outlaw is just terrible

[cozzri]

I absolutely hate outlaw rogue, I had to abandon my Pandaren rogue completely because the change from combat to outlaw just entirely ruined the theme of the character; USING GUNS IS STUPID!!!! They seriously need to add glyphs to make guns into sword attack or something because what they did to combat is just a spit in the face.

[Laytnor]

"Combo points spender buffs you have to maintain" was always among the most boring, mind numbing, shittiest of the mechanics, it always felt like shit on rogues, it felt like shit on ferals with that roar, and it felt like shit when paladins had a holy power damage increase buff. It's not fun, it's terrible design, and I have no idea, why, after all those years, they STILL couldn't get it through their thick skulls, that it's not a fun, nor good class design. It's really a shame.

[Vrinara]

Outlaw? Terrible? Oh dear lord. I need my popcorn for this drama xD

[shoegazing]

"Combo points spender buffs you have to maintain" was always among the most boring, mind numbing, shittiest of the mechanics, it felt like shit on rogues, it felt like shit on ferals with that roar, and it felt like shit when paladins had a holy power damage increase buff. It's not fun, it's terrible design, and I have no idea, why, after all those years, they STILL couldn't get it through their thick skulls, that it's not a fun, nor good class design. It's really a shame.

I like planning ahead and judging what I expect my uptime on the target to be, and choosing the optimal number of combo points to spend based on that.

This isn't just a PvP thing... of course I don't need to spend 5cp on SnD for just bursting into the duration of a Kidney Shot, but I can do it if I know I can stick to my target for a while. On the other hand, if I drop 5cp on SnD and then get Feared, I have played badly and I should have better understood the situation.

The thing is, the same ideas apply in PvE as well. Just looking at a few old raids in classic.... take BWL for example.... Razorgore, I try to build combo points on one of the mobs during phase 1 and time my SnD so that I have a 4cp-5cp cast and get my full energy bar back right at the time the boss goes hostile in Phase 2.

Vael is very interesting... energy is unlimited so the only resource that matters is GCDs... I pop Blade Flurry right before the boss aggros (it costs me nothing to do so), Limited Invulnerability Potion right after I get Essence of the Red debuff (don't want to immune that!), and Backstab 4x into SnD (it's still worth more damage per GCD than a Backstab, so worthwhile to cast... I used to do 5cp but our kill time is fast enough that 4cp is more optimal) then Backstab all the way home (my AP is high enough that Backstab is more damage per global than a 5cp Evis).

(The same idea applies on trash after Razorgore while still under the influence of Essence of the Red.)

On Firemaw, guess what, whether or not I have the Fire Resistance and we have the raid dps to kill without running out determines how I use SnD on that fight. Any time we have to LoS to reset stacks, I'm changing my rotation in order to avoid refreshing before running out, and start with SnD as I run back in.

Chromaggus I use the same kind of planning around his breaths.

On Nefarian I have to pay attention to his Fears... nothing is worse than getting Feared right after refreshing SnD, but on the other hand, it feels great to have the patience to use it right as I am running back from the Fear. BUT, I also Vanish-immune Fear sometimes, and when I do that I modify my rotation accordingly.

"SnD is just a boring maintenance buff" == bad player mentality

[niztheundead87]

The celerity legendary is looking good on numbers and the triple threat conduit along with the weapon master talent bring good results.

I'm going to drop my opinion about rtb here they should go on and merge rtb with slice and dice for outlaw then merge some of the buffs together as in 4 buffs in total and adjust around that. Therefore rtb will feel better to use.

But oh well we can wait and see

[Mafic]

Merging RTB with SND will not be a good outcome IMO.

I mean they can do that but at this point they should just leave it alone. Bigger problems with the spec are mastery, RNG of sinister strike second strike, etc.

[schwank05]

Yes, it was shit from the get go. I leveled my Rogue when they got the ability to wield Axes and loved Combat. Pirate Spec is garbage the spec was perfect in Wrath then they got rid of all the good stats and fast OH weapons and now we have Pirates that are not fun to play and saddens me because I have not touched my Rogue since CATA Pre Patch because they royally fucked them over.

[Runstarr]

I love outlaw on SL, and i hated every single bit of it in BFA, I think it's going in the right direction and many people feel the same, maybe it's a you thing?

[ihate2beapessimist]

The sound effects are terrible, for sure.

[niztheundead87]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=318138/...y-flagellation

[Eldrathian]

Roll The Bones should never have come back. Its just another thing you need to keep up that feels like shit if you don't have and doesn't really notice if you do have it on. It just further complicated rotation by adding a really unrewarding button press that requires combopoint, combo points you should have been using on soemthing else. A finishing move, not a fire and forget passive. No bang for your buck pressing this ability. Feels really unrewarding

I fixed it for you.

