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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    does not happen in the same way when everyone is full remote.
    Pretty similar - everyone related jumps into slack/zoom meeting by clicking a link, and there are plugins that share your IDE - code, cursor and even debug information.

    (you work for a very small outfit)
    Yes, in a big company it would be one department. I worked at IBM, it's basically tons of small to medium separate companies.
    My nickname is "LDEV", not "idev". (both font clarification and ez bait)

    yall im smh @ ur simplified english

  2. #142
    I bet it should have been released in August but due to coronavirus and working from home situation it got delayed which is completely understandable.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    People will dip their toes into Shadowlands and then immediately bounce the moment it feels bad. It won't be like BFA where people were "so conflicted and heart broken over the game they love", any sentiments have been long forgotten. It's nut up or shut up time for Blizzard and everyone can kind of sense it.
    I think I've heard this "this is the last chance for Blizzard" for three or four expansions in a row now. Let me be doubtful.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    I think I've heard this "this is the last chance for Blizzard" for three or four expansions in a row now. Let me be doubtful.
    Judging from myself having been a very loyal fan since the start, this is the first time since cata that I just pay sub without logging in for weeks/months and havent bought the expansion yet. When I do buy it I will by the cheapex version. Yeah I think they are in a make it or break it scenario this time around.
    Last edited by Motorman; 2020-09-09 at 08:42 AM.
    WoW forums in a nutshell:
    m8 i've been around since Feb 2005, I know it all.
    So I was using a gold dupe hack. I don't know why i was banned for this. It is so unfair.
    People need an incentive to play content. "Its fun!" is simply not enough.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Judging from myself having been a very loyal fan since the start, this is the first time since cata that I just pay sub without logging in for weeks/months and havent bought the expansion yet. When I do buy it I will by the cheapex version. Yeah I think they are in a make it or break it scenario this time around.
    The thing is, for YOU it's the "make it or break it scenario", but that just means YOU (and others of course, but not the "general consensus") have reached this point.
    There has been people who have felt exactly the same as you for every single expansion before (hence why I've heard it already each time), and there will be for every expansion after. That's why there is a slow decay but the game keeps trudging along, and there is not an actual "make it or break it" point for the game as a whole.

    I mean, WoW survived WoD. I don't think it's even possible to antagonize sufficiently the entire fanbase to kill the game in one go if WoD couldn't manage it.

  6. #146
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    Covid happened, so I don't really care.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Sloth View Post
    Vanilla - 785 days
    TBC - 668 days
    WotLK - 755 days
    Cata - 659 days
    MoP - 780 days
    WoD - 657 days
    Legion - 715 days
    BFA - 806 days

    Saw a lot of people arguing over months when we could just look at days to see how long something was. Adding this in here.
    OMG people freaking out over 1.5 months.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    In short: MoP had little to keep people doing stuff. Even for alt-a-holics.You're honestly the first person I see to say that MoP's content drought "was not that bad". Then again, I saw someone today make a thread about WoD being the best expansion, and praised the infamous "selfie patch", so there's that.
    No, it had little to keep YOU doing stuff.

    I can see an argument for people who were so far ahead of the game being out of stuff to do early - But there was very, very, VERY few people who capped on every alt, and playing an alt was decent. (The legendary cloak quest was rough on alts, nobody would disagree with that, but for those WITH alts it most certainly was something worth doing every few days.)

    Scenarios weren't endgame, you're right, but considering that's not at all what I said - You could queue for it as a DPS while sitting in an LFR queue, and the queue wasn't insanely long as a DPS so you could easily stomp a couple out for some valor while also getting your LFR queue out of the way. Nothing was put in place that supplements this system, and it has been sorely missed since.

    Flex raiding let tons of people into content that might never have seen it otherwise.

    My group of friends, who have never managed to down heroic endgame content in an expansion prior or since, managed to stay interested enough in SoO that we actually progressed decently into Heroic content. (I think we managed to hit the Klaxxi before it swapped to Mythic and our small group of friends lost interest in forming a larger group, as expected.) So your anecdote is met with an anecdote.

    So as I said prior: It had more to do for more of the playerbase than ever before. It finally gave some fun stuff to non-raiders for a change, and without sacrificing on raid quality. It was a nice change of pace.

