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  1. #161
    I'm wondering how many comments criticising the competency of the writers come from the lack of story of patch 8.3 and how N'zoth was handled. Zone stories were solid, war campaign was average, Nazjatar was ok. I used to think that only zones' stories were nice until i recently rolled some alts and could play the whole story of Nazjatar (except the "earn 3000xp on your follower" quest) and the war campaign without time-gating. Made for a more fluid and overall better story. Also, all this is quite subjective, and calling somebody incompetent because you didn't like the story...seems kinda unfair.

  2. #162
    Bloodsail Admiral ipoststuff's Avatar
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    I don't think writers have enough freedom with the story. WoW story has to keep going expansion after expansion like a long running sitcom.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    I don't think writers have enough freedom with the story. WoW story has to keep going expansion after expansion like a long running sitcom.
    More like the current writers don't know the current lore well enough and is not invested in it either.

  4. #164
    I'm not qualified to say if they're competent or not at their job.

    What i see from current WoW lore is that there's so much material and so many leads available and then we're always down to the same old "horde and ally hate each other but there's this super evil guy we have to join efforts to beat so we can get back at our beating each other". I do not really like that, especially after MoP that was all about "why are you fighting" and paradoxically BfA that was supposed to be centered on the HvA conflict only to pull out a "it was me all along" move at the end.

    Gonna bash BfA a little more just because it's the latest and freshest in my memory: why the hell all the HvA leads were just abruptly stopped in favor of the old god theme which is huge enough to be a whole expansion by itself.

    See, what i don't like at all of the "modern era" WoW is that inconsistency is everywhere, and not only about the main story. Actually, world building, side quests, side characters are well planned and inserted in the context. It may be because it's a very small story with a short lifespan so it doesn't have enough hooks to really grapple into the main lead.

    Main story instead is a mess. I basically like the characters, some are bland, some are better but overall i'm fine with them. What i don't understand is why every single time they start lots of things without actually ending a single one and cutting most of them with no explanations. The amount of regular retcons to adapt old story to new leads just because it's how it is. An most important, the fact that everything is presented as the new big thing that will change history forever but in the end it's just "kill this guy or world explodes".

    What i feel from this is that new ideas are treated just as a "we need a new story that lasts two years for this xpack" with everything after being completely disconnected. I don't feel a world is building up, it looks like someone is trying to superglue Duplo blocks on a house made with Lego.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    More like the current writers don't know the current lore well enough and is not invested in it either.
    Both of your post and quoted one. They don't know and don't care about knowing it, cause once you did the 2 years expansion cycle, it's time to shoot out another chapter that doens't have to be connected at all. It just needs to be new and flashy.
    No one wants to choose. Everyone wants everything.

  5. #165
    No they are not.

    But they need to find the balance that tells a good story in an MMORPG and across all other mediums.

    At least now we have new characters, seeds for future story chapters and stories that continue across expansions, which is good, are they good stories or not that's a different thing.

    I do like what they are trying to tell, although I don't like how it's being told and not the story direction itself.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    I don't think writers have enough freedom with the story. WoW story has to keep going expansion after expansion like a long running sitcom.
    If BFA is any indication, it's the opposite - the writers have too much freedom to create absolute dross that the game doesn't have the mechanical ability to follow through on and the devs don't want. The BFA marketing campaign was better than the actual story put out in as much as it represented a product people actually wanted.

    On-topic, Writing fun pulp fantasy isn't all that hard, but you need to know that's what you're writing and you need to actually want to write it. Sappy message-mongering narratives at odds with the purpose of the game will fail regardless of technical skill - there are a lot in their stable - Stackpole, Brooks, even Golden and Danuser haven't been off-base at all times, their writing is on a perfectly servicable level for what the game is. What it isn't servicable for are the stories they're trying to tell. There are conceptual problems more serious than any shortcoming in terms of continuity or respect for prior material, which let's face it, was retconned for ages.
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  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliarne View Post
    I'm wondering how many comments criticising the competency of the writers come from the lack of story of patch 8.3 and how N'zoth was handled. Zone stories were solid, war campaign was average, Nazjatar was ok. I used to think that only zones' stories were nice until i recently rolled some alts and could play the whole story of Nazjatar (except the "earn 3000xp on your follower" quest) and the war campaign without time-gating. Made for a more fluid and overall better story. Also, all this is quite subjective, and calling somebody incompetent because you didn't like the story...seems kinda unfair.
    I would suggest you take some time to read more on this forum, there are some very good analyses as to exactly what was poorly handled.
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    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
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  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i saw half a dozen people here who wrote a better bfa plot with 2 paragraphs, by just making the alliance attack first.
    > better plot
    > plot point that makes no sense


    Good one

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Fibh View Post
    My 9y old nephew wrote a pokémon fanfic the other day. His characters were more consistent than wow's.
    Hyperbole is a good way of convincing people you are wrong - job well done there.

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  10. #170
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEHPALLYTANK View Post

    D3 had some pretty good story writing, as did Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm (I'm not including LotV cause it felt like it just went into a strange territory with the main purpose to be preventing SC3 from ever being a thing).
    The only sane way you could say something like that is if you never touched any of the previous games. D3 and SC2 have taken a giant dump on how amazing the story was for first Diablo and Starcraft games.

  11. #171
    Anyone looking to WoW novels for high quality fiction forgets that these are more tie-ins for marketing purposes than hard-nosed literature.

    Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed reading the novels myself. But I take them with a huge pinch of salt. Ditto for the game's lore. Always enjoyed it, but never held it to any higher than a bar that it's meant to be at. The lore plays third fiddle to gameplay and theme parkery.

  12. #172
    I am Murloc! Chonar's Avatar
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    I think they're competent in their craft, but beholden to too many restrictions and people above them enforcing their restrictions.

    You got the story that needs telling
    The story that the game is telling
    The story how the playerbase is experiencing it (not the same)
    The knowledge of the next expanion roughly shaped they cant undermine through their writing
    The plans Blizzard has for current and future characters
    etc etc etc.

    Lack of creative freedom creates awkward writing. The fact that a bunch of stories were still entertaining is more a testament to their ability than anything else.
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  13. #173
    Legendary! TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    The only sane way you could say something like that is if you never touched any of the previous games. D3 and SC2 have taken a giant dump on how amazing the story was for first Diablo and Starcraft games.
    I did skip D1 and D2, but I played through the entirety of SC and Broodwar.

    I don't see much of a disconnect between the story of SC and SC2, do you have anything specific to cite as an example of where SC2 trampled over the original lore? (Excluding anything from LotV, because as I already said I think LotV took a strange turn for a reason that has literally nothing to do with the story).
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  14. #174
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    > better plot
    > plot point that makes no sense


    Good one
    you serious believe, with a straight face, that the alliance had not a single reason to attack the horde before they got their ass kicked? LUL

  15. #175
    I believe the need to justify new content for each expansion is more important than making a consistent story in the MMO. And this has been the problem with the story since the MMO started. Sure, there were problems with the story in the RTS but at least it felt like chapters in a book logically going from one place to the next. In the MMO one expansion may as well be in a different book from the next one. The stories don't line up at all.

    Current expansions use writing to justify the gameplay and the story doesn't have any consistency or merit in its own right. After WOD, players left alternate draenor