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  1. #81
    Incompetent.

    All they'd have to do to remain consistent is read...and then write after they're caught up and assuming they're mildly talented it'd all jive.

    But it seems like lately they're just like hey let's like do XYZ and we'll just retcon some shit over.

  2. #82
    Content is always more important than the "writing" in a mmorpg. That being said WOW and everything about is has never been more than trivial fantasy lore, like in hundreds of other stories before. Nothing wrong about that, but there are some lore nazis out there who are acting like wow books are the pinnacle of modern literature.
    BUT even considering this, especially BFA is VERY underwhelming when it comes to the writing. Idc that much about the lore, but how can you ignore the whole sylvanas situation. Her "fight" against the LK is probably one of the most disappointing thing I have ever encountered in a game story-wise.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Is it? I'd call people praising it an "accolade," but if you want to downgrade that to "it was generally positively received by the majority of players" we can do that instead. I think the meaning was pretty obvious and stated clearly enough.
    Accolade: noun
    plural noun: accolades
    "An award or privilege granted as a special honor or as an acknowledgment of merit."

    I hate to get into semantics, but if you're going to lean heavily on a word, you should know what it actually means.

    And BFA was not recieved positively by the majority of players. It saw the second largest sub loss in the game's history, and, if memory serves, had the highest number of revisions made to any new system (specifically the Azerite system which underwent several revisions due to its overwhelmingly poor reception by players in-game and on the forums). There are far, far more posts pointing out the incredibly poor plot points (many of which went unresolved, like the giant sword sticking out of Silithus, or were just unimpactful, like the idea that Azerite would change the war turning out to be a whole lotta nothing) and the grade-school level character writing (every word out of Nathanos' mouth, Anduin refusing to avenge yet another mass genocide, Sylvanas got a scratch and immediately revealed how evil she is in front of a crowd) than there are posts praising BFA's writing. Within Blizz itself, several of the Devs have tacitly acknowledged that a lot of the plot could be handled better but shareholders wanted an emphasis on directing assets towards increasing time-played metrics.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Amazon probably doesn't really care how Blizzard uses or treats Chronicle in terms of their game's lore, they just use whatever marketing blurb was sent to them and they've not had cause or care to update or otherwise change it. At this point, people are being scammed and Blizzard doesn’t dare.

    And, insofar as that goes, it is still definitive - the most definitive resource material WoW has ever had, even if it isn't necessarily protected from or otherwise guaranteed against future retcons.
    It’s not about Amazon caring. They probably don’t even know about Blizzard’s decision. The point is that they weren’t sent a new blurb so that people know what they’re buying.

    And nah I disagree about it being definitive. Shadowlands is about to retcon a whole shit ton of it, I recon. Blizzard knows this. It’s why they told us about Chronicle’s new direction.

  5. #85
    I dont think the novels are problem. In fact, the live game lore is problem because it is obvious they cannot develop all the story they have in mind and they adjust it according to how popular is the expansion. In game, the story is rushed and there are few patches that take their time to write it consistenly.

    On the other hand, it seems Blizzard struggles a lot to write around characters. Some "new" characters do no cause a good impact and they are not popular enough to be keep being written. Other ones are the classic characters that are difficult to keep a consistent voice through the games. With BFA, it seems Blizzard wanted to get rid of the classic villains, some pending faction war issues and have additional freedom to create whatever they want in the future. Thats why they are creating new cosmology, a new pantheon and everything.

    However, if they are not able to tell the story they want, the same problems will appear again.

  6. #86
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    Accolade: noun
    plural noun: accolades
    "An award or privilege granted as a special honor or as an acknowledgment of merit."

