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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    You know that we have both SnD and RtB now right?
    I did not. Last time I looked RtB replaced SnD. I'd heard that they'd give RtB a cooldown. So the deal now is keep SnD up, use RtB on cooldown hoping for good buffs?
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  2. #22
    What about:

    Broadsides: Unchanged. You finish more often but have to watch out in order to not waste CPs.
    True Bearing: Unchanged. Maybe add another sec of CD reduction. You follow rotation as usual.
    Ruthless Precision: Gives an even higher crit chance than it does now. You dont BtE since you already have a very high crit.
    Buried Treasure: Gives an even higher energy regen boost.. A mini adrenaline rush of sorts that you don't wan't to stack with regular AR to not cap energy.
    Grand Melee: Very high attack speed buff. Lowers GCD by X amount. Still gives some % leech. You follow your rotation as usual but much faster.

    You only get one buff. In rare occasions you can get all of them and destroy everything in your way


    But really, whoever came up with this skill in the first place should have known that in this game, this level of RNG is bound to cause dissatisfaction.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I did not. Last time I looked RtB replaced SnD. I'd heard that they'd give RtB a cooldown. So the deal now is keep SnD up, use RtB on cooldown hoping for good buffs?
    Exactly. So now you just have to accept a bad buff until RtB is off CD which you can say force a more smooth gameplay however it still results in a bad performance. I think sometimes people miss the point of why we were rerolling in BFA. It was not because we wanted to but because bad rolls gave bad performance. And they still do sadly. Right now Grand Melee is the worst buff and when you get it you cannot do anything to get rid of it until RtB is off CD. At least our conduits help the situation significantly.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Exactly. So now you just have to accept a bad buff until RtB is off CD which you can say force a more smooth gameplay however it still results in a bad performance. I think sometimes people miss the point of why we were rerolling in BFA. It was not because we wanted to but because bad rolls gave bad performance. And they still do sadly. Right now Grand Melee is the worst buff and when you get it you cannot do anything to get rid of it until RtB is off CD. At least our conduits help the situation significantly.
    Yep. The problem with RtB is it's very core. First, you have six different buffs with very wide power differences - so if you get lots of bad combos, your performance will suffer independently from your skill. It's literally bad luck, but has way too much impact on performance.

    And then we get to the next part. Adding a CD and the conduits, makes the rotation smoother and you need less reroll overall, reducing variance by a good amount. However the problem is exactly that: RtB is functional when you don't have to reroll, and this makes it just a "fire and forget" button by taking out its own mechanic. It's the same as making all the buffs perfectly balanced, you don't have rerolling issue but then you're taking away everything from the skill itself.

    It just "cannot work". However if they made it a baseline "roll 2 or 3 buffs" only, and balance Outlaw on that buffs uptime, it would be more bearable. You still will have to reroll, but you would be getting the good buffs more consistently without removing completely the RNG part.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Yep. The problem with RtB is it's very core. First, you have six different buffs with very wide power differences - so if you get lots of bad combos, your performance will suffer independently from your skill. It's literally bad luck, but has way too much impact on performance.

    And then we get to the next part. Adding a CD and the conduits, makes the rotation smoother and you need less reroll overall, reducing variance by a good amount. However the problem is exactly that: RtB is functional when you don't have to reroll, and this makes it just a "fire and forget" button by taking out its own mechanic. It's the same as making all the buffs perfectly balanced, you don't have rerolling issue but then you're taking away everything from the skill itself.

    It just "cannot work". However if they made it a baseline "roll 2 or 3 buffs" only, and balance Outlaw on that buffs uptime, it would be more bearable. You still will have to reroll, but you would be getting the good buffs more consistently without removing completely the RNG part.
    Exactly. It’s really awkward because you actually want to reroll but you just cant. So technically the rotation is more smooth but it still feels bad because you are stuck with a bad buff. Blizzard haven’t fixed the extremely low performance of being unlucky.

    They need to do what you say or simply just reduce the significance of the buffs. The consequence of being unlucky is still way too big compared to any other spec in the game and while it might seems like a good idea to Blizzard in theory, it is simply not enjoyable in practice..

    But yes, if you don’t look at the dps meter when you are unlucky then Outlaw feels pretty good right now.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2021-01-22 at 03:08 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Exactly. So now you just have to accept a bad buff until RtB is off CD which you can say force a more smooth gameplay however it still results in a bad performance. I think sometimes people miss the point of why we were rerolling in BFA. It was not because we wanted to but because bad rolls gave bad performance. And they still do sadly. Right now Grand Melee is the worst buff and when you get it you cannot do anything to get rid of it until RtB is off CD. At least our conduits help the situation significantly.
    It's a dice roll, they're not all supposed to be winners. That's the flavor of the move. Look at the Darkmoon card decks this xpac. Seems to be a working as intended situation.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    It's a dice roll, they're not all supposed to be winners. That's the flavor of the move. Look at the Darkmoon card decks this xpac. Seems to be a working as intended situation.
    I bet it’s working as intended. It’s just not very enjoyable. It’s one of those ideas that looks good as a theoretical concept but in practice it’s not working. It would be fine in a single-player game but not in an MMO where performance comparable to other players matters.

