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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Yea, because day 1 of confinement everyone (person, company, etc) just hit the ground running with no loss of productivity whatsoever! Business as usual!
    Devs have stated that it took some getting used to but hasn't really slowed development. You can believe they were lying but there is no reason for them to lie about it. There would be a productivity loss but it clearly wasn't anything major that people like to claim in forum posts when discussing the delays. Voice overs can be done last minute if needed. Blizzard has had plenty of time to safely do professional level voice overs.

    If the latest Brandon Sanderson book that has 2 or more days of spoken audio can be recorded during a pandemic then Blizzard can manage to do any amount of voice over work needed for WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by La View Post
    The emphasis should be on talents, specs, spells, all of that in general.
    2012, with MoP, is when Blizzard introduced 6 talent rows. They added a 7th in WoD. Talent emphasis is the same as borrowed power because Blizzard would just rework those talents between expansions. The same thing with spells and specs. They usually get changed during each expansion with the borrowed power of the past getting baked in to the class when it makes sense.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Timeless Isle gear was quickly made obsolete with LFR gear.
    The "story" in Timeless Isle was done in a flash.
    There was only a single daily added in the patch, IIRC.
    Dungeons were useless once you reached max level. (With the exception of Challenge Modes, but once you reached gold, they became useless, IIRC)
    Scenarios were useless past the first one of the day, as only the first one gave Valor.
    Valor points, again, became useless once all your gear was upgraded. And if you didn't raid, you had no gear to upgrade, as the ones you bought with valor weren't upgradable, IIRC.
    1) Timeless Isle gear, being random stats, was better than LFR gear in just about every way since you could customize the stats to your liking. The only pieces of LFR gear that outdid Timeless Isle gear was Trinkets and Tier Gear, for obvious reasons.
    2) The "story" is never what people comment on, or we'd all have stopped playing back in Wrath.
    3) The daily wasn't the point, the grind existed and people did it. You can complain that you didn't like it all you want, people did it and people enjoyed the content.
    4) Dungeons had valor. YOU had plenty of valor as an overachieving raider, but not everyone did.
    5) Scenarios weren't useless past the first one of the day, both because you could do all of your weekly Valor point grind in a single day (something you seem to have conveniently forgotten, you had 7 weekly bonuses in MoP which you could use at any point in the week, not refreshing daily), and as mentioned, because DPS could continue to queue for them earning justice points for profession mats, and it would continue to use up queue time in other queues. (Ex.: A Scenario often only took 5 minutes, but when your DPS queue for LFR is 30+, banging out 3 or 4 scenarios before your LFR queue popped, while also trading the items you get for gold/your Farm/profession mats via the Harmony/Justice vendor, was more than possible, and thus easily claimed to be not "useless.')

    I have never seen anyone requesting for the return of scenarios. On the other hand, I recall people being rather content that they were removed.
    You obviously haven't seen my post history. I've complained about the removal of Scenarios since the removal of Scenarios.

    That's BS because that's the purpose of LFR. If you could get into Flex, you definitely could get into LFR, and you could do LFR since the previous expansion.
    Good thing I didn't say "More people saw raid content than ever before" then.

    More people saw CONTENT than ever before. That's because people who couldn't previously move beyond LFR, moved into Flex. People who didn't like LFR for being far too easy, could do Flex if they enjoyed that. People who liked small group content, could do Flex instead of LFR. The addition of Cross Realms and subsequently oQueue made this much easier. I can't believe I have to explain this.

    • Wrath added 3 dungeons, a raid, automatic cross-server LFD, and a fishing event in its last ".0" patch. And then added a new, small raid with its last ".5" patch.
    • Cataclysm added 3 dungeons, a raid, transmogrification, LFR, and Darkmoon Island on heir last ".0" patch.
    • MoP added a raid, timeless isle, proving grounds, and flex raiding.
    And Wrath's last patch lasted one year, and people were sick of it 6 months in because there was no world content. The same problem happened in Cata, coincidentally offering absolutely no world content whatsovever. Their dungeon content did not satisfy the playerbase on it's own. And nothing else you mentioned even matters - Raids are introduced in EVERY final patch, and Darkmoon Faire was nothing until it had several more patches in order to add more to it.

    You're stretching INCREDIBLY far with your 'content' when you try to pass fishing contest and transmog as 'content,' but refuse to count Scenarios at all.

    MoP was clearly lacking in content compared to prior expansions.
    Considering SoO had double the bosses of Dragon Soul, and an extra mode, and world content via the Barrens Insurrection, and scenarios (which did have new options in the last patch, nevermind the option for Heroic Scenarios) and that the catch up mechanic from dungeons had been moved to Timeless Isle... I'd actually argue the 3 dungeons AND Dragon Soul at the end of Cata amounted to less than SoO on it's own. (And before you cry "LFR", SoO introduced Flex, so it introduced new modes equally.)

    "Brown colored glasses" at least allow my eyes to see. You, on the other hand, keep your eyes closed shut, AND covered with your hands.
    Sorry, but MoP was received well for a reason, and it's not because those who played it refuse to look at it.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2020-09-10 at 01:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    1) Timeless Isle gear, being random stats, was better than LFR gear in just about every way since you could customize the stats to your liking. The only pieces of LFR gear that outdid Timeless Isle gear was Trinkets and Tier Gear, for obvious reasons.
    Timeless gear were 496 item level (at the time) while SoO LFR was 528 (again, at the time). The fact that Timeless gear had random stats did not make them better. It made them worse, because you could go your entire time in the game, for those 14 months of content drought, and not get a piece of Timeless gear that had the stats you wanted. However, TG could get better item level than LFR (by 7 points) if you used a rare/expensive item called Burden of Eternity. But, again: very rare, and very expensive. IMO, the difference was not worth the intense grind.

    2) The "story" is never what people comment on, or we'd all have stopped playing back in Wrath.
    By "story" I meant the quests, the ones that tell the story.

    3) The daily wasn't the point, the grind existed and people did it. You can complain that you didn't like it all you want, people did it and people enjoyed the content.
    If you're going for "grinds as content" angle, Wrath had the Argent Tournament for the gear, pets and mounts.

