Shadow feels great to play, but Covenant & Legendaries are major downsides (?)

[Nyel]

First things first: I love the new (old) Shadow. It feels amazing to play, there are some really good new talent choices and overall getting rid of the horrible Voidform mechanic did wonders to the entire spec. Gameplay is great now.

But... Covenants and Legendaries are severely lacking (?). That's at least what most streamers say about Shadow at the moment. I tried to make up my mind which class I am going to main and just checked a lot of Shadow content on YouTube and this was mostly the major complaint.

All Covenant skills range from bad to very bad when it comes to gameplay (and, besides Nightfae, usefulness). Mindgames is horrible for PvE and very undertuned, Unholy Nova with its melee positioning is a major no go in most cases, the Kyrian ability is breaking Shadow gameplay (but numbers make up for it) and Nightfae is just a boring buff. Why are the Covenant abilities so inherently bad? In the case of Mindgames, why would I ever pick Venthyr as Holy or Discipline priest. It was clearly designed to be the Shadow go to but it's just so bad at the moment. Can this be fixed by tuning alone? I don't know. (Edit: I am talking about PvE here, I know that Mindgames can be useful in PvP, but it's still a very odd Covenant ability; and even though Discipline might make the most use of it, why would I go Venthyr instead of Kyrian or Necrolord in that case?).

Legendaries are in a similar, very underwhelming state - at least when it comes to those content creators.

Do you agree? Shadow gameplay is great and for the first time in many years is fun, but much of that enjoyment is taken away or trivialized by the horrible Covenant skills and underwhelming Legendaries?

[NeximEU]

While I definitely agree to some extent, it may be too early to tell if all things you mention will be ultimately negative or not.

For example legandary powers being a tad weak may just as well ending up with few balance issues and a wider range of options, where you can pick a game style that suits you rather than being shoehorned into the clearly strongest alternative.
A example that strong isn't nessesarily better would be to BFA, where COI was so strong that any azerite item which didn't have it was useless, making gearing a hazzle. Further the synergy with SA just made matters worse. This also had negative impacts on any content where you couldn't use them to the maximum effect (anything but raids), since the class was balanced with this extremely potent combination in mind.
Or early Legion, where some classes (SP included) were so dependant on a few legendaries that anything except those was basically useless. I was fortunate enough to get the mind blast belt first, 87,5% of players didn't.

Covenant abilities feels unfinished, and seem to suffer from priest having two healing specs and one damage spec then trying to have something which fits all, but then doesn't really fit anything. Melee range unholy nova (with 40 yards range listed in the tooltip) must be a bug.
My biggest concern here is Mindgames, which seems to be a quite clear PVP alternative. If tuned close to the others for other content it may be too strong to pass up on for PVP.
Eventually all covenant abilities are probably gonna get a PVP specific reduction, the same goes for some legendary powers (for other classes). But it will be a shitfest until all things are tuned, if they ever will be that is.

[idnn]

First things first: I love the new (old) Shadow. It feels amazing to play, there are some really good new talent choices and overall getting rid of the horrible Voidform mechanic did wonders to the entire spec. Gameplay is great now.

But... Covenants and Legendaries are severely lacking (?). That's at least what most streamers say about Shadow at the moment. I tried to make up my mind which class I am going to main and just checked a lot of Shadow content on YouTube and this was mostly the major complaint.

All Covenant skills range from bad to very bad when it comes to gameplay (and, besides Nightfae, usefulness). Mindgames is horrible for PvE and very undertuned, Unholy Nova with its melee positioning is a major no go in most cases, the Kyrian ability is breaking Shadow gameplay (but numbers make up for it) and Nightfae is just a boring buff. Why are the Covenant abilities so inherently bad? In the case of Mindgames, why would I ever pick Venthyr as Holy or Discipline priest. It was clearly designed to be the Shadow go to but it's just so bad at the moment. Can this be fixed by tuning alone? I don't know.

Legendaries are in a similar, very underwhelming state - at least when it comes to those content creators.

