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  1. #181
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    IDK man for all the faults of this expansion, the pacing was pretty good for content releases, as mediocre as those content releases sometimes were. There never really felt like there was nothing to do except for like the last couple of months and look at that, we're a couple of weeks from pre-patch. I'm fine with a few boring months at the end of an expansion where there's nothing left to do rather than 6+ months of that shit like everything from Cata onwards.
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  2. #182
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    Is it coincidence that best expansions have had the shortest duration? Except wrath.

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  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    I love blizzards games but they simply do not care about the quality at which shit is being released anymore. Any problems that occur day one of it being released is on blizzard, and has nothing to do with the pandemic. Look at games like cyberpunk. They knew the pandemic might slow some of their progress so they delayed the game. Simple as that. They had a hurdle, they worked around it.

    Blizzard isn’t going to do this because they just want to make as much money with the most minimal amount of effort, which is what we will get.
    Amen, the game had to be released this year for the shareholders. When SL comes out, we will all be beta testing it until 9.1
    If this happens and it most likely will, then we will have another BFA on our hands where blizzard then scamper around trying to save the expansion with a decent 9.2 patch next june/july. I'm almost tempted to just play other releases until 9.2 when inevitably the game will be that much more playable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinBash View Post
    never really felt like there was nothing to do except for like the last couple of months and look at that, we're a couple of weeks from pre-patch.
    That depends on what you do in game though right? My heroic guild had tons to do in Legion. From release until Christmas we got EN,ToV,Karazhan.
    In BFA we got Uldir + additional warfront/Island? + 8 new war campaign quests.
    So naturally my guild died, Legion offered so much more earlier on.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Very rare pepe View Post
    Amen, the game had to be released this year for the shareholders.
    No. It did not. Blizzard has delayed games before and were not required to do anything. The game releasing on October 27th long before the end of the year also indicates this isn't true. It also ignores how offering a sub standard product and the bad press can be just as important to share holders as getting a product out on time.
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  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Wrong. Mists of Pandaria lasted 26 months, as well.

    However, MoP's last patch (5.4: Siege of Orgrimmar) lasted fourteen months: from September 14, 2013 to November 13, 2014. Whereas BfA's last patch (8.3: Visions of N'Zoth) will last only ten months. And on top of that, MoP's last patch only gave us Proving Grounds and Timeless Isle as "repeatable content" and even then those didn't have much to do. Visions of N'Zoth gave us two "new" quest zones that changed every week, and Horrific Visions. On top of that, BfA has the benefit of Mythic+ dungeons.

    All of that put together makes BfA not feel anywhere near as "long" as MoP did, really.

    Don't you remember how bad the "MoP content drought" was, back then, while we waited for the next expansion?
    Yeah, that primarily because they fucked up the pacing by dropping 5.2 way too early. 5 months between the start of the first raid of T14 and T15, 7 months between T15 and T16, and then we had T16 from September 2013, until October/November 2014. 5, 7, and 13 or 14 months for t14, t15, and t16 respectively (I am terrible when it comes to dealing with time on any scale beyond a single wake/sleep cycle, this includes doing math with it).

    The had enough content, they just shoved 5.2 out less than 16 weeks after the heroic mode of the final raid of T14 was even open (Heroic ToES opened up November 20th, 2012, Normal Throne of Thunder opened March 5th, 2013). MoP's content drought was almost wholly due to poor planning and an insanely optimistic expectation of the release date of WoD. As we discovered from the blue posts during the drought, Garrisons ate up a fuckton of time from the art teams, and since they were a launch feature they had to delay the release of the whole expansion for them.


    Blizzard needs to stop planning around this insane notion that they'll get an expansion out in 18 months because it just isn't realistic, and they've never come close to actually achieving it.
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  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Wrong. Mists of Pandaria lasted 26 months, as well.

    However, MoP's last patch (5.4: Siege of Orgrimmar) lasted fourteen months: from September 14, 2013 to November 13, 2014. Whereas BfA's last patch (8.3: Visions of N'Zoth) will last only ten months. And on top of that, MoP's last patch only gave us Proving Grounds and Timeless Isle as "repeatable content" and even then those didn't have much to do. Visions of N'Zoth gave us two "new" quest zones that changed every week, and Horrific Visions. On top of that, BfA has the benefit of Mythic+ dungeons.

    All of that put together makes BfA not feel anywhere near as "long" as MoP did, really.