    4) Dungeons had valor. YOU had plenty of valor as an overachieving raider, but not everyone did.
    Pro-tip: don't assume the kind of player I am, lest you risk making a fool of yourself. And no, I was never an "overachieving raider". I was a casual raider. But on topic: dungeons were useless to the average person because the valor points became useless after you bought all the gear and upgraded what raid gear you had, and IIRC, LFR gear did not upgrade.

    5) Scenarios weren't useless past the first one of the day, both because you could do all of your weekly Valor point grind in a single day (something you seem to have conveniently forgotten, you had 7 weekly bonuses in MoP which you could use at any point in the week, not refreshing daily),
    Great. So you did the scenarios 7 times in a day, and they would be useless for the whole rest of the week! Hooray...?

    and as mentioned, because DPS could continue to queue for them earning justice points for profession mats, and it would continue to use up queue time in other queues.
    Ignoring the fact you could not buy crafting materials with Justice Points in MoP, only in Cataclysm, each scenario gave you 50 justice points if you did not get gear from the cache. The cheapest full stack of mats (20 was full stack, at the time) was 1000 justice points. That would mean 20 scenarios. If, like you claimed, every scenario lasted roughly 5 minutes, that means you'd take over an hour and a half to gather 1000 justice points. You'd get a full stack of mats by gathering them in the world for half the time.

    And going back to the "no crafting materials in MoP for JP", those were sold for Spirits of Harmony, not Justice Points. Kind of throwing your entire arguments down the drain, there...

    You obviously haven't seen my post history. I've complained about the removal of Scenarios since the removal of Scenarios.
    You are just one person. When I said I haven't seen anyone make a request for the return of scenarios, I think it was obvious that there wasn't a widely requested feature to return. Or even "decently requested". Because when you say "it has been sorely missed since" you heavily imply that it's a feature a good chunk of the playerbase misses. You did not make it clear you speaking only about yourself, there.

    Good thing I didn't say "More people saw raid content than ever before" then.

    More people saw CONTENT than ever before. That's because people who couldn't previously move beyond LFR, moved into Flex. People who didn't like LFR for being far too easy, could do Flex if they enjoyed that. People who liked small group content, could do Flex instead of LFR. The addition of Cross Realms and subsequently oQueue made this much easier. I can't believe I have to explain this.
    That is not "seeing content". If you see LFR, then you see the content that exists within the raids. You see the game's story being told through the raids. There is no extra content locked behind extra difficulties, aside from the mythic-only phases that only a small handful of bosses have.

    And Wrath's last patch lasted one year, and people were sick of it 6 months in because there was no world content. The same problem happened in Cata, coincidentally offering absolutely no world content whatsovever. Their dungeon content did not satisfy the playerbase on it's own. And nothing else you mentioned even matters - Raids are introduced in EVERY final patch, and Darkmoon Faire was nothing until it had several more patches in order to add more to it.
    Six months. Wratch's last content patch lasted 6 months. Because patch 3.3.5 added the Ruby Sanctum. Also, funny how you berate me for "refusing to count scenarios", but then you go and do the same here by "refusing to count" the Argent Tournament dailies as world content.

    You're stretching INCREDIBLY far with your 'content' when you try to pass fishing contest and transmog as 'content,' but refuse to count Scenarios at all.
    This is highly ironic coming from you, considering these were your exact words in that very same post:
    You can complain that you didn't like it all you want, people did it and people enjoyed the content.
    Also, I "refused to count scenarios", because MoP's last patch did not add any scenario. If you cared to read what I wrote, you'd know I was talking about what the last patch added. And I commented on the scenarios in a previous post.

    Considering SoO had double the bosses of Dragon Soul, and an extra mode, and world content via the Barrens Insurrection, and scenarios (which did have new options in the last patch, nevermind the option for Heroic Scenarios) and that the catch up mechanic from dungeons had been moved to Timeless Isle... I'd actually argue the 3 dungeons AND Dragon Soul at the end of Cata amounted to less than SoO on it's own. (And before you cry "LFR", SoO introduced Flex, so it introduced new modes equally.)
    The "Barrens Insurrection" event ended when the Siege of Orgrimmar raid opened. So, no, it wasn't "something to do during the content drought".

    Sorry, but MoP was received well for a reason, and it's not because those who played it refuse to look at it.
    The expansion being "well received" is immaterial to the claim about its content drought.
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  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If the latest Brandon Sanderson book that has 2 or more days of spoken audio can be recorded during a pandemic then Blizzard can manage to do any amount of voice over work needed for WoW.
    Yea, makes total sense. 1 voice actor on a nearby studio is the same as a team of dozens of voice actors.

    Cmon man.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The poster I responded to wrote, and I quote: "Flex raiding let tons of people into content that might never have seen it otherwise." and that is false since LFR already existed for over a year, and that was its purpose: to let people see content that they might never see otherwise.
    Yes I saw what was written. But you seemed to be taking issue with specific wording in a few cherry picked words while ignoring the context.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That is not "seeing content". If you see LFR, then you see the content that exists within the raids. You see the game's story being told through the raids. There is no extra content locked behind extra difficulties, aside from the mythic-only phases that only a small handful of bosses have.
    Seriously, you're missing the point and arguing semantics. The poster has clarified what was meant and yet you're still trying to argue this point? The fact that people may have been able to "see the content" in LFR doesn't change the fact that Flex made organized, real raiding more accessible to a lot of players and thus gave that segment of players a reason to stay engaged with the game.

    At this point you're essentially trying to argue that the existence of LFR invalidates the existence of Flex, and that is a pretty ludicrous standpoint tbh.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    The thing is, for YOU it's the "make it or break it scenario", but that just means YOU (and others of course, but not the "general consensus") have reached this point.
    There has been people who have felt exactly the same as you for every single expansion before (hence why I've heard it already each time), and there will be for every expansion after. That's why there is a slow decay but the game keeps trudging along, and there is not an actual "make it or break it" point for the game as a whole.

