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  1. #41
    they do make it harder on themselves but the players don't help either when the lesser skilled players see their dps compared to the 1% they blame balance vs acknowledging the skill gap. I know my dps will never be top tier cause 1) i don't enjoy dps, 2) I'm not that good at it. Blizz aims at the avg player for balance as well from what I've been told at the benefit dinner at previous cons.
    Member: Shadow Lands Alpha Club, Member since 4/9/2020

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    It's impossible to balance everything. And even if it was possible, shit like this would happen so it's kind of a pointless effort to begin with.

    The problem with modern WoW is that the systems they design aren't put in simply "because fuck you," as most players on this forum will say. They exist because modern WoW is very much a byproduct of a paradigm shift in how games in general are designed. It's the same reason you see shit like the new Marvel's Avengers game being transitioned from a single player experience to a live service chock full of microtransactions. A simple video game is no longer enough to sustain itself. There are so many people working in the industry and so many mouths to feed for large Triple-A game studios that in order for anything to be considered profitable in today's video game climate it has to have hours and hours of repeatable content (or, as Triple-A developers will call it... engagement). WoW is no different in this regard, except in the very unique way that it was already pretty grindy before game developers became obsessed with engagement data; it just became even more so in recent years. It doesn't look like this trend will be letting up any time soon so the best bet for us, as fans of WoW, is to hope that they learn from the issues of prior systems and continue to iterate on them to a point that doesn't make the game feel like a chore to play. On that front, I'm skeptical about Shadowlands for a number of reasons but only time will tell.
    Not sure what this has to do with what I said? Was there a specific reason you quoted me?

    Also side question. Do you have anything to make me believe that micro-transactions and other extras are incorporated because companies have "mouths to feed"? Like data on development costs vs profit for example? Because I sincerely doubt it.

  3. #43
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    You get intricate, fiddly systems because the developers and class designers from the top down are essentially engineers who worship theory-crafting and the systems associated with it. As for balance, I 100% disagree that you would even desire that. That sort of balance would make choice meaningless. You might as well choose anything in that case since perfect balance would lead to the same result for everyone. Deep complicated math isn't fun and neither are the systems that come out of it.

    It's much preferable to have choices and things that have advantages in one place and disadvantages in others.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  4. #44
    We simply can't have it both ways.

    Complicated, ability galore with rotations and different ways to play but as a result unbalanced because of countless dependancies

    or:

    Simple, few abilities with a set but small rotation

    I prefer the first one as long as it is not needlesly bloated... *cough* *ff14* *cough*

    And seeing how many abilities we have (and yes we have enough abilities tbh) the balancing is good enough. Every spec is good. Except maybe the pure dmg classes. There is always one who falls short. But never unplayable.

  5. #45
    They have been pretty bad at it forever to be honest. What really baffles me though is that they seem to keep making it harder for themselves by adding overlapping systems that change how strong your character is. I like having more systems but if you can't balance them, perhaps try something different?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightytasty View Post
    No, players don’t need all those systems. Blizzard’s obsession with borrowed power during the last 3 expansions has diluted class gameplay and made end game progression overly complex.

    They had the perfect formula during Wrath-MoP where class gameplay stood on its own, and the only borrowed power systems were tier set bonuses and trinkets.
    The problem is that gets old real fast. People want new shit every expansion. So borrowed power is the solution they went with, its not perfect at all and is rather have them do other things to male things feel fresh.

  7. #47
    They aren't bad at balancing - they are terrible
    I somehow understand that they can't rework classes every month, but I will never understand why they can't do balance passes every 2 weeks
    If a spec does -7% dmg than other - why not buff their dmg aura by like 3-4% to make them more competetive?
    No, the spec will stay shit for half a year

    Terrible, terrible balancing

    And all these stupid (can't call them otherwise) systems, overarching one another and bugging themselves.
    I'm at a loss of words

  8. #48
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Are Blizzard bad at balancing? Probably not.
    Yeah, they really are.

    You do realize that there are countless games out there with even more combinations than the watered down Retail WoW?

    This is really like how some Americans think that the US COVID response was as good as it could be. As if there are no other countries in this world that clearly demonstrate we could have done so very much better.

    Stop accepting the excuses Blizz keeps giving you. Clearly they aren't putting their all into this. Blizz top executives are investing next to nothing in WoW.

  9. #49
    Blizzard is great at balancing. Thread closed.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeons View Post
    Blizzard is great at balancing. Thread closed.
    It's still open. Fake news^^

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewalrus2010 View Post
    Not sure what this has to do with what I said? Was there a specific reason you quoted me?

    Also side question. Do you have anything to make me believe that micro-transactions and other extras are incorporated because companies have "mouths to feed"? Like data on development costs vs profit for example? Because I sincerely doubt it.
    I quoted you because you were droning on about some bullshit of Blizzard "creating a FotM" class on purpose. This is a very dull take.

