abilities interactive with the rest of the spec. As a result it just feels tacked on and therefore, yea, the gameplay outside of Dance remains incredibly boring and lackluster.

Even SnD is not something that you are ever asked to think about... just spec Premed (which used to be a rewarding active ability that had multiple use cases) and not only is Premed itself a passive but it turns SnD into a passive as well (for all intents and purposes).

I hate these devs. They are utterly inept and clueless. Nobody wants this garbage. Nobody wanted Legion garbage either outside of people who weren't Subtlety mains to begin with. Just restore the spec to how it was before Legion already, FFS. It shouldn't take 3 expansions (and counting) to admit that you were massively wrong and literally every single change except one made the spec worse (2nd Step charge is the only net positive since pre-Legion, in an otherwise astoundingly consistent record of total dogshit).

[Lazuli]

Don't forget, backstab didn't hit like a fucking wet noodle auto attack with 1 SD either. This weak ass builders shit is lame. And shadow strike (ambush) should hit hard not like a noodle. Sub is easily the worst designed spec in the game now.

[Jackstraw]

Don't forget, backstab didn't hit like a fucking wet noodle auto attack with 1 SD either. This weak ass builders shit is lame. And shadow strike (ambush) should hit hard not like a noodle. Sub is easily the worst designed spec in the game now.

No, the core of the spec as rusted as it is still feels present in Sub's design. Here lies the frustration, it would take so little to make it decent.

I'd give the award to Windwalkers.

[Lazuli]

No, the core of the spec as rusted as it is still feels present in Sub's design. Here lies the frustration, it would take so little to make it decent.

I'd give the award to Windwalkers.

WW is fine mechanically, its issues stem from horrible tuning. Sub 'tuning' is more of a distribution issue than bad dmg, it simply feels bad to use our builder when historically it has hit hard and now doesn't do shit but give CP for finisher.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

From a PvE perspective, Shadowlands Subtlety is probably the most fun I've ever had playing a rogue. I can't speak from a PvP perspective, but from what I've seen in passing there seems to be quite a few people claiming the sky is falling.

What? Sub is arguably the strongest pvp spec in the game in shadowlands, every one is saying it's busted.

[Lazuli]

What? Sub is arguably the strongest pvp spec in the game in shadowlands, every one is saying it's busted.

Beta tuning .. lots of shit is broken and bugged. Do you think ret burst is staying too? Would be fun lol.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Beta tuning .. lots of shit is broken and bugged. Do you think ret burst is staying too? Would be fun lol.

Nothing to do with what I'm saying. Sub rogues in the beta are a top pvp and pve spec. Every tier list has them as A+. Whether they go live like that or not is a whole different story.

[Neuroticaine]

What? Sub is arguably the strongest pvp spec in the game in shadowlands, every one is saying it's busted.

It's not so much about damage but tool kit. The PvP folk mostly seem to really want Gouge back? I think that's what I've gathered.

[Jackstraw]

It's not so much about damage but tool kit. The PvP folk mostly seem to really want Gouge back? I think that's what I've gathered.

Thing is, Gouge gives Rogues a bulk of its identity: control.
Sub Rogues could do negative damage, but with their core kit intact they can control every matchup to a T, enabling their teammates.

[Evolixe]

Yeah, so, prior to Legion, during that "downtime" we had the entire Rogue kit to work with like Hemo/Rupture/Garrote that applies Sanguinary Veins buff, SnD that increases our energen regen via Energetic Recovery, Gouge to disrupt enemy casts and CDs or kite and get a restealth, Shiv that dispels enrages and applies a root or strong slow, Dismantle that disarms, etc etc.

They've brought back a few of these things, not the most important one (Gouge), and they didn't bring back the mechanics that made these abilities interactive with the rest of the spec. As a result it just feels tacked on and therefore, yea, the gameplay outside of Dance remains incredibly boring and lackluster.

Even SnD is not something that you are ever asked to think about... just spec Premed (which used to be a rewarding active ability that had multiple use cases) and not only is Premed itself a passive but it turns SnD into a passive as well (for all intents and purposes).

I hate these devs. They are utterly inept and clueless. Nobody wants this garbage. Nobody wanted Legion garbage either outside of people who weren't Subtlety mains to begin with. Just restore the spec to how it was before Legion already, FFS. It shouldn't take 3 expansions (and counting) to admit that you were massively wrong and literally every single change except one made the spec worse (2nd Step charge is the only net positive since pre-Legion, in an otherwise astoundingly consistent record of total dogshit).

I mean, I agree. But I've been dealing with the likes of blizzard since '07/'08 so I really have grown tired of saying it

Thing is, Gouge gives Rogues a bulk of its identity: control.
Sub Rogues could do negative damage, but with their core kit intact they can control every matchup to a T, enabling their teammates.

Exactly. You'd hold enough control to dictate the fight and force an enemy to play by your rules.
And exactly that is what made it fun to play. You'd win by your ability to take control, not by your ability to press a swifty one shot macro.

This is what is missing. Not the fact that it does or doesn't hold any power, damage, or whatever like that.

[Coldkil]

Ok, spent some time on the dummies last night trying sub rotation/flow.

On one side, it's really fluid, with so many combo flowing you're always using something and it feels a very active spec, so from a pure PvE/rotation standpoint, it's fine.

On the other, they failed the design all over again. With the right talents combo you're basically in Shadow Dance 99% of the time. Which completely defeats the concept on Shadow Dance itself. You feel you're doing "normal" damage during SD and just less powerful when it isn't up, when it should be totally the opposite (fine during normal rotation and extra string during SD burst window). Which makes PvP less appealing.

It can entirely be due to the talents i choose - a lot of this is due to the 2 stacks of SD and cd reduction when you spend combo. If i swap to full big burst ones things change but i still feel i'm not delivering all the character has to give.

So right now it's 50/50. It's not that it doesn't work or feels bad, but it's not what Sub should be.

[Celfydd]

It can entirely be due to the talents i choose - a lot of this is due to the 2 stacks of SD and cd reduction when you spend combo. If i swap to full big burst ones things change but i still feel i'm not delivering all the character has to give.

I honestly found that with Dark Shadow instead of Enveloping Shadows there was a nice cadence between dance and nondance, where in the latter you prepare your Rupture and Slice and Dice so as not to have to refresh them during the burst window. So for sustained at least it can fulfil the design idea. I agree that with Enveloping Shadows it feels wrong, windows don't line up as neatly and their timing is more random.

[Coldkil]

I honestly found that with Dark Shadow instead of Enveloping Shadows there was a nice cadence between dance and nondance, where in the latter you prepare your Rupture and Slice and Dice so as not to have to refresh them during the burst window. So for sustained at least it can fulfil the design idea. I agree that with Enveloping Shadows it feels wrong, windows don't line up as neatly and their timing is more random.

In the end, we all know that PvE wise until there are some specific scenarios, we're going with the option that nets more damage, and then adapt our playstyle. I just think that having so much uptime of dances kinda defeats the design of the skill itself.

[finn]

In the end, we all know that PvE wise until there are some specific scenarios, we're going with the option that nets more damage, and then adapt our playstyle. I just think that having so much uptime of dances kinda defeats the design of the skill itself.

true that, sadly. Shadow Dance definitely got perverted gameplaywise, going from a strong DPS/Burst CD to a boring maintenancebuff that we want to be as close to 100% as possible.