Do you agree? Shadow gameplay is great and for the first time in many years is fun, but much of that enjoyment is taken away or trivialized by the horrible Covenant skills and underwhelming Legendaries?

im happy you enjoy being a caster like all the others again. you probably also buy a shitty overpriced iphone every year so you can be like all the other sheep


the spec is slow as shit now how do you enjoy such a boring pacing is beyond my understanding

[Vaedan]

First things first: I love the new (old) Shadow. It feels amazing to play, there are some really good new talent choices and overall getting rid of the horrible Voidform mechanic did wonders to the entire spec. Gameplay is great now.

But... Covenants and Legendaries are severely lacking (?). That's at least what most streamers say about Shadow at the moment. I tried to make up my mind which class I am going to main and just checked a lot of Shadow content on YouTube and this was mostly the major complaint.

All Covenant skills range from bad to very bad when it comes to gameplay (and, besides Nightfae, usefulness). Mindgames is horrible for PvE and very undertuned, Unholy Nova with its melee positioning is a major no go in most cases, the Kyrian ability is breaking Shadow gameplay (but numbers make up for it) and Nightfae is just a boring buff. Why are the Covenant abilities so inherently bad? In the case of Mindgames, why would I ever pick Venthyr as Holy or Discipline priest. It was clearly designed to be the Shadow go to but it's just so bad at the moment. Can this be fixed by tuning alone? I don't know.

Legendaries are in a similar, very underwhelming state - at least when it comes to those content creators.

Do you agree? Shadow gameplay is great and for the first time in many years is fun, but much of that enjoyment is taken away or trivialized by the horrible Covenant skills and underwhelming Legendaries?

As a discipline main, I really think about going Venthyr.

1) teleport ability is a strong option for the Priest class, regardless of spec.

2) Mindgames are potent tool especially for pvp, when I can think of two uses. First one is defensive, when you use it on enemy DPS who just popped their CD to burst you down, so some portion of their damage heal you instead. The other is offensive, using it on enemy healer to secure a kill.
In PvE, it is not that bad for discipline actually. You'll use it on bosses when they hit hard your tank, so in reality, you mitigate some damage your tank takes and restore your mana on 45 sec CD. Not gamebreaking, but not useless either.

3) Since my Priest is void elf, I'm throwing my lot with Venthyr because of Kael'thas.

4) badass goth aestetics.

I haven't checked conduits, but it will also make impact.

[Nyel]

im happy you enjoy being a caster like all the others again. you probably also buy a shitty overpriced iphone every year so you can be like all the other sheep

the spec is slow as shit now how do you enjoy such a boring pacing is beyond my understanding

Boring pacing? You know what was slow as sh*t? Shadow outside of Voidform (which was the case for all solo content and even about 1/4 in dungeons and raids). So glad it's gone.

And I really don't know what's slow about the reworked Shadow Priest. It just feels way better than before. If you enjoy Voidform so much, you can still use it.

By the way, I realize that Shadow (now) and Elemental Shaman are basically the same, yet the reworked Shadow feels way better to play then Elemental Shaman which is plagued with Maelstorm for two expansions now. I played all hybrid casters and the reworked Shadow is by far the best - in my opinion - from a gameplay perspective (with Balance being trash from a gameplay perspective).

[Arainie]

the spec is slow as shit now how do you enjoy such a boring pacing is beyond my understanding

Believe it or not, but not everyone is all about zooming around the place blastin' everything to shreds. To me that is mind-numbingly boring!

[deviantcultist]

I do feel like the spec is technically healthier in SL, although I feel like they blindly gave in to people asking for "old" Shadow. As of now, the fantasy of the spec feels wrong. Back in Legion, they made a whole point about how Spriest is all about the mind and now they bring back the "disease" spell without altering its fantasy name just because it feels familiar to the Vanilla players.

Honestly the whole insanity mechanic feels like it's on life support until they decide to remove it altogether. Problem is that if they do that we will go from half Void spec to no Void spec at all.

[Vaedan]

I do feel like the spec is technically healthier in SL, although I feel like they blindly gave in to people asking for "old" Shadow. As of now, the fantasy of the spec feels wrong. Back in Legion, they made a whole point about how Spriest is all about the mind and now they bring back the "disease" spell without altering its fantasy name just because it feels familiar to the Vanilla players.