    Don't you remember how bad the "MoP content drought" was, back then, while we waited for the next expansion?
    Mop content draught wasn't as bad as you think it was. Versus last patch time frames HFC was actually 5 days longer then Siege lasted (give or take). The BFA content has been pretty garbage for pretty much the entire duration of the expac.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by PaladinBash View Post
    IDK man for all the faults of this expansion, the pacing was pretty good for content releases, as mediocre as those content releases sometimes were. There never really felt like there was nothing to do except for like the last couple of months and look at that, we're a couple of weeks from pre-patch. I'm fine with a few boring months at the end of an expansion where there's nothing left to do rather than 6+ months of that shit like everything from Cata onwards.
    I'd say 8.2 overstayed its welcome for about a month (it lasted almost 7 months). That said, just when I was getting tired of it we got the anniversary event and then the holidays, so I guess it works?

    I sure hope we keep getting month long "events" like the current rep buff or the 5 weeks of TW, it breaks the monotony a bit.
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  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But there was no "different subset of players" who "could not do normal raiding" and "refused to do LFR".
    Why are you putting in quotes something I never said? If you have to invent words to attribute to me in order to win the argument, maybe you need to realise there is a problem with what you're trying to argue.

    Flex raiding made access to what is now Normal Difficulty raiding a lot more accessible to the players who raid at the that difficulty level (whether it be in pugs or in casual guilds). And those players are often not the same players who want to raid LFR. When they extended Flex to heroic raiding it made the situation even better for a substantial portion of the raiding population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    If they wanted to see the raid content, LFR was there for them, because that was the intention for its implementation: to give players who could not, for whatever reason, allocate a fixed amount of hours per week to dedicate to organized raiding. I.e. players who could not see the raid content, by allowing them to do parts of the instance at their own time.
    I am not trying to argue that this isn't one of the intended purposes of LFR. That doesn't mean that LFR is the ideal solution for everyone, especially for a raider who enjoys doing raid content in an organised group at more challenging difficulty levels.

    Honestly, I am struggling to understand how you're still arguing against this: Flex improved the raiding situation for a sizeable chunk of players at the end of MoP and gave those players more of an incentive to participate in raiding, thus effectively giving them more content to do.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by SerratedEdge252 View Post
    Mop content draught wasn't as bad as you think it was. Versus last patch time frames HFC was actually 5 days longer then Siege lasted (give or take). The BFA content has been pretty garbage for pretty much the entire duration of the expac.
    Maybe, but we're comparing the two most long-lasting expansions in Warcraft: MoP and BfA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Why are you putting in quotes something I never said? If you have to invent words to attribute to me in order to win the argument, maybe you need to realise there is a problem with what you're trying to argue.
    Except you literally said that, here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The fact that LFR existed and allowed people to see the content doesn't disqualify Flex from doing the same thing for a different subset of players.

    Flex raiding made access to what is now Normal Difficulty raiding a lot more accessible to the players who raid at the that difficulty level (whether it be in pugs or in casual guilds). And those players are often not the same players who want to raid LFR. When they extended Flex to heroic raiding it made the situation even better for a substantial portion of the raiding population.
    Again: false. Flex raiding was never about "letting more people see and do content", nor did it have that effect. LFR already existed for those who could not do normal raiding, regardless of reason. The reason for "flex raiding" is solely to make raid sizes more flexible. Not to "let more people see and do content", nor did it have that effect, regardless of purpose.

    I am not trying to argue that this isn't one of the intended purposes of LFR. That doesn't mean that LFR is the ideal solution for everyone, especially for a raider who enjoys doing raid content in an organised group at more challenging difficulty levels.
    And yet those people who "enjoy doing raid content in an organized group at more challenging difficulty levels" apparently had so much trouble doing 10-man normal raiding (the easiest difficulty at the time, LFR notwithstanding) that they "needed" Flex raiding to be able to "see and do the content"? Something doesn't add up in that statement.

    Honestly, I am struggling to understand how you're still arguing against this: Flex improved the raiding situation for a sizeable chunk of players at the end of MoP and gave those players more of an incentive to participate in raiding, thus effectively giving them more content to do.
    Because your statement is just objectively false. Everyone could already "see and do raid content" thanks to LFR. The purpose and effect of Flex raiding was never to "let more people see and do content" and simply just test a new technology that allows raid instances to automatically balance itself to any raid size (within 10 and 30 players). Again: it was never about "letting more people see and do raid content".
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  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    MoP's content drought was almost wholly due to poor planning and an insanely optimistic expectation of the release date of WoD. As we discovered from the blue posts during the drought, Garrisons ate up a fuckton of time from the art teams, and since they were a launch feature they had to delay the release of the whole expansion for them.
    That's not all that was going on during WoD, though. With WoD and Legion they were trying really hard to make annual releases happen by parallelizing development and growing the development team. But the big lesson they learned was that there were development bottlenecks they just couldn't overcome by throwing more people at the game. Team expansion also required some restructuring and training that took a toll, too.