    So feel free to go put on your... What would it be, brown colored glasses in this case? if you must, but your negative view doesn't change the positive experience many had. At least we can both agree there's no arguing in favor of WoD.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    Do not tell me you are going to legit give blizzard a break because of covid... extra time doesn’t completely change their expansion features and plans it would only make them imbalanced/glitched.
    I'm not giving them a break, or the opposite. I was just pointing out that 'longest expansion' or longest developing time won't translate in content\polish since overall loss of productivity due to convid, confinement, etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daffan View Post
    Covid-19 does not go through the ethernet

    Gottem
    Yea, because day 1 of confinement everyone (person, company, etc) just hit the ground running with no loss of productivity whatsoever! Business as usual!

    sigh

    Also, i'll throw in a big example of something that can just delay things a lot by itself.

    Voice acting.

    You know the voices you hear in the game? Sylvanas, Jaina, Uther, etc? They're recorded by voice actors, who need to go to the recording studio, and you know, record their lines. And that takes a complete break if people aren't able to, you know, do that. I sincerely don't understand how people think the confinement in the early days of covid-19 had no impact... geez.
    Last edited by hulkgor; 2020-09-09 at 01:47 PM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Judging from myself having been a very loyal fan since the start, this is the first time since cata that I just pay sub without logging in for weeks/months and havent bought the expansion yet. When I do buy it I will by the cheapex version. Yeah I think they are in a make it or break it scenario this time around.

    Funny. This is the first expansion EVER for me that my friends list is packed full of people every night (10+) still playing this late in the expansion. Usually a ghost town until the pre patch. Perhaps Covid played a big part in that. But in reality, the game is simply much better than the cesspool of negativity would lead you to believe.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    More armchair developers not knowing what they are talking about.
    Actual developer here. Smoothly working from home since 4 years prior to covid.

    The transition from office work to WFH is not a smooth one. It takes time to set up a home office. It takes time to get remote VPNs working properly.
    Blizzard's fault if they didn't have this set up already way ahead of time. They have more capital than my company, yet my company had the infrastructure to let everyone in IT work remote THE NEXT DAY. The only hiccup we had was one of our 3 gateways getting maxxed out. 1 day and a different load balancing algo later, and everyone was 100% again.

    There are more distractions at home. Loved ones do their best not to disturb you but it can take a while for them to get used to you being there.
    Amateurs if true.

    Source? I am an actual software developer that now WFH in a large organisation and I actually played Vanilla.
    Like I said. Amateur. My org had about 10% WFH pre covid, and they skipped up to 95% basically over night. Now, getting adjusted was probably something for some people, but... like I said... a company like blizz that should be bleeding edge? How tf were they not already majority WFH? That's the bleeding edge of the industry.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby451 View Post
    Funny. This is the first expansion EVER for me that my friends list is packed full of people every night (10+) still playing this late in the expansion. Usually a ghost town until the pre patch. Perhaps Covid played a big part in that. But in reality, the game is simply much better than the cesspool of negativity would lead you to believe.
    What types of players are you and your friends? I bet it's what I think blizzard's current prime audience is.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    No, it had little to keep YOU doing stuff.
    Timeless Isle gear was quickly made obsolete with LFR gear.
    The "story" in Timeless Isle was done in a flash.
    There was only a single daily added in the patch, IIRC.
    Dungeons were useless once you reached max level. (With the exception of Challenge Modes, but once you reached gold, they became useless, IIRC)
    Scenarios were useless past the first one of the day, as only the first one gave Valor.
    Valor points, again, became useless once all your gear was upgraded. And if you didn't raid, you had no gear to upgrade, as the ones you bought with valor weren't upgradable, IIRC.

    Scenarios weren't endgame, you're right, but considering that's not at all what I said - You could queue for it as a DPS while sitting in an LFR queue, and the queue wasn't insanely long as a DPS so you could easily stomp a couple out for some valor while also getting your LFR queue out of the way. Nothing was put in place that supplements this system, and it has been sorely missed since.
    I have never seen anyone requesting for the return of scenarios. On the other hand, I recall people being rather content that they were removed.