    And you needn't look further than the trends of every fucking major game developer in the industry to understand why the engagement data is quite literally the only thing ever mentioned in their Quarterly Reports. Engagement in a product is indicative of the brand's strength in marketing. Strong marketing of an IP means that consumers are more likely to continue consuming that product. This is what is driving the modern video game industry.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shedaar View Post
    They aren't bad at balancing - they are terrible
    I somehow understand that they can't rework classes every month, but I will never understand why they can't do balance passes every 2 weeks
    If a spec does -7% dmg than other - why not buff their dmg aura by like 3-4% to make them more competetive?
    No, the spec will stay shit for half a year

    Terrible, terrible balancing

    And all these stupid (can't call them otherwise) systems, overarching one another and bugging themselves.
    I'm at a loss of words
    You should do what all other WoW consumers do: Continue to pay $15/mo for the product while complaining about how miserable it makes you on online forums. It's quite effective, as this thread has proven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It's much preferable to have choices and things that have advantages in one place and disadvantages in others.
    The issue in WoW is that outliers in this game are often so powerful that even if they aren't the "best" at everything, guilds will develop strategy which play to the favor of the strongest "meta" classes, thereby exacerbating the "balance" issue frequently complained about on forums. (ie, bringing mobs that would usually be spread out together so that Fire Mages can cleave them)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Yeah, they really are.

    You do realize that there are countless games out there with even more combinations than the watered down Retail WoW?

    This is really like how some Americans think that the US COVID response was as good as it could be. As if there are no other countries in this world that clearly demonstrate we could have done so very much better.

    Stop accepting the excuses Blizz keeps giving you. Clearly they aren't putting their all into this. Blizz top executives are investing next to nothing in WoW.
    Ah, I can die happy now. Somebody has finally equated balance in a video game where people slay internet dragons for imaginary loot with United States' response to COVID-19. Is this the new Godwin's Law?

  12. #52
    Legendary! Darkeon's Avatar
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    I don't think balancing, without completely neutering everything into the same colored blob, is an easy task. I would say things are pretty decent, all things considered.

  13. #53
    yes they are and the worst part is that they dont lissen to us wr 1-50 players that playing their class at 100% peak for 10+ years and theory crafters that do way better math about Balance suggestions
    We literally told blizz to nerf Ignite scaling way back in 7.1.5 on fire Mages and we told them in fucking BFA beta Boomkins starfall wont be used and that they dont have any aoe in their kit while also have dogshit ST dps and see now boomkins fighting for wost dps slot in game together with sub rogues while Mages doing 30% more dps than anyone else
    If they would have listened Just ones we would not have this mess
    I.O BFA Season 3


  14. #54
    They're bad at prioritization and time management. A focus on systems first, classes second means that quality of life concerns will always take the back seat. Combine this with Ion's approach to community feedback, and, well...

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Snip

    It is rich of you to assume that I pay for the game
    No, I don't, I haven't been playing since 8.3
    Don't act so mighty little man

    Topic:
    I wish they at least had some long term vision instead of scrapping systems every expansion and building other ones, this is neverending cycle of balance breaking things

  16. #56
    Warchief Sluvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shedaar View Post
    They aren't bad at balancing - they are terrible
    I somehow understand that they can't rework classes every month, but I will never understand why they can't do balance passes every 2 weeks
    If a spec does -7% dmg than other - why not buff their dmg aura by like 3-4% to make them more competetive?
    No, the spec will stay shit for half a year

    Terrible, terrible balancing

    And all these stupid (can't call them otherwise) systems, overarching one another and bugging themselves.
    I'm at a loss of words
    Point me to a MMO that has a better balance than WoW. Please.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    Point me to a MMO that has a better balance than WoW. Please.
    Counterstrike, path of exile, albion online, final fantasy, i'd even say TESO due to the fact that you can respec into the best builds of your class at anytime, so even if something changes you can change your choice with relatively low effort

    Yes, I said counterstrike for the lolz

  18. #58
    Warchief Sluvs's Avatar
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    Path of Exile is an Action RPG, Albion Online Does not even have proper classes (also, not balanced and WAY simpler) Final Fantasy is not even close, there are dead specs and Red mage is purposefully undertuned, as the devs have said mutiple times, and ESO also has plenty of problems, Also being able to respecc into a better spec is the opposite of balance.

    I know it's cool to hate blizzard and all that, but WoW is incredibly balanced compared to the other MMOs. Its not even close. There is room for improvement and I think these systems upon system are stupid, but EVERY class is viable, even if one spec or the other fall a little behind, you can still play one and do well enough.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by barrsftw View Post
    They're okay at balancing. In general the game is pretty balanced tbh considering it's an MMORPG.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    You touched on it yourself. The issue itself isn't so much they are bad at balancing, but more they add too many convoluted systems that add way too much complexity to the game. Then due to the systems, they encounter unforeseen circumstances, which were totally predictable by the player base
    Shit was never balance even when there were no convoluted systems. When you have this many options, balancing becomes near impossible. Games that manage to do it typically are so homogenized classes are basically just different skins with very similar abilities across all classes/specs. Which is something no one wants. Can they do better? Sure. But classes have never been at a point where the community would consider balanced.

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