    I mean, WoW survived WoD. I don't think it's even possible to antagonize sufficiently the entire fanbase to kill the game in one go if WoD couldn't manage it.
    As I said I was referring to MY impression so YOU underlining MY impression as being MY impression is weird.

    I don't give a fuck to convince anyone by the way if you had fun playing this so called expansion be my guest and continue having fun. This doesn't mean we have to share opinions does it? Jumping me for having a different opinion than you will prove utterly pointless for you so I strongly suggest that you move on.

    Btw I enjoyed WoD immensely. Best pvp, best high end transmog sets and even the raiding was not so bad. Again you don't have to agree with me I hope you know that. We are different. Learn to respect that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby451 View Post
    Funny. This is the first expansion EVER for me that my friends list is packed full of people every night (10+) still playing this late in the expansion. Usually a ghost town until the pre patch. Perhaps Covid played a big part in that. But in reality, the game is simply much better than the cesspool of negativity would lead you to believe.
    I base my opinions on my own experiences. Btw during Covid I found games like Division 2 that are light years better when it comes to community quality, gameplay, graphics quality, replayability etc. WoW should copy itself and follow the Legion success not this disaster that BfA was. Again, just because many people share the same opinion that I have it doesn't mean that we have collaborated to have the same opinion.
    WoW forums in a nutshell:
    m8 i've been around since Feb 2005, I know it all.
    So I was using a gold dupe hack. I don't know why i was banned for this. It is so unfair.
    People need an incentive to play content. "Its fun!" is simply not enough.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Timeless gear were 496 item level (at the time) while SoO LFR was 528 (again, at the time). The fact that Timeless gear had random stats did not make them better. It made them worse, because you could go your entire time in the game, for those 14 months of content drought, and not get a piece of Timeless gear that had the stats you wanted. However, TG could get better item level than LFR (by 7 points) if you used a rare/expensive item called Burden of Eternity. But, again: very rare, and very expensive. IMO, the difference was not worth the intense grind.
    So because you didn't want to grind for it, Timeless pieces don't count?

    Ironic. They were neither expensive nor very rare - RARE yes, but VERY rare not at all. You could literally spend an hour killing frogs and get a piece it was that simple.

    By "story" I meant the quests, the ones that tell the story.
    And? I told you before. Nobody comments on the story. Ever. If they did, we'd have all stopped playing back in Wrath, because the quests that tell a story have all sucked since then.

    If you're going for "grinds as content" angle, Wrath had the Argent Tournament for the gear, pets and mounts.
    That'd be on you for not mentioning it prior.

    Also, it wasn't in the last patch.

    Pro-tip: don't assume the kind of player I am, lest you risk making a fool of yourself. And no, I was never an "overachieving raider". I was a casual raider. But on topic: dungeons were useless to the average person because the valor points became useless after you bought all the gear and upgraded what raid gear you had, and IIRC, LFR gear did not upgrade.
    To assume, you'd have had to not tell us already that you and your group full cleared SoO on Heroic.

    Whether you like it or not, in MoP, you were an overachieving raider. So was I, as someone who only cleared up to heroic Klaxxi. We are a VERY small portion of the playerbase, having gotten into Heroic Raids at all.

    You don't have to be hardcore to raid Heroic. But you ARE overachieving compared to a large portion of the playerbase if you do.

    Great. So you did the scenarios 7 times in a day, and they would be useless for the whole rest of the week! Hooray...?
    As opposed to... What? A single dungeon daily for 7 times a week from Cata? You're not helping your own argument by attacking mine here.

    Ignoring the fact you could not buy crafting materials with Justice Points in MoP, only in Cataclysm, each scenario gave you 50 justice points if you did not get gear from the cache. The cheapest full stack of mats (20 was full stack, at the time) was 1000 justice points. That would mean 20 scenarios. If, like you claimed, every scenario lasted roughly 5 minutes, that means you'd take over an hour and a half to gather 1000 justice points. You'd get a full stack of mats by gathering them in the world for half the time.

    And going back to the "no crafting materials in MoP for JP", those were sold for Spirits of Harmony, not Justice Points. Kind of throwing your entire arguments down the drain, there...
    You're right, I was mistaking it for Cata.

    My point about Harmony still stands though. You easily got more harmony in group content, as the drop rate was higher from elite mobs than regular mobs.

    You are just one person. When I said I haven't seen anyone make a request for the return of scenarios, I think it was obvious that there wasn't a widely requested feature to return. Or even "decently requested". Because when you say "it has been sorely missed since" you heavily imply that it's a feature a good chunk of the playerbase misses. You did not make it clear you speaking only about yourself, there.
    And YOU are also just one person. When I said you haven't seen my post history, I was pointing out that obviously you haven't seen the entirety of every forum, nor every opinion out there which exists. In fact, you were surprised earlier today to see someone arguing in favor of WoD - Something which has been happening since WoD ended, even if I don't agree with it.

    So yes, I admit that my opinion is my opinion - I'm just not stupid enough to think I'm the only one with that opinion just because I haven't specifically seen it posted on this forum before.

    That is not "seeing content". If you see LFR, then you see the content that exists within the raids. You see the game's story being told through the raids. There is no extra content locked behind extra difficulties, aside from the mythic-only phases that only a small handful of bosses have.
    Then LFR isn't content either. The raid existed prior and people raided normal prior to LFR, so LFR was a useless introduction not worth mentioning ever either.

    You can just watch the content on a video after all. There's no extra content locked behind doing the fight yourself, aside from the gear which only matters if you're doing the raid. (Except it doesn't, cause you can clear the raid without the gear from within the raid.)

    Six months. Wratch's last content patch lasted 6 months. Because patch 3.3.5 added the Ruby Sanctum. Also, funny how you berate me for "refusing to count scenarios", but then you go and do the same here by "refusing to count" the Argent Tournament dailies as world content.
    Oh, right, my bad. In which case:
    Wrath: Ruby Sanctum
    MoP: Barrens Insurrection, SoO, Timeless Isle, Legendary Cloak finish quest, Flex Raiding...