    I hate to get into semantics, but if you're going to lean heavy on a word, you should know what it actually means.
    Yes, I do know what it means - and it's a pretty common term that sums up a variety of praise or merits. So yeah, I think you're just being overly pedantic here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    And BFA was not recieved positively by the majority of players. It saw the second largest sub loss in the game's history, and, if memory serves, had the highest number of revisions made to any new system (specifically the Azerite system which underwent several revisions to its overwhelmingly poor reception by players in-game and on the forums). There are far, far more posts pointing out the incredibly poor plot points (many of which went unresolved, like the giant sword sticking out of Silithus, or were just unimpactful, like the idea that Azerite would change the war turning out to be a whole lotta nothing) and the grade-school level character writing (every word out of Nathanos' mouth, Anduin refusing to avenge yet another mass genocide, Sylvanas got a scratch and immediately revealed how evil she is in front of a crowd) than there are posts praising BFA's writing. Within Blizz itself, several of the Devs have tacitly acknowledged that a lot of the plot could be handled better but shareholders wanted an emphasis on directing assets towards increasing time-played metrics.
    I never said BfA was received positively by the majority of players. I did say that even it has its adherents, though; so even condemnation is far from universal or objective (as was being implied).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldielocks View Post
    It’s not about Amazon caring. They probably don’t even know about Blizzard’s decision. The point is that they weren’t sent a new blurb so that people know what they’re buying.

    And nah I disagree about it being definitive. Shadowlands is about to retcon a whole shit ton of it, I recon. Blizzard knows this. It’s why they told us about Chronicle’s new direction.
    Pretty sure that never happens, though. Chronicle also pointedly did not explore the Shadowlands as a region, bringing it up only briefly in an aside and even mentioning that it was mysterious and infinite. So no, Shadowlands isn't a retcon at all to the Shadowlands proper, because Chronicle was at pains not to define it. Basically did the same thing with the Emerald Dream, the Void, and any other planes beyond the physical universe.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  7. #87
    The Lightbringer Perkunas's Avatar
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    Isn't one of them in love with Plot Armor McCorpsebride? That guy should get shit-canned.
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    When we both of us knew how the end always is...

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The night elves were involved only in the War of the Satyr and the War of the Shifting Sands during the Long Vigil, and Tyrande personally fought only in the first conflict.

    "King Chin" was just a funny nickname made because he had a larger chin compared to other Human NPCs due to his unique model. There wasn't anything deeper.
    It was never just about the chin--it was a way of pointing out that both his design and his characterization were blatantly anime inspired, which many people hated. Regardless, the point about him being a hothead trope until the sudden ass-pull where he's the pinnacle of all that is good and noble holds firm. As for Satyr/Shifting sands...yes, those are the two major wars named; however, both Tyrande and other Night Elves have pointed out that there were constant border skirmishes, small scale conflicts, and internal faction strife that kept the Sisters of the Moon pretty damn occupied for the last several thousand years. To say nothing of the fact that Tyrande participated in both the War of the Ancients AND the Third War, which Wrynn....did not. In fact, he's a far cry from a combat veteran, having spent a fair chunk of his life as either a refugee prince, a gladiator (which is not the same as being a battlefield tactician) or a petulant, temperamental king. He was directly involved in the war against the Lich King, albiet from the sidelines for a fair bit of it, and iirc he was involved in some of the Cataclysm drama where he got into a row with Garrosh.

    Not what I'd call a lifetime of battlefield expertise.

  9. #89
    The writers for the zone storylines usually deliver pretty good stuff. They might not be perfect, but they are very good. Whoever is responsible for the overarching storyline (so in BfA the war campaign as well as the Magni questlines that öead the player from Kul Tiras to Nazjatar to the Nzoth assaults) as well as the persons who write the main storyline including Sylvanas atm are clearly working in a field that is way, way above their capabilities.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    It was never just about the chin--it was a way of pointing out that both his design and his characterization were blatantly anime inspired, which many people hated. Regardless, the point about him being a hothead trope until the sudden ass-pull where he's the pinnacle of all that is good and noble holds firm. As for Satyr/Shifting sands...yes, those are the two major wars named; however, both Tyrande and other Night Elves have pointed out that there were constant border skirmishes, small scale conflicts, and internal faction strife that kept the Sisters of the Moon pretty damn occupied for the last several thousand years. To say nothing of the fact that Tyrande participated in both the War of the Ancients AND the Third War, which Wrynn....did not. In fact, he's a far cry from a combat veteran, having spent a fair chunk of his life as either a refugee prince, a gladiator (which is not the same as being a battlefield tactician) or a petulant, temperamental king. He was directly involved in the war against the Lich King, albiet from the sidelines for a fair bit of it, and iirc he was involved in some of the Cataclysm drama where he got into a row with Garrosh.