Honestly the whole insanity mechanic feels like it's on life support until they decide to remove it altogether. Problem is that if they do that we will go from half Void spec to no Void spec at all.

Well, shadow priests were always meant to assault the mind, it is their fantasy since vanilla. Devouring Plague never really felt fitting to that fantasy imho. It is leftover spell from the design of priest racial spells in which Devouring Plague served as a niche spell of undead priests. As the concept was scrapped and several spells were made baseline for the class regardless of race, this one felt quite weird, but it somewhat fitted the fantasy of "vampiric" caster who heals himself/herself through harming the enemy.

[DechCJC]

Surprised that you think Mindgames is bad for disc, it's easily the most flexible and generally useful ability for both PvE and PvP that we have available. It's our hardest hitting ability and it can be further amplified by schism and shadow covenant if both chosen, offering some powerful burst healing with atonement + the absorb and damage; Incredibly useful for PvP but also just a generally decent healing/damage throughput for PvE.

No idea about shadow really.

[Vaedan]

Surprised that you think Mindgames is bad for disc, it's easily the most flexible and generally useful ability for both PvE and PvP that we have available. It's our hardest hitting ability and it can be further amplified by schism and shadow covenant if both chosen, offering some powerful burst healing with atonement + the absorb and damage; Incredibly useful for PvP but also just a generally decent healing/damage throughput for PvE.

No idea about shadow really.

I was thinking exactly that. I believe Schism + Shadow Covenant builds will utilise that spell nicely.

I'm not on beta, so I can't check myself, but does Mindgames (and other covenant abilities) trigger atonement healing as well? If it does, it's actually pretty decent spell on 45 CD, especially with mana regen included.

As for shadow use of Mindgames... all it do for you is a decent dot which generates some insanity on medium CD, which is not that bad, but not really awesome. It goes with added benefit of the damage done by your target transfered to healing, which helps your tank, but it is not your role to keep tank alive while shadow. If we see some bosses using healing abilities, it could be nice for shadow to have a tool to deal with that, but I guess this will not be primary concern for you in general.

As for PvP, I really think it will be good for shadow as well, using it to negate enemy burst window, but most importantly, controlling healers to secure kill. It will give shadow priests quite nasty control in a form of fear, horrify, silence and reverse healing.

[NeximEU]

As for PvP, I really think it will be good for shadow as well, using it to negate enemy burst window, but most importantly, controlling healers to secure kill. It will give shadow priests quite nasty control in a form of fear, horrify, silence and reverse healing.

Which is my major gripe with it. Venthyr just seems such a good PVP choice it will very likely present balance issues.

Mindgames is good in itself. But there is also door of shadows to set up fear. Not to mention some reasonably good soulbinds for PVP, the door of shadows disorient specifically.

[Vaedan]

Which is my major gripe with it. Venthyr just seems such a good PVP choice it will very likely present balance issues.

Mindgames is good in itself. But there is also door of shadows to set up fear. Not to mention some reasonably good soulbinds for PVP, the door of shadows disorient specifically.

I must say I didn't think about door of shadows as set up for psychic scream, but it will be really powerful initiation. I haven't checked soulbinds so far, so I don't know what to expect on that regard.

The thing is, other covenant abilities seems really uninteresting for PVP. I would give a shot to Kyrian because of ridiculous burst potential, but once you pop it in arena, you'll get CCed immediately. Unholy Nova seem okay m+, but not that much for any competive PVP. Nightfae also don't really interest me even after rework, but that Spirit Animal form can be handy, given how bad our mobility is. The utility you get from Venthyr is really hard to miss thou.

[NeximEU]

I must say I didn't think about door of shadows as set up for psychic scream, but it will be really powerful initiation. I haven't checked soulbinds so far, so I don't know what to expect on that regard.

The thing is, other covenant abilities seems really uninteresting for PVP. I would give a shot to Kyrian because of ridiculous burst potential, but once you pop it in arena, you'll get CCed immediately. Unholy Nova seem okay m+, but not that much for any competive PVP. Nightfae also don't really interest me even after rework, but that Spirit Animal form can be handy, given how bad our mobility is. The utility you get from Venthyr is really hard to miss thou.