    Suddenly Wrath's last patch looks REALLY bad, doesn't it? I haven't counted the Argent Dailies because they've been available since ToC. They're not last patch content. The Molten Front would ALSO count if that were the case, but it doesn't because it was with the Firelands patch, not the Dragon Soul patch.

    This is highly ironic coming from you, considering these were your exact words in that very same post:
    Really not though? I don't see the irony. Transmog is not content, it took existing content and attempted to breathe new life into it. It didn't help people see the content, people had already seen said content, they just had to go back again to get the look they may or may not have already gotten previously. This is the exact same argument you're making against Flex - That people already saw LFR, so they weren't seeing "new content" with Flex, they'd already seen it in LFR.

    And fishing contest... Do I really need to even attempt to explain why this isn't content? The reward from it can't even be considered content, it's a fucking heirloom ring.

    Also, I "refused to count scenarios", because MoP's last patch did not add any scenario. If you cared to read what I wrote, you'd know I was talking about what the last patch added. And I commented on the scenarios in a previous post.
    In fact, it was me who was mistaken, but not for the reason you said at all. I simply thought the Dark Heart scenario was added with the last patch, which it seems I was simply mistaken about.

    The "Barrens Insurrection" event ended when the Siege of Orgrimmar raid opened. So, no, it wasn't "something to do during the content drought".
    Oh, now it's not "stuff implemented during the last patch," it's "stuff to deal with the content drought." That clearly is not what was said here:
    • Wrath added 3 dungeons, a raid, automatic cross-server LFD, and a fishing event in its last ".0" patch. And then added a new, small raid with its last ".5" patch.
    • Cataclysm added 3 dungeons, a raid, transmogrification, LFR, and Darkmoon Island on heir last ".0" patch.
    • MoP added a raid, timeless isle, proving grounds, and flex raiding.
    If it's "stuff to deal with the content drought," then you take away all of ICC, all of the dungeons, cross server LFD... These were simply patch content WITH ICC. Ruby Sanctum is ALL we got to deal with the content drought. (And "fishing contest," but again: That's not content. It's revisiting old content that already existed.)
    As for Cata, we got NOTHING to deal with the content drought. The last patch was the last patch and we were expected to deal with it when it came to the drought. (Unless you count Darkmoon Faire, again, which isn't content because there was no content there at the time. It was an island where you grabbed a single quest to turn in a bunch of ears, earned from existing content. NOWADAYS the Darkmoon Faire would be content, because there's plenty to do there, but back when Cata launched it, it was a bunch of "to be filled in" areas that had no benefit to you.)

    The same with MoP. Because Blizzard RARELY ever tries to deal with the content drought. In fact, the only time they actually attempted to deal with the content drought was Wrath.

    But since you mentioned the Argent Tourney as 'content drought avoidance'... If we were to count non-last patch stuff:
    Wrath: Argent Tourney Dailies, ICC, Ruby Sanctum, Dungeons, Ulduar (Counted since it was done during content drought for Legendary Hammer)
    Cata: Molten Front Dailies, Tol Barad Dailies, Dragon Soul, LFR, Dungeons, Archaeology, Firelands (for Legendary Staff)
    MoP: Isle of Thunder Dailies, Insurrection Dailies, Initial Expansion Dailies, Timeless Isle, Isle of Giants, Cloud Serpent Riding, SoO, Flex, Scenarios, Heroic Scenarios, World Bosses, Player's Farm, Challenge Mode Dungeons, Proving Grounds (though considering how not-used this ended up being, I wouldn't even count it tbh), Dino mount farming (only mentioned separately as these were specific spawns to hunt down and had their own mechanics), Isle of Thunder treasure room runs (I still miss this)

    Still looks better for MoP than other expansions - And the others both got buffed up by their duo legendaries.

    (EDIT: Underlined world content for emphasis.)
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2020-09-10 at 10:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    So because you didn't want to grind for it, Timeless pieces don't count?

    Ironic. They were neither expensive nor very rare - RARE yes, but VERY rare not at all. You could literally spend an hour killing frogs and get a piece it was that simple.
    Funny. I did not said "they don't matter". I said they are quickly made obsolete by LFR. And, by the way: since you called me "the overachiever raider", let me put in some newsflash for you: not everyone is an "overachiever grinder" like you. I'd wager the majority of players don't really enjoy mindlessly grinding the same zero-challenge content for months on end for little reward.

    And? I told you before. Nobody comments on the story. Ever. If they did, we'd have all stopped playing back in Wrath, because the quests that tell a story have all sucked since then.
    You're moving the goalposts. I spoke about the story quests: i.e. that keep people occupied and progressing through the game. Not the writing.

    That'd be on you for not mentioning it prior.

    Also, it wasn't in the last patch.
    Now you're flip-flopping between what the expansion offers as a whole and what it offers on its last patch, since you used scenarios as "content to grind" when none was added in the last patch of MoP. Stick to one definition: is it the expansion "as a whole" or only what it offers "on its last patch"?

    To assume, you'd have had to not tell us already that you and your group full cleared SoO on Heroic.

    Whether you like it or not, in MoP, you were an overachieving raider. So was I, as someone who only cleared up to heroic Klaxxi. We are a VERY small portion of the playerbase, having gotten into Heroic Raids at all.

    You don't have to be hardcore to raid Heroic. But you ARE overachieving compared to a large portion of the playerbase if you do.
    Again, neither I or my guild were "overachiever raiders". And one slight correction on my part: we did not kill heroic Garrosh, only 25-man Garrosh. My bad. I mistook the word "heroic" to mean 25-man since that's how it used to be back in Wrath. No, never heroic Garrosh, just 25-man Garrosh. Heroic, our guild only progressed up to Norushen.

    As opposed to... What? A single dungeon daily for 7 times a week from Cata? You're not helping your own argument by attacking mine here.
    Except that was not my argument. You're the one that is using the VP reward as "grindable content" for the scenarios. I have never used the Cataclysm daily dungeons at all as an argument against you. I flat out said that grinding VP quickly becomes moot as you quickly max out the amount you could hold (I think 4k VP?) and nowhere to spend it.

    My point about Harmony still stands though. You easily got more harmony in group content, as the drop rate was higher from elite mobs than regular mobs.
    Elite mobs that exist within raids... the drop rate in the world wasn't really much different between elite and normal mobs.