    Not what I'd call a lifetime of battlefield expertise.
    It's still reaching. Being a military veteran doesn't necessarily make you patient. Garrosh was a military veteran who led many armies, but he was certainly not patient. Same thing for Tyrande.

    The complaint would be valid if it was established that Tyrande is a patient person. Then Yes, A Little Patience scenario would be inconsistent with Tyrande's previous characterization. But she was actually shown to be hot-headed in WC3.
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  11. #91
    The writing is pretty good if you don't take every single story beat as far out of context as possible, but the people on these forums don't seem to possess that ability at large, so the result we get is people who at their maximum potential couldn't match a self-published smut writer saying professional writers are incompetent.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It's still reaching. Being a military veteran doesn't necessarily make you patient. Garrosh was a military veteran who led many armies, but he was certainly not patient. Same thing for Tyrande.

    The complaint would be valid if it was established that Tyrande is a patient person. Then Yes, A Little Patience scenario would be inconsistent with Tyrande's previous characterization. But she was actually shown to be hot-headed in WC3.
    You misunderstand. The complaint is not about Tyrande (except insofar as Varian explaining a female veteran's place to her is condescending as all fuck and reeks of "bro writer syndrome"). The complaint is about Varian "I'll punch whoever dafuck I want to, I'm King damnit!" Wrynn suddenly pulling a character 180 and being a wise patient combat tactician for no better reason than because the plot demanded it. That is the very definition of weak writing--it fails on the consistency and logic checks, establishes no motivation or arc for the personality changes, nada.

    And before you say "oh well that's just because it's an MMO", I feel compelled to point out that there are several MMO's which succeed to at least *some* degree at establishing consistent in-game lore and compelling, relatable character motivations. In WoW, I daresay I can't think of a single main character who's been consistent and whose motivations make any degree of sense. Credit where it's due, they at least *tried* with Jaina in BFA. Emphasis on tried. I want to give her character shit for dropping her completely understandable indignation the second Green Jesus touched her shoulder but....shit, Thrall touching me just about anywhere would make me weak in the knees too, and I'd probably forget about whatever the hell I was mad about right then and there. So that one passes my "would someone react this way in real life" test :-P

    (Obviously joking on the latter, but it's getting late and I need some sleep. Fun debate, cheers!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    The writing is pretty good if you don't take every single story beat as far out of context as possible, but the people on these forums don't seem to possess that ability at large, so the result we get is people who at their maximum potential couldn't match a self-published smut writer saying professional writers are incompetent.
    I think you might have that backwards. The writing is fine as long as you IGNORE context. Once you start looking at the in-world implications of stuff like "the Legion transcends all realities and also has warp capable spaceships" or "the Horde has comitted mass genocide twice and the Alliance still refuses to disarm them" and then consider how that breaks a lot (and I mean a LOT) of the narrative systems the game was predicated on....it starts to unravel awfully fast.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobosan View Post
    You misunderstand. The complaint is not about Tyrande (except insofar as Varian explaining a female veteran's place to her is condescending as all fuck and reeks of "bro writer syndrome"). The complaint is about Varian "I'll punch whoever dafuck I want to, I'm King damnit!" Wrynn suddenly pulling a character 180 and being a wise patient combat tactician for no better reason than because the plot demanded it. That is the very definition of weak writing--it fails on the consistency and logic checks, establishes no motivation or arc for the personality changes, nada.

    And before you say "oh well that's just because it's an MMO", I feel compelled to point out that there are several MMO's which succeed to at least *some* degree at establishing consistent in-game lore and compelling, relatable character motivations. In WoW, I daresay I can't think of a single main character who's been consistent and whose motivations make any degree of sense. Credit where it's due, they at least *tried* with Jaina in BFA. Emphasis on tried. I want to give her character shit for dropping her completely understandable indignation the second Green Jesus touched her shoulder but....shit, Thrall touching me just about anywhere would make me weak in the knees too, and I'd probably forget about whatever the hell I was mad about right then and there. So that one passes my "would someone react this way in real life" test :-P

    (Obviously joking on the latter, but it's getting late and I need some sleep. Fun debate, cheers!)