    Flex raiding let tons of people into content that might never have seen it otherwise.
    That's BS because that's the purpose of LFR. If you could get into Flex, you definitely could get into LFR, and you could do LFR since the previous expansion.

    So as I said prior: It had more to do for more of the playerbase than ever before. It finally gave some fun stuff to non-raiders for a change, and without sacrificing on raid quality. It was a nice change of pace.
    • Wrath added 3 dungeons, a raid, automatic cross-server LFD, and a fishing event in its last ".0" patch. And then added a new, small raid with its last ".5" patch.
    • Cataclysm added 3 dungeons, a raid, transmogrification, LFR, and Darkmoon Island on heir last ".0" patch.
    • MoP added a raid, timeless isle, proving grounds, and flex raiding.

    MoP was clearly lacking in content compared to prior expansions.

    So feel free to go put on your... What would it be, brown colored glasses in this case?
    "Brown colored glasses" at least allow my eyes to see. You, on the other hand, keep your eyes closed shut, AND covered with your hands.
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  13. #153
    I think Shadowlands will bad as well, instead of going back to how things were and are in most mmos blizzard keeps on moving from 1 borrow power to the next. I might end up skipping SL for the fact that, its another borrow power expansion & all my time will be wasted for something that does not even carry over; in the past even though most gears get replace mid way through a new expansion, at least it is only gears & the progression relating to abilities are still there. At this point I would rather have a duel system of talents, 1 like wrath talents & the other with what we have now similar to SWOTR.

    If they were smart they would had kept with legion artifact weapons being the last form of it & just build on that. Instead of building on it they toss the system out so everything we did before was a waste of them and ruin the lore because why would any1 throw away such powerful artifacts. Even if the power was loss, why not simply find a new way to regain that power. Blizz could had kept artifact weapons so we have 2 types of character progression similar to SWOTR; where they have talent choices like wow has but has another progression chart that gives more abilities as you level, where I think blizz got the idea for the artifact weapon in the 1st place. Then for new weapon looks, mobs & bosses beyond legion can simple just drop weapon skins, similar to how GW2 have items that skin over other items & once use or obtain it goes into your xmog collection.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    That some people are not waxing nostalgic about some previous expansions does not negate the fact that current-expansion hate vs. previous expansion "it wasn't so bad" hasn't been a thing.
    And?
    Correlation does not equate causation.

    If TBC was a 9 out of 10 and Wotlk was an 8, then Wotlk was the "worst expansion" so far.
    If you then follow up with a 7 or 6, then the 8 looks good by comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    Christ, just a few months ago there was a lot of WoD nostalgia on this very forum.
    In comparison to BfA perhaps, not on WoW as a whole.
    Quote Originally Posted by Very rare pepe View Post
    Agreed, if and when Cata/WoD servers are re-launched by blizzard, they won't be as popular as the classic/TBC/Wrath ones. It is generally considered that TBC/Wrath/MoP/Vanilla are the best times of the game, Cata/WoD/BFA are the worst and Legion sits somewhere in between.
    I think almost any expansion is worth replaying for the raid content, doesn't mean i'd play every expansion to the same degree.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Actual developer here. Smoothly working from home since 4 years prior to covid.
    Actual engineer here (not software specifically although I do have a number of software engineers in my team): Different people react differently. The fact that you are able to do it perfectly is not evidence that everyone can.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Blizzard's fault if they didn't have this set up already way ahead of time. They have more capital than my company, yet my company had the infrastructure to let everyone in IT work remote THE NEXT DAY. The only hiccup we had was one of our 3 gateways getting maxxed out. 1 day and a different load balancing algo later, and everyone was 100% again.
    I would expect that their biggest challenges would have been people-centric rather than due to access to technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Amateurs if true.
    Spoken like someone who doesn't have a family of his own.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Like I said. Amateur. My org had about 10% WFH pre covid, and they skipped up to 95% basically over night. Now, getting adjusted was probably something for some people, but... like I said... a company like blizz that should be bleeding edge? How tf were they not already majority WFH? That's the bleeding edge of the industry.
    Depends on what you're doing. Collaborating with other people in a creative endeavour is a lot harder to do/less effective using virtual communications than actually having people in the same physical space. Like I said, some people take to it better than others, but most don't. That is just part of being human. Maybe if you're talking about a generation of people who grow up in an environment where virtual communication is the norm, this might change. But that isn't what society is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That's BS because that's the purpose of LFR. If you could get into Flex, you definitely could get into LFR, and you could do LFR since the previous expansion.
    Flex raiding serves a very different purpose from LFR. Flex was awesome because it made what is now normal and heroic raiding a lot more accessible and friendly towards casual guilds as well as pugs. Flex means you almost never need to bench players. Not only does that mean that players don't get the negative experience of being sat out, but it also means that guilds can keep a bigger roster and there is less risk of raids not happening because of a few no-shows. It really revolutionised the casual-organised raiding scene.