    And YOU are also just one person. When I said you haven't seen my post history, I was pointing out that obviously you haven't seen the entirety of every forum, nor every opinion out there which exists. In fact, you were surprised earlier today to see someone arguing in favor of WoD - Something which has been happening since WoD ended, even if I don't agree with it.

    So yes, I admit that my opinion is my opinion - I'm just not stupid enough to think I'm the only one with that opinion just because I haven't specifically seen it posted on this forum before.
    Dude. Get real. Do you really think I'm going to browse over nine thousand posts to find evidence for your claims? That's not how it works.

    Then LFR isn't content either. The raid existed prior and people raided normal prior to LFR, so LFR was a useless introduction not worth mentioning ever either.
    Congratulations! You just invalidated your claims regarding Flex raiding! Because the raids existed prior and people raided normal and LFR prior to flex raiding being introduced. Nice point-blank shot to your own feet.

    Also, LFR did allow more players to see the content than before, because to get into normal raiding you need a group and not everyone has the time to dedicate for a full raid night (2-4 hours), and/or can only play during the day. But the introduction of LFR gave those people a way to raid at any hour of the day they want, without having to dedicate more than an hour. They kill 3 bosses today, tomorrow morning they kill three more, and three days from now they kill three more...

    Oh, right, my bad. In which case:
    Wrath: Ruby Sanctum
    MoP: Barrens Insurrection, SoO, Timeless Isle, Legendary Cloak finish quest, Flex Raiding...
    ... Again: Barrens Insurrection was removed when patch 5.4 hit.

    Suddenly Wrath's last patch looks REALLY bad, doesn't it? I haven't counted the Argent Dailies because they've been available since ToC. They're not last patch content. The Molten Front would ALSO count if that were the case, but it doesn't because it was with the Firelands patch, not the Dragon Soul patch.
    And yet you did count scenarios that have existed since MoP day 1 as "grindable content"? Of which none was added in MoP's last patch? Sounds a bit... disingenuous.

    Really not though? I don't see the irony. Transmog is not content, it took existing content and attempted to breathe new life into it.
    And yet... flex raiding is somehow "new content" and not "an attempt to breathe new life into existing content"...

    And fishing contest... Do I really need to even attempt to explain why this isn't content? The reward from it can't even be considered content, it's a fucking heirloom ring.
    Yeah. A heirloom ring people use every time they decide to level a new alt. And on top of that, here's some words of your own that you should keep in mind:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    You can complain that you didn't like it all you want, people did it and people enjoyed the content.
    Oh, now it's not "stuff implemented during the last patch," it's "stuff to deal with the content drought." That clearly is not what was said here:

    If it's "stuff to deal with the content drought," then you take away all of ICC, all of the dungeons, cross server LFD... These were simply patch content WITH ICC. Ruby Sanctum is ALL we got to deal with the content drought.
    I disqualified the Barrens Insurrection because it was removed from the game when Patch 5.4 hit the live servers. Meaning you could not do Barrens Insurrection anymore. Just like you can't do the "building the Argent Tournament" dailies anymore, after the ToC patch hit live servers, back in Wrath.

    As for Cata, we got NOTHING to deal with the content drought. The last patch was the last patch and we were expected to deal with it when it came to the drought. (Unless you count Darkmoon Faire, again, which isn't content because there was no content there at the time. It was an island where you grabbed a single quest to turn in a bunch of ears, earned from existing content. NOWADAYS the Darkmoon Faire would be content, because there's plenty to do there, but back when Cata launched it, it was a bunch of "to be filled in" areas that had no benefit to you.)
    You seem to have a warped, nebulous definition of "new content". Does every single thing about what is added has to be "new" for it to be considered "new content"? Because by your logic, the Barrens Insurrection wasn't "new content", since we would still be in the Barrens (old content) killing the Horde (old content). Flex raiding also wouldn't be "new content" since we could still be going into the same instance to kill the same bosses. Define what you mean by "new content", please.

    But since you mentioned the Argent Tourney as 'content drought avoidance'... If we were to count non-last patch stuff:
    Wrath: Argent Tourney Dailies, ICC, Ruby Sanctum, Dungeons, Ulduar (Counted since it was done during content drought for Legendary Hammer)
    Cata: Molten Front Dailies, Tol Barad Dailies, Dragon Soul, LFR, Dungeons, Archaeology, Firelands (for Legendary Staff)
    MoP: Isle of Thunder Dailies, Insurrection Dailies, Initial Expansion Dailies, Timeless Isle, Isle of Giants, Cloud Serpent Riding, SoO, Flex, Scenarios, Heroic Scenarios, World Bosses, Player's Farm, Challenge Mode Dungeons, Proving Grounds (though considering how not-used this ended up being, I wouldn't even count it tbh), Dino mount farming (only mentioned separately as these were specific spawns to hunt down and had their own mechanics), Isle of Thunder treasure room runs (I still miss this)

    Still looks better for MoP than other expansions - And the others both got buffed up by their duo legendaries.
    Your list looks very dishonest, for several reasons. Here's some of them:
    • You're refusing to count the fishing event for Wrath, and yet you count MoP's farm.
    • You're not counting LFD added in Wrath.
    • You're not counting the legendary axe in Wrath.
    • You're counting scenarios and heroic scenarios separately.
    • You're counting Insurrection dailies, which were removed from the game when the last patch of MoP went live.
    • You're counting dino mount farming but not the mount farming of Wrath, like the Time-Lost Proto-Drake.
    • You're counting world bosses for MoP, but not for Cata or Wrath. Which existed within Vault of Archavon and Baradin Hold, respectively. And they had the advantage of not having to fight for "faction tap", too.
    • You're counting the "initial expansion dailies" for MoP, but not doing the same for Wrath and Cataclysm.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Yes I saw what was written. But you seemed to be taking issue with specific wording in a few cherry picked words while ignoring the context.
    Which is funny considering you originally took one single line out of my whole post and responded to that single one in a vacuum.