[Gurg]

But this is ignoring the reason of WHY we were rerolling. It was a solution to deal with the RNG of the spec and that RNG is still there. So they haven’t fix the problem at all. They have simply restricted the solution which is not helping very much at all. Now when we get a bad buff we just have to accept that we are doing low damage for the next 30-45 seconds and there is nothing we can do about it. They should fix the problem instead of restricting the solution.

We can reroll every 15ish second or so since RtB as well as Blade Flurry cooldowns are affected by Restless Blades.
This is further reduced by conduit which gives a chance for RtB not to trigger CD.
We also have conduit that gives our Ambush and Dispatch chance, tripled chance and duration in stealth, to get a RtB that we dont have.

I dont like the idea of having 2 out of 4 spec (and 6 usable in total) conduits revolving around RtB at all, but it looks like devs have decided to go down that path. I sincerely hope that those wont be valuable a lot so we can pick other conduits.

I'm in the same boat as you, i dont like RtB at all. I sincerely hope that RtB will be removed/replaced, but we are far into dev cycle and close to exp release that we are probably just down to number tuning.
Based on that and idea that we are, as most other classes, probably stuck with some negatives, in this case RtB, i was just commenting that new change to RtB feels nice since rerolls will be less punishing. I didn't say that i like it, which i really don't.

[froschhure]

The spec has been designed to die like trash on the sideway. Combat is always superior to this and besides, they could have completed the demon hunter with its third spec. Whoever is prioritising things at blizzard, does not know a shit about wow.

[Redzonetode]

The spec has been designed to die like trash on the sideway. Combat is always superior to this and besides, they could have completed the demon hunter with its third spec. Whoever is prioritising things at blizzard, does not know a shit about wow.

lol tons of people love outlaw

[Pandragon]

I absolutely hate outlaw rogue, I had to abandon my Pandaren rogue completely because the change from combat to outlaw just entirely ruined the theme of the character; USING GUNS IS STUPID!!!! They seriously need to add glyphs to make guns into sword attack or something because what they did to combat is just a spit in the face.

What was bad was the out of nowhere change to making combat into a pirate, then the half assed reverse back to a combat/pirate hybrid.

I like Outlaw, except for the 5 minutes of rerolling to get a decent buff. But I think if they wanted to make a combat change they should have either made combat ranged to make up for the survival melee change, or make it a tank spec.

[Sinte]

Hm I already knew that people would come with "L2P" and "you're just bad at rogue". That's not the case. Yes I'm not used to the new changes but that's not the general problem, I despise the new style of playing outlaw.

You should have left between the eyes just as it is, not added slice and dice at all, because it is completely useless and does not fit in and roll the bones could have been more qualitative rework. And the idea with the between the eyes debuff is absolutely snotty anyway. Have fun with the efficient target switch.

And yes I am pissed. My trigger finger is still pressing between the eyes instead of kidney shot and roll the bones instead of slice and dice, but what do you expect when 4 years of grooving on something like that. I don't have a problem with classes rework in general, but more with adding trivial things you just have to press in a certain time window. There goes the whole dynamic.

Slice and dice came back because they took the management out of the spec by changing RtB. You don't need to manage it anymore, you just press it every X seconds or on cooldown depending on what you want to do with it. BtE definitely needed to change, are you kidding me, we absolutely locked down anything remotely threatening in trash mobs by being able to use it to both stun AND nuke. These were needed changes. No, changes like this don't feel good, but they needed to happen. You'll survive with two more buttons and one more WA.

[Kaver]

Slice and dice came back because they took the management out of the spec by changing RtB. You don't need to manage it anymore, you just press it every X seconds or on cooldown depending on what you want to do with it. BtE definitely needed to change, are you kidding me, we absolutely locked down anything remotely threatening in trash mobs by being able to use it to both stun AND nuke. These were needed changes. No, changes like this don't feel good, but they needed to happen. You'll survive with two more buttons and one more WA.

“Slice and Dice requires managing” - Joke of the year 2020

[Olivia12]

There are so many things to watch out for and what to look out for that the actual gameplay has not been declining but evolving.

[Ausr]

I kinda wish Roll the Bones was off the GCD right now.

[thottstation]

There's just so many abilities now, I just don't know where I'm going to keybind them.

Roll The Bones and Slice & Dice was always an either/or. Now I have to maintain both?

Between The Eyes AND Kidney Shot?

Shiv was always optional. Now it's default along with Dreadblades. Two more I need to keybind.

An n52 AND a multi-button mouse, and still not enough room.