    After that they gave up on the idea of annual expansions and tried to settle into a consistent two-year cycle with 3 major content patches and minor .5s in between.

    That schedule worked pretty well in Legion and they tweaked it in BFA in order to space things out better and ultimately shorten the gap between the last content patch and the next expansion, which I'd say has been a success. I'm sure that if they hadn't had to take time adjusting to working from home, it'd have been even shorter.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post
    Blizzard needs to stop planning around this insane notion that they'll get an expansion out in 18 months because it just isn't realistic, and they've never come close to actually achieving it.
    When have they done this in BfA? And even before then it was yearly.
    If you are thinking of why the last patch is always longer it has more to do with how large the next expansion is as well as relatively consistent launch dates being good for business.

    Even beyond that I am sure that if you asked any of the developers of Blizzard their personal feelings I am sure that they would say that noone is forced to play the last few months. Take a break if you are really hating logging on, it prevents you from getting burnt out as well as building up anticipation ofr hte next expansion.
    Even if you asked the marketing teams I am sure they would agree that getting players to take a break after the final patch is better long-term.

  12. #192
    I would be more hyped for Shadowlands if it wasn't for covenants and the importance of them and the abilities. New zones and locations look nice but for me they seem to have gone full focus on the small details like new customization options - which to me is a bit like "who cares?" when class design isn't getting the proper attention it needs.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    That's not all that was going on during WoD, though. With WoD and Legion they were trying really hard to make annual releases happen by parallelizing development and growing the development team. But the big lesson they learned was that there were development bottlenecks they just couldn't overcome by throwing more people at the game. Team expansion also required some restructuring and training that took a toll, too.
    Blizzard probably could have made annual releases happen if they put the work into restructuring the teams to work more efficiently, though I think the reason they scrapped it was because they would likely have to sacrifice the pacing of each expansions story to fit into a 12 month gap instead of a 24 month one.
    Even with that the expansions would have likely ended up similar to what we have now anyways. With buildup in the initial areas followed by larger areas with the payoffs. Let us not forget that we even get new crafting materials and such in the middle of the expansion.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by styil View Post
    At 26 months by the time Shadowlands is out. Given how long this expansion has dragged on for, does it give you hope for Shadowlands? They have had by far the most time to work on an expansion, and given it has now been a few years since the dev team has increased dramatically, should we expect an impeccable expansion for Shadowlands?
    I thought they were going to churn out one xpak per year.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by dextersmith View Post
    I thought they were going to churn out one xpak per year.
    The publicly gave up on that sometime during WoD, and even with that it was never something they seemed to be building towards heavily.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The publicly gave up on that sometime during WoD, and even with that it was never something they seemed to be building towards heavily.
    They were trying to build to it during WoD which is why that expansion got only one meaningful content patch. They gave up on the idea because it turned out disastrously.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Maybe, but we're comparing the two most long-lasting expansions in Warcraft: MoP and BfA.
    That's Vanilla and Wrath though. By the time SL comes out it'll be BFA (805 days) > Vanilla (784 days) > Wrath (754 days).

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by styil View Post
    At 26 months by the time Shadowlands is out. Given how long this expansion has dragged on for, does it give you hope for Shadowlands? They have had by far the most time to work on an expansion, and given it has now been a few years since the dev team has increased dramatically, should we expect an impeccable expansion for Shadowlands?
    Longest and shittiest.

  19. #199
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    So, in all honesty, the same as every other expansion? this is just silly criticism.[/QUOTE]

    No, These past two expansions are the only ones where we've regressed. We have gained zero permanent power gains. No talents, new skills at level cap, new mechanics or anything else. Everything you gained in legion you turned in at 116. Everything you gained in BFA you turn in at prepatch. Azerite traits, neck, corruptions, essences. 4 borrowed power metrics that stack. That is borrowed power ontop of borrowed power.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by SerratedEdge252 View Post
    That's Vanilla and Wrath though. By the time SL comes out it'll be BFA (805 days) > Vanilla (784 days) > Wrath (754 days).
    Vanilla is not an expansion, though. And MoP lasted 780 days. From Sept 25, 2012, to Nov 13, 2014.
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