    Seriously, you're missing the point and arguing semantics. The poster has clarified what was meant and yet you're still trying to argue this point? The fact that people may have been able to "see the content" in LFR doesn't change the fact that Flex made organized, real raiding more accessible to a lot of players and thus gave that segment of players a reason to stay engaged with the game.

    At this point you're essentially trying to argue that the existence of LFR invalidates the existence of Flex, and that is a pretty ludicrous standpoint tbh.
    The simple fact you believe that shows that you're not actually reading what I'm writing, since that was never my point.

    I said that LFR invalidates his claim for the purpose for the creation of Flex raiding. He said Flex raiding was created "to allow more people to see content they otherwise would not", which is just objectively false, since that is what LFR is for. LFR was created to those who "otherwise would not see the content", i.e. could not get into organized raiding.
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  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Your list looks very dishonest, for several reasons. Here's some of them:
    • You're refusing to count the fishing event for Wrath, and yet you count MoP's farm.
    • You're not counting LFD added in Wrath.
    • You're not counting the legendary axe in Wrath.
    • You're counting scenarios and heroic scenarios separately.
    • You're counting Insurrection dailies, which were removed from the game when the last patch of MoP went live.
    • You're counting dino mount farming but not the mount farming of Wrath, like the Time-Lost Proto-Drake.
    • You're counting world bosses for MoP, but not for Cata or Wrath. Which existed within Vault of Archavon and Baradin Hold, respectively. And they had the advantage of not having to fight for "faction tap", too.
    • You're counting the "initial expansion dailies" for MoP, but not doing the same for Wrath and Cataclysm.
    I'm not going through and addressing the same points over and over again. But this, I will:

    -The fishing event wasn't content, is why. Explain what content it had. Spoiler: Fishing spots across northrend already existed. I'll wait.
    -LFD ALSO isn't content. It's a system used to EXPERIENCE content.
    -The legendary axe in Wrath is earned through ICC, it's covered in that point, the same way Fangs of the Father is covered in Dragon Soul, and the Legendary Cape is covered by SoO. If I really wanted to be disingenuous, I could have listed every raid in for the Legendary Cape quest in MoP, since every single raid was required by each character, so if you weren't caught up it was technically doable during the drought. I chose not to, because it's fairer to not list those. (And MoP still comes out WAY ahead.)
    -Scenarios and Heroic Scenarios were different content.
    -INSURRECTION dailies were NOT removed. That's the 5.1 dailies which still exist in Krasarang Wilds. The Barrens HAD NO DAILIES, it was a big world event leading up to SoO involving rare spawns and item turn ins, not dailies, and that's why it got removed.
    -Time Lost Proto Drake had no mechanics, and was a random spawn. The dinosaur spawns each had 4 separate mechanics, all 4 on the big ones, and 2 random ones on the small ones. If we count Time Lost Proto Drake as 'content', we have to count every single random NPC in game as content, and I'm most certainly not going to go through that. We're talking content, not rewards, and you need to get that through your head.
    -Because by definition, those bosses aren't world bosses. They aren't in the world. They don't have unique drops. They just drop what already exists elsewhere. But if you REALLY must, feel free to add "Baradin Hold" and "Vault of Archavon" to your list, even if they were just tier supplements they did technically have their own unique mechanics.
    -Wrath had no initial dailies. Or if you're trying to reach for the Tuskarr dailies, feel free, but you're stretching incredibly far for something which just doesn't work in your favor - One or two dailies doesn't match up to 4 reps worth of dailies every day. The same holds true for Cata. Their endgame at the start was the rep tabards which you used to grind dungeons more - But dungeons are already listed.

    But I'm through with this conversation. You claim I'm moving goal posts, when I haven't changed what I've said one time. Then, coincidentally, when I point out that you've directly contradicted your own definition of 'content' in defining what is and isn't content, you somehow claim it's me who's done it and not you.

    You're impossible to hold a conversation with, since you can't stick to a point for more than half a post.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2020-09-10 at 04:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    Yea, makes total sense. 1 voice actor on a nearby studio is the same as a team of dozens of voice actors. Cmon man.
    All dozen are not required to be in studio at the same time. If two people can do a total of 48 or more hours of voice then Blizzard can do it with out COVID being an issue.
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  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I said that LFR invalidates his claim for the purpose for the creation of Flex raiding. He said Flex raiding was created "to allow more people to see content they otherwise would not", which is just objectively false, since that is what LFR is for. LFR was created to those who "otherwise would not see the content", i.e. could not get into organized raiding.
    Or, and hear me out on this:

    Multiple things can have the same purpose.

    Shocker, I know. LFR was to get people into Raid content. Flex is to help ease the transition from LFR to Normal, since they realized it was getting huge and they couldn't properly make both work AND have a proper progression in their previous states. Both were to help people see content they otherwise would not.

    It's almost like, all expansion long they struggled to find a proper fit in difficulty between LFR and Normal, almost like the part of the playerbase who enjoys braindead queueable content isn't the same as those who enjoy raid content that is easy to acces or something - So towards the end of the expansion, decided that rather than try and fail to bridge that gap for yet another entire expansion, maybe it would be easier if there was a transition difficulty - One that exists between the easiest mode, and the step up in difficulty that people who queue for content don't want to skill up in order to overcome. A difficulty that exists that is puggable, but not queueable. Maybe it could even F L E X to different group sizes, allowing variable numbers of people into the raid, really pushing forward a message of "inclusivity" in this raid group. Something like that might explain how these two things, introduced for the same reason, might coexist in harmony. But that's silly, right? That couldn't possibly be the case.

    Really, you're making such a convoluted argument out of nothing at all. Especially considering this is just a disagreement of opinion. You can love Wrath and Cata all you want, I even like Wrath more than MoP, my opinion of MoP doesn't change your special feelings towards other expansions.