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    I think you might have that backwards. The writing is fine as long as you IGNORE context. Once you start looking at the in-world implications of stuff like "the Legion transcends all realities and also has warp capable spaceships" or "the Horde has comitted mass genocide twice and the Alliance still refuses to disarm them" and then consider how that breaks a lot (and I mean a LOT) of the narrative systems the game was predicated on....it starts to unravel awfully fast.
    I wasn't even planning on saying "oh well it's just because it's an MMO". I'm just going to say that Varian spent a lot of time with Anduin in-between WotLK and MoP, and very clearly that affected him deeply. If in WotLK Varian was violent and ruthless, by MoP he was more patient, careful, and wise. He refused to weaponize the Sha powers, he tried to earn the trust of his allies, he even allowed Garrosh to receive a proper trial for his crimes. It's made evident that spending time with his pacifist son truly helped Varian become a more rational person. It would be inconsistent characterization if the scenario was just an isolated moment of Varian inexplicably acting wise, but then later events confirm that he is truly changing.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-09-08 at 07:11 PM.
    We each walk a line. Choose yours.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal The Black View Post
    I think he means the way Danuser "twisted" chronicles to be just a "Titan PoV" while it was praised as definitive canon for all of warcraft universe...

    This way he can twist and turn anything he pleases and create even more retcons...
    I kind of though that's what they were going for when reading it way before he made those comments.

  15. #95
    I imagine the writers are reasonably competent, but they have to obey the whims of the corporate suits who want plot point X and Y because they think it will draw attention - with no concern for continuity or common sense.

  16. #96
    No, i think this community is.

  17. #97
    The current writers are definitely the worst ones so far. Them doing retcons left and right every other day without a care and as such making it impossible to actually know wtf happened in the story because it could be changed the very next day is objectively bad writing. They don't think any further than 5 minutes into the future AT MOST, since they tend to clearly write themselves into corners all the time, "solving" those by using even more retcons.

    Then you see that they are completely out of touch with their audience, because they are always completely surprised if players do not like the characters they want to shove into your face at every opportunity or actually do not want to betray their own faction AGAIN. They cannot fathom the possibility of the players having completely different reactions to their stories than whatever it is they imagine. Then they want to push their own stupid agendas, like making Sylvanas a feminist though never once in her life has she in any way been oppressed for being a woman (nor anyone she knows or cares about) or making the entirety of BFA a preschool morality lesson that you should not wage war in a game that completely revolves around war. Also sometimes it feels like they want to admonish you for playing Horde.

    It's also not helped by the writers having attitudes like wanting to hear criticism, but only if said criticism is positive (which not only is NOT criticism, it's actually detrimental to the writer because it only reinforces the bad aspects of their writing). Because for some reason whenever you say something bad about their writing, they consider it an attack on their person and the people criticizing, even with good intentions, are considered hateful.

    Re: the retconning it's doubly sad since APPARENTLY Blizzard actually have a job position called "Loremaster" or some similar BS whom the writers supposedly consult when writing a piece of lore to check if it would contradict any piece of established lore. Given their track record, these loremasters either 1.) don't exist, 2.) are constantly drunk or high, 3.) never show up for work or 4.) are just completely ignored. There's also their unwillingness to do the simplest of researches about the characters or races they're supposed to write about.

    While all of the above is bad (and there are tons of other reasons I didn't mention aswell), the biggest issue with their writing is their clinging to the "rule of cool" and ignoring any bit of lore, no matter how well established or the implications it would bring with it, just to have some sort of "epic moment" (which oftentimes isn't even epic, but quite cringeworthy).
    Last edited by Sangris; 2020-09-08 at 07:19 PM.
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    when i learned anythin from mmo-c then it is that shit is only bad when the horde does it
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    Baine is like the most unlikeable character you are supposed to like.

  18. #98
    In the eyes of the hypercritical, zero foresight WoW community that hates everything Blizzard does or doesn't do: Fuck yes.

    In the eyes of anybody able to look at the game's story from a detached, pragmatic viewpoint: Not even close.

    Sadly, about 95% of the people on this forum fall into the former group so this thread will serve as little more than an echo chamber for super unique opinion that WoW's story has sucked ass since the culmination of WotLK.

  19. #99
    I would bet it's not the writers but the people running the show.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Too many cooks in the kitchen and they try too hard to have too many soap opera-like plots instead of focusing on gameplay.
    I don't think the story should be focused on gameplay, but I agree with the "too many cooks" part.

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