May I suggest checking out the soulbinds and see if you get the same impression I get?
https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/soul...stblade/priest

Mindgames downside is that it's purely single target. But as groups grow smaller the impact it has grows larger. In PVP a LOT of classes also have significant self healing... death strike just got a brand new meaning...

[Vaedan]

May I suggest checking out the soulbinds and see if you get the same impression I get?
https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/soul...stblade/priest

I must say Nadjia seems superior to other two soulbinds. Both disorienting or increasing movement speed after Door of Shadows are good, but in the end, I think going for potency soulbind will be more rewarding then going for endurance soulbind for both shadow or discipline. There are definitely some fun combos going on, like slowing enemies after a psychic scream wears of them. I must say that after years of playing discipline, I'm actually interested in playing shadow again.

Mindgames downside is that it's purely single target. But as groups grow smaller the impact it has grows larger. In PVP a LOT of classes also have significant self healing... death strike just got a brand new meaning...

Yes, it being only single target limit's its use, especially for m+ and raids, but Boon of the Ascended have pretty big CD and Unholy Nova loses it's value if the mobs you apply dot on get bursted by other players before you can get full value of it, so in the end, I don't really mind Mindgames are single target only. My concern is if it is dispellable or not. In that way, if you use it on a healer to secure kill, he can just dispel himself and negate your advantage for good.

And yea... I think that except of mages who rely more on shields then heals, basicly every other class in the game have some form of (self)healing and you can react to most of them quite easily. A rogue just drank Crimson Vial? Here's Mindgames, enjoy your drink!

I suspect that the ability will cause quite some confusion at the start of the expansion, but in time, players will learn how to use their selfheals more carefuly when a priest is around.

[NeximEU]

I must say Nadjia seems superior to other two soulbinds. Both disorienting or increasing movement speed after Door of Shadows are good, but in the end, I think going for potency soulbind will be more rewarding then going for endurance soulbind for both shadow or discipline. There are definitely some fun combos going on, like slowing enemies after a psychic scream wears of them. I must say that after years of playing discipline, I'm actually interested in playing shadow again.

Disorient on door of shadows is great, 25% reduced interrupt duration or dauntless duelist are both good, and if you can stack thrill seeker with PI, bender and void form it should pack quite a punch. While she is the strongest all three soul binds have their merits for Venthyr. Necrolords feels a lot weaker, or at least the soulbinds are less balanced.

Yes, it being only single target limit's its use, especially for m+ and raids, but Boon of the Ascended have pretty big CD and Unholy Nova loses it's value if the mobs you apply dot on get bursted by other players before you can get full value of it, so in the end, I don't really mind Mindgames are single target only. My concern is if it is dispellable or not. In that way, if you use it on a healer to secure kill, he can just dispel himself and negate your advantage for good.

And yea... I think that except of mages who rely more on shields then heals, basicly every other class in the game have some form of (self)healing and you can react to most of them quite easily. A rogue just drank Crimson Vial? Here's Mindgames, enjoy your drink!

I suspect that the ability will cause quite some confusion at the start of the expansion, but in time, players will learn how to use their selfheals more carefuly when a priest is around.

BFA already trained people to work around dispells with the PVP maledict trinket. If it's dispellable (it's currently is listed as a magic effect) it creates counter play, which is a good thing. It may also work as a pseudo dispell protection if a healer is hesitant to spam dispell dots to save dispells for mindgames, much like you played around dispells with maledict. While people will learn how to play better around it, it's still extremely potent.

I think in part people underestimate just how impactful mindgames can be. Since it both prevents 450% SP damage and instead heals for as much, the difference is 900% at most. At core, and for PVE, it's main effect is healing/preventing damage.

It's also most potent against DOTs and HOTs, since you can't just stop that damage/healing. Landing it on a druid with full HOTs in a silence/stun combo it first deals 300% damage, then prevents 450% healing instead turning that into 450% damage. The potential impact is then 300+450% damage, and 450% prevented healing. The end result is the druid coming out of the silence+stun combo at 1200% lower health then otherwise. It's like Maledict, but healing into it damages people.

It has a cast time, so it can be interrupted, and it's dispellable so there are counters. I still fear it may be so strong for PVP that you have no option but going Venthyr if you plan on doing any PVP, and that goes for all priest specs.