    I'm just pointing out - Factually - That MoP had a lot more world content than the other expansions, and a lot more content in general. This shouldn't be surprising. New content SHOULD have more content than old content. That's to be expected.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2020-09-10 at 04:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    As I said I was referring to MY impression so YOU underlining MY impression as being MY impression is weird.
    No, I just said that I doubt it will really be "make it or break it scenario".
    I don't give a fuck to convince anyone by the way if you had fun playing this so called expansion be my guest and continue having fun.
    I haven't. My own "make it or break it" was Legion. It didn't make it.
    This doesn't mean we have to share opinions does it? Jumping me for having a different opinion than you will prove utterly pointless for you so I strongly suggest that you move on.
    Not jumping you, just expressed my doubt. No need to be so defensive.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    It is a design choice, not a problem. As an aspiring game developer, I'd love to know your idea on how to solve ever-increasing in number abilities as expansions progress in a 16 year old game.
    the design is the problem, as for what to do, instead of trying pass the "oooh shiny" thing off and hope we forget the horrible base/core, make the base/core of each spec and class actually complete and rewarding. and not pile system/borrowed power on top of each multiple times over.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    the design is the problem, as for what to do, instead of trying pass the "oooh shiny" thing off and hope we forget the horrible base/core, make the base/core of each spec and class actually complete and rewarding. and not pile system/borrowed power on top of each multiple times over.
    Well, no matter how complete it is, when you get "ooh shiny" and then lose "ooh shiny" you will feel incomplete. The design is a solution to the age of the game. If this was a game that only exists for 3-5 years, you could add new "ooh shiny" every year and be fine with it. But with WoW you gotta think a liiiiittle broader than that. It's 16 years. 16 years worth of "ooh shiny" would be overwhelming.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Or, and hear me out on this:

    Multiple things can have the same purpose.
    And then you go and list different purposes for LFR and Flex raiding:
    LFR was to get people into Raid content. Flex is to help ease the transition from LFR to Normal
    Flex was not created to let "more people see content they otherwise wouldn't", because LFR already existed and allowed people see the content (i.e. the raids). To say the purpose of Flex raiding was to "let more people see content they otherwise wouldn't" is just blatantly false, because the means already existed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    -The fishing event wasn't content, is why. Explain what content it had. Spoiler: Fishing spots across northrend already existed. I'll wait.
    It's a competition that drives players to engage with the world, and gives them special rewards for doing so. Also, it is horribly dishonest of you to dismiss the fishing event as "not content", and yet count the "cloud serpent riding" as content.

    -LFD ALSO isn't content. It's a system used to EXPERIENCE content.
    And yet you consider LFR and Flex raiding "content". Dishonest much?

    -The legendary axe in Wrath is earned through ICC, it's covered in that point, the same way Fangs of the Father is covered in Dragon Soul, and the Legendary Cape is covered by SoO. If I really wanted to be disingenuous, I could have listed every raid in for the Legendary Cape quest in MoP, since every single raid was required by each character, so if you weren't caught up it was technically doable during the drought. I chose not to, because it's fairer to not list those. (And MoP still comes out WAY ahead.)
    In your opinion. In my opinion, the cloak was the worse of all legendary quest lines from Wrath to WoD because it forced you to fight in PvP battlegrounds.

    -Scenarios and Heroic Scenarios were different content.
    They were the same content.

    -INSURRECTION dailies were NOT removed. That's the 5.1 dailies which still exist in Krasarang Wilds. The Barrens HAD NO DAILIES, it was a big world event leading up to SoO involving rare spawns and item turn ins, not dailies, and that's why it got removed.
    You're talking about Landfall dailies, then. Not "insurrection". Insurrection means "violent action that is taken by a large group of people against the rulers of their country, usually in order to remove them from office." So you can see my confusion, here.

    -Time Lost Proto Drake had no mechanics, and was a random spawn. The dinosaur spawns each had 4 separate mechanics, all 4 on the big ones, and 2 random ones on the small ones. If we count Time Lost Proto Drake as 'content', we have to count every single random NPC in game as content, and I'm most certainly not going to go through that. We're talking content, not rewards, and you need to get that through your head.
    "No mechanics"... It's a rare spawn. It doesn't matter if they had "mechanics". It's a rare mount spawn. So what if the dino mount NPCs had "separate mechanics"? You're really going with arbitrary definitions here. And on top of that, those mechanics could be found on other mobs and the mounts too could be found in different colors elsewhere, so by your definition they're not "new content".

    -Wrath had no initial dailies. Or if you're trying to reach for the Tuskarr dailies, feel free, but you're stretching incredibly far for something which just doesn't work in your favor - One or two dailies doesn't match up to 4 reps worth of dailies every day. The same holds true for Cata. Their endgame at the start was the rep tabards which you used to grind dungeons more - But dungeons are already listed.
    3 dailies in Borean Tundra: 2 in Coldarra, for Kirin tor; 1 for the Tuskarr.
    3 dailies in Dragonblight: 2 for the Tuskarr; 1 for the dragons.
    10 dailies in Grizzly Hills: 9 for the Alliance; 9 for the Horde; 1 neutral.
    12 dailies in Zul'Drak: 12 for the Argent Crusade
    3 dailies in Howling Fjord: 2 Alliance, 1 Tuskarr.
    12 dailies in Storm Peaks: 1 for the goblins; 10 for the Frost Giants; 1 for the Alliance.
    20 dailies in Ice Crown: 14 for the Alliance; 14 for the Horde; 6 for the Knights of Ebon Blade. And I'm not even counting the ones added in the ToC patch.

    How's that for your claim of "Wrath had no initial dailies"? Second time I have to correct you.

    But I'm through with this conversation. You claim I'm moving goal posts, when I haven't changed what I've said one time.
    You flip-flop between what existed throughout the whole expansion, and just "what is added on last patch.

    Then, coincidentally, when I point out that you've directly contradicted your own definition of 'content' in defining what is and isn't content, you somehow claim it's me who's done it and not you.
    You're the one that hasn't defined what you think is "content".