  8. #28
    I have a week aura that tells me if my rolls are good and if I should reroll follow the RtB guide, all can i say is, if i see 2/3/4 times in a row, BAD REROLL, i feel like shit BUT when i get the GOD MODE aka all buff its a pleasure to play), I don't mind RtB as long as they remove the rng part, up the cd, and remove the bad rolls if you want to keep RtB

  9. #29
    I miss the old RtB. This is why I skipped playing rogue this expansion.

  10. #30
    If there weren't lucky outcomes it ruins the fantasy of rolling a pair destiny dice. If they were all equally good it wouldn't matter what you got unless they all changed how you played in a different way. Priority changing based on what you roll could be interesting, but at that point it becomes too much of a focus of the gameplay rather than the weapon or pistol play, and arguably the dice shouldn't be so much of a focus - otherwise that becomes an entire other spec fantasy of fate and destiny magic manipulation. It probably has a place in another kind of spec fantasy, but Outlaws are more about using dirty tricks to fight and while that can be, I think an Outlaw spec isn't necessarily asking for magical fate dice to be the main mechanic. Suplementary, more-so. It's probably better for theme it stay as impactful as it is unless the spec fantasy is changing again.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    If there weren't lucky outcomes it ruins the fantasy of rolling a pair destiny dice. If they were all equally good it wouldn't matter what you got unless they all changed how you played in a different way. Priority changing based on what you roll could be interesting, but at that point it becomes too much of a focus of the gameplay rather than the weapon or pistol play, and arguably the dice shouldn't be so much of a focus - otherwise that becomes an entire other spec fantasy of fate and destiny magic manipulation. It probably has a place in another kind of spec fantasy, but Outlaws are more about using dirty tricks to fight and while that can be, I think an Outlaw spec isn't necessarily asking for magical fate dice to be the main mechanic. Suplementary, more-so. It's probably better for theme it stay as impactful as it is unless the spec fantasy is changing again.
    Heavy RNG based gameplay is just not fun. I don't really care that much about spec fantasy. Fair enough that Blizzard want to be creative and create a pirate spec but it shouldn't be at the cost of good experiences. Procs are okay, but Outlaw Rogue is taking it too far.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    I have a week aura that tells me if my rolls are good and if I should reroll follow the RtB guide, all can i say is, if i see 2/3/4 times in a row, BAD REROLL, i feel like shit BUT when i get the GOD MODE aka all buff its a pleasure to play), I don't mind RtB as long as they remove the rng part, up the cd, and remove the bad rolls if you want to keep RtB
    The sad thing is that when you finally get really lucky and get God mode buffs you still do less damage than an Afflock or Boomie.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    The sad thing is that when you finally get really lucky and get God mode buffs you still do less damage than an Afflock or Boomie.
    The way i look is, those classes are first on the line to get nerf, im getting gear, getting IO and experience i need when that time will come, im 100% boomie/ww/UDK/Affliction warlocks will get nerf and i will be the first in line to steal their spot

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Heavy RNG based gameplay is just not fun. I don't really care that much about spec fantasy. Fair enough that Blizzard want to be creative and create a pirate spec but it shouldn't be at the cost of good experiences. Procs are okay, but Outlaw Rogue is taking it too far.
    I mean, I personally enjoy RtB more than any other iteration it has had right now - more than when you could substitute it for SnD which I think is basically what is being asked for here. But I guess that's just me. Some don't seem to like the RtB style for Rogues. Would it be better if there was just a small RNG element to SnD like a chance to proc on attack a very short dice effect while SnD is active? Maybe that way the interplay with some of the dice elements could still be there but maybe the overall bad feeling of having to roll itself could be taken away in that sense, if that's the thing people don't like (the rolling itself, I mean). I guess what I'm asking is, would a proc based on attacks feel better?

  14. #34
    I play on a certain mop pserver and it feels like such shit going from combat on there to retail outlaw. Clunky RNG lazy design by someone with a jack sparrow fetish.

  15. #35
    My biggest problem with RtB is that we have 0 ways to influence the rolls right now.
    Oh, you finally got lucky and rolled 5 buffs? But it was on a trash mob. It ended right before boss pull. Now you keep getting bad 1 rolls.

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