Mindgames looks to be a balance nightmare, which is my only concern. I fucking love the ability, and I don't mind having more utility as shadow in PVE. Again, my only gripe with it is potential balance issues.

[Vaedan]

Disorient on door of shadows is great, 25% reduced interrupt duration or dauntless duelist are both good, and if you can stack thrill seeker with PI, bender and void form it should pack quite a punch. While she is the strongest all three soul binds have their merits for Venthyr. Necrolords feels a lot weaker, or at least the soulbinds are less balanced.

Exactly. Thrill Seeker will be hard to build up in PvP I guess, but 20% haste is definitely worth the effort and it will be considerable power spike both in PvP and PvE once you get it. As a void elf priest, I'm now toying with combo of Door of Shadows and my racial teleport. It can easily work like that: set up Spacial Rift -> Door of Shadows to enemy team -> Psychic Scream to initiate combat -> Spacial Rift to reposition back to safe location. Even if you don't go that aggressive start, I can image confusing enemy players with DoS and Spacial Rift later on: seting up Spacial Rift -> DoS and as enemy chases you, reactivate Rift to reposition.

Even if you are race other then void elf, you'll get pretty good escape tool in DoS. Melee are training you: psychic scream -> DoS -> profit. If you use soulbind to slow your target after fear, some classes will have trouble to get to you after that, depending on the terrain and how you use it to your advantage. My trick I used in arena's (Blade's Edge, Dalaran Sewers, Mechadome) was using my spatial rift on high ground, jumping down and after melee followed me down, teleport back up. It usually gave me quite a lot of time, so I guess DoS will give all priests similar tricks to use. The only downside is the cast time.

BFA already trained people to work around dispells with the PVP maledict trinket. If it's dispellable (it's currently is listed as a magic effect) it creates counter play, which is a good thing. It may also work as a pseudo dispell protection if a healer is hesitant to spam dispell dots to save dispells for mindgames, much like you played around dispells with maledict. While people will learn how to play better around it, it's still extremely potent.

I think in part people underestimate just how impactful mindgames can be. Since it both prevents 450% SP damage and instead heals for as much, the difference is 900% at most. At core, and for PVE, it's main effect is healing/preventing damage.

It's also most potent against DOTs and HOTs, since you can't just stop that damage/healing. Landing it on a druid with full HOTs in a silence/stun combo it first deals 300% damage, then prevents 450% healing instead turning that into 450% damage. The potential impact is then 300+450% damage, and 450% prevented healing. The end result is the druid coming out of the silence+stun combo at 1200% lower health then otherwise. It's like Maledict, but healing into it damages people.

I was thinking the same math. I think people only looks at the base damage of the spell, but ignore the fact that it results either in more damage if the target use healing. As you said, best example are druids, they just keep their hots active all the time. What's also worth saying is that it can be potent offensive tool, it can help you survive enemy bursts. Shadow already have good defensive options, so I think that option will serve Holy/Discipline priests pretty well, since those two specs had survivability issues in BfA. Discipline will have quite a lot answers in their kit now. Barrier, Rapture, Pain Suppression, Mindgames, possibly Radiance spam if specced + combined with Radiance soulbind and Twist of Fate. Combined with reduced interrupts from Nadjia soulbind and Focused Will back to 2 stacks and possibly a Translucent Image soulbind (taking reduced damage after using Fade), I think discipline will finaly come back as hard to kill healers.

You know, it can even act as a psychological factor - your enemy may just hesitate to use his healing ability just to not give you the chance to revert it, which gives you another chance to burn him to the dust while you control him with silence and fears. You can also use it to prevent them to use selfheals once they are low on HP, following by silence and horrify to burst them down. We get SWD back, so bursting low HP targets will be even easier now.

It has a cast time, so it can be interrupted, and it's dispellable so there are counters. I still fear it may be so strong for PVP that you have no option but going Venthyr if you plan on doing any PVP, and that goes for all priest specs.

Mindgames looks to be a balance nightmare, which is my only concern. I fucking love the ability, and I don't mind having more utility as shadow in PVE. Again, my only gripe with it is potential balance issues.