    I would agree that it contributed towards keeping people busy at the end of MoP (and has continued to do so since then).

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    I'm not giving them a break, or the opposite. I was just pointing out that 'longest expansion' or longest developing time won't translate in content\polish since overall loss of productivity due to convid, confinement, etc.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yea, because day 1 of confinement everyone (person, company, etc) just hit the ground running with no loss of productivity whatsoever! Business as usual!

    sigh

    Also, i'll throw in a big example of something that can just delay things a lot by itself.

    Voice acting.

    You know the voices you hear in the game? Sylvanas, Jaina, Uther, etc? They're recorded by voice actors, who need to go to the recording studio, and you know, record their lines. And that takes a complete break if people aren't able to, you know, do that. I sincerely don't understand how people think the confinement in the early days of covid-19 had no impact... geez.
    Here’s the thing, it should though. They could have pushed the release date back, many games have, they could have taken this extra time to really look at their systems to see if they are even healthy for the game before even testing.

    I love blizzards games but they simply do not care about the quality at which shit is being released anymore. Any problems that occur day one of it being released is on blizzard, and has nothing to do with the pandemic. Look at games like cyberpunk. They knew the pandemic might slow some of their progress so they delayed the game. Simple as that. They had a hurdle, they worked around it.

    Blizzard isn’t going to do this because they just want to make as much money with the most minimal amount of effort, which is what we will get.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Flex raiding serves a very different purpose from LFR. Flex was awesome because it made what is now normal and heroic raiding a lot more accessible and friendly towards casual guilds as well as pugs. Flex means you almost never need to bench players. Not only does that mean that players don't get the negative experience of being sat out, but it also means that guilds can keep a bigger roster and there is less risk of raids not happening because of a few no-shows. It really revolutionised the casual-organised raiding scene.

    I would agree that it contributed towards keeping people busy at the end of MoP (and has continued to do so since then).
    The poster I responded to wrote, and I quote: "Flex raiding let tons of people into content that might never have seen it otherwise." and that is false since LFR already existed for over a year, and that was its purpose: to let people see content that they might never see otherwise.
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  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I guess you missed the 'spent a lot of time on alpha/beta' bit of my post? I have played a ton of SL, most of the content that will be available until 9.1, so I understand how I feel about it, thanks.
    Yeah but my post was aimed at the general player who hasn't played it yet, most will like SL better than BFA, because BFA was quite bad, it would be a remarkable achievement if SL was worse than BFA.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Looks like we fundamentally disagree on what constitutes a retcon then.
    That is the problem though. Not everything is a retcon just because it gives new information. Not everything is a retcon just because it changes what we knew with past events. Kael'thas reappearing in Magisters Terrace was not a retcon even though we last saw him die in Tempest Keep. It was new information. You are arguing that it was a ret con.

    Shadowlands doesn't retcon the things you've stated here. It explains those things in further detail. Chronicles may have retconed a little but it still works with in the prior lore regarding Shadowlands, the helm, and the blade.
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  20. #160
    The fact they put so much emphasis on the ways you power up your class on covenants, something that will completely go away with a new expansion, tells me no. The emphasis should be on talents, specs, spells, all of that in general. Some specs and classes themselves have barely changed at all, and some have basically, until recently, just gotten some very minor changes. Sorry, but while this expansion *looks* amazing, now that all the information is out there it simply looks like a big let down. There are some good things and good decisions, but when everyone complained about the direction of combat, what they did with that was not beneficial.
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