    You're impossible to hold a conversation with, since you can't stick to a point for more than half a post.
    You're the one who don't seem to have a fixed position, considering you flip-flop between definitions. Also, I'll repost a question that you ignored:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You seem to have a warped, nebulous definition of "new content". Does every single thing about what is added has to be "new" for it to be considered "new content"? Because by your logic, the Barrens Insurrection wasn't "new content", since we would still be in the Barrens (old content) killing the Horde (old content). Flex raiding also wouldn't be "new content" since we could still be going into the same instance to kill the same bosses. Define what you mean by "new content", please.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2020-09-10 at 10:12 PM.
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  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is always amusing when people complain about borrowed power per expansion yet want it to go back to borrowing power per tier. It really is just the latest buzzword to use to hate on Blizzard/WoW.
    ah, but it isn't by tier you can mix and match, it also changed or hotfixed some balance issues in real time.. as if your class is behind in power the following tier can have a small tier set change that makes balance tuning less required.
    Its kind of like having a bunch of cups full of water rather than an entire jug.. its easier to filter a smaller issue if you dont have to dive through a swimming pool to address it.
    Make sure if you still play your voice is heard if it matters to you, Mine wasn't.
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  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That is the problem though. Not everything is a retcon just because it gives new information. Not everything is a retcon just because it changes what we knew with past events. Kael'thas reappearing in Magisters Terrace was not a retcon even though we last saw him die in Tempest Keep. It was new information. You are arguing that it was a ret con.

    Shadowlands doesn't retcon the things you've stated here. It explains those things in further detail. Chronicles may have retconed a little but it still works with in the prior lore regarding Shadowlands, the helm, and the blade.
    Okay, I'll give you an example.

    Take Marvelman. When Alan Moore got his hands on the character, he changed his backstory in a way that reframed all of his previous adventures, deeds i.e. his entire experience as a superhero so they were basically just memories that were implanted into his brain as part of a simulation for a military research project. Does that change any particular details about his backstory? Not really, because the stories themselves haven't changed. In a way, Moore also only "added" new information here but that new information completely reframes the entirety of his character, his stories and thereby completely changes their meaning.

    I'm not saying that it's on the same level but it's the same thing in principle. Going back into the past and adding/changing information to reframe events and therefor altering the meaning of those events is a retcon.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Or, and hear me out on this:

    Multiple things can have the same purpose.

    Shocker, I know. LFR was to get people into Raid content. Flex is to help ease the transition from LFR to Normal, since they realized it was getting huge and they couldn't properly make both work AND have a proper progression in their previous states. Both were to help people see content they otherwise would not.
    I agree partially.

    There is a shared purpose between LFR and Flex that was to make raiding more accessible to a larger portion of the playerbase than just the hardcore Heroic (which would later become mythic) raiding audience. But I disagree that the purpose of FLEX was provide a bridge from LFR into normal. I would argue that LFR and what is now Normal/Heroic/Mythic are two different progression paths designed to cater to different modes of play. Specifically LFR provides an automated group formation mode of play, while N/H/M are a mode which requires players to form groups. Flex and LFR differ significantly in their target audiences.

    At its inception, I believe Flex was intended to address two significant problems with raiding that were contributing towards a lack of accessibility:
    1) The growing gap between content difficulty and player ability. In short, raid encounters were getting progressively harder as top end players were getting better, and two difficulty settings wasn't enough to cover the spectrum of players who were interested in raiding outside of the LFR mode.
    2) The fixed group size constraint for raiding was a significant problem for a lot of groups. Firstly it meant that all raiding groups had to have a big enough bench to ensure enough people to fill the group, which meant people having to sit out which isn't fun. Secondly, it meant a risk of not being able to raid if a few people can't make it (or have to cancel at the last minute). Flex meant you could include everyone all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    It's almost like, all expansion long they struggled to find a proper fit in difficulty between LFR and Normal, almost like the part of the playerbase who enjoys braindead queueable content isn't the same as those who enjoy raid content that is easy to acces or something
    The point of LFR is to have queueable content. The difficulty (or lack thereof) is an inevitable consequence of that mode of play. Flex was a way of making regular raiding more accessible by removing some of the unnecessary constraints.

    As I see it there are currently 3 modes of raiding and 4 difficulty settings. The modes are:
    • Queueable
    • Flexible
    • Fixed

    Queueable is only feasible on the lowest difficulty, a difficulty that is laughably easy for anyone who would be bothered with actually organising a group - hence LFR is both a mode and a difficulty - although, as previously mentioned, the difficulty is purely a consequence of the mode.

    Flexible works for non-competitive forms of raiding. The only reason there is no LFR level difficulty for Flex is that it would be basically pointless.

    Fixed group size is necessary for competitive raiding. Given the existence of flex it makes no sense to apply it to the lower difficulties

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Flex was not created to let "more people see content they otherwise wouldn't", because LFR already existed and allowed people see the content (i.e. the raids). To say the purpose of Flex raiding was to "let more people see content they otherwise wouldn't" is just blatantly false, because the means already existed
    The fact that LFR existed and allowed people to see the content doesn't disqualify Flex from doing the same thing for a different subset of players. A lot of players have little or no interest in doing LFR, but do have an interest in doing it in Flex

    And the pertinent point being made is that Flex gave a lot of players something to do at the end of MoP which helped to mitigate, to some extent, the impact of the long content drought. Unless you disagree with this premise, there seems to be little reason to continue to argue this particular point.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    It's almost like, all expansion long they struggled to find a proper fit in difficulty between LFR and Normal,
    Except... this is nothing but your opinion. And you're wrong in that assessment, as I explained earlier.

    On top of that, "flex raiding" was not introduced to "bridge the gap" between LFR and Normal, but to test the new "flex raiding" mechanic that allows the raid instance to auto-balance itself according to the number of players in the raid, and according to the number of players that enter/leave the instance automatically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The fact that LFR existed and allowed people to see the content doesn't disqualify Flex from doing the same thing for a different subset of players. A lot of players have little or no interest in doing LFR, but do have an interest in doing it in Flex
    But there was no "different subset of players" who "could not do normal raiding" and "refused to do LFR". If they wanted to see the raid content, LFR was there for them, because that was the intention for its implementation: to give players who could not, for whatever reason, allocate a fixed amount of hours per week to dedicate to organized raiding. I.e. players who could not see the raid content, by allowing them to do parts of the instance at their own time.
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  20. #180
    The worst expansion of all time is the longest...

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