Well, I also like Kyrian options to be honest, especially Kleia soulbind. You get access to immunity to bleeds, poisions, curses and diseases for 15 seconds after using Phial, but you also get the option to slow your targets when you damage them and the ultimate soulbind provides you with potent self heal, which will make you overall pretty durable in my view. Also, Boon of the Ascended can lead to pretty much hilarious bursts, but it will require careful use of the ability. I think if you prefer more straightforward playstyle and do not enjoy in toying with your targets, Kyrian will be decent option as well.

I agree with you people eventually learned how to play around Maledict. The good thing is that as a shadow, you get at least some value when your dots get dispeled and if not, the enemy healer just had to waste some mana (and dispels are not usually cheap thing) and more importantly GCD on removing the effect. Sometimes, even single GCD may result in win or loss, so it's still a good deal for me. I think Mindgames will be powerful tool, but you need to use it correctly. Misuse of the ability will leave you with little results, so it is eventually not really straightforward ability u will use on CD. Combined with cast time, medium CD and being dispelable, I think it will be quite OK and some people will be happy to choose other covenant because of that. My personal choice number 2 is Kyrian covenant, but after looking at all utility Venthyr gives us, I'm happy to join them. Now I may dust off my horde priest to try out other covenant and how it plays.

[Echeyakee]

Actually mindgames is the leading option for disc right now. Well, it's the top pick for raiding and in dungeons it's not far off kyrian. The bonus effects like the reversal and mana restoration are not even considered much, it's just the raw damage that it does. Schism in to mindgames feels a lot like light's wrath from legion.

The problem for shadow is that it has 0 interaction with the toolkit, just like the rest of the covenant abilities. You rarely get the insanity, as even bosses struggle to break the threshold in the short debuff duration, unless you're using the extension conduit. And the damage it does is far less impressive, compared to the rest of shadow's toolkit.

And that's the general idea with covenant abilities for shadow. Necro does decent damage in the dungeons, but is lackluster on single target and has way too short of a range for a caster ability. It also has no interaction with any shadow mechanics. Kyrian is strong, but once again, mostly useful in dungeons, needs you to be in melee range and you basically take a break from playing your class and play kyrian for 10 seconds. And night fae just gives you a bit more insanity, something shadow is not lacking as is. The CD reduction applies on the worst cooldown in history of wow, and the shadow fiend legendary that made it worthwhile just got nerfed in to irrelevance.

[Vaedan]

Actually mindgames is the leading option for disc right now. Well, it's the top pick for raiding and in dungeons it's not far off kyrian. The bonus effects like the reversal and mana restoration are not even considered much, it's just the raw damage that it does. Schism in to mindgames feels a lot like light's wrath from legion.

I can imagine that combo of new Shadow Covenant, Schism and Mindmages will be pretty good. Pretty ironic that disc can get better damage from that then shadow does.

[marathal]

personally I am looking forward to the end of the month when the prepatch hits. I have sat on the sidelines for too many years feeling like half of a player because I could not wrap my head around the void form play style, and never had the right combination of gear to make it work. Going back to some of the older style of play will take some getting use to, but I am at least encouraged that I will once again feel like I will contribute to the raid team.

[Foolicious]

Absolutely agree with those content creators!
Shadow is probably at a base level now one of the best classes right now. It doesn't feel like we need a certain legendary or covenant to play like a real class. For what feels like an eternity we have decent talents and choices/multiple good talens in one row.
But then i have to agree that the choices of covenants and legendaries
We have no aoe legendary (Mind blast increase technically can be used as one, but i doubt thats the intention behind it) and covenants are mostly boring. the rest of the legendarys are old azerite/artifact traits and really boring design wise.
Im most exited to go nightfae and use the power infusion legendary and thats not really anything that helps us as a spec, but others.
they said today they want to improve unsatisfying abilities, so i am exited to see if we can see some changes soon.

But to be fair thats a problem a lot of classes have right now. Legendaries don't feel that way, most of them are some % dmg buffs or some stupid stuff.
I think the hunter one that lets you set your tar trap on fire should be the standard for legendaries. Not a 20% damage increase for your cooldown >.>

I personally enjoy shadow enough without legendaries and covenants that i don't really mind which choices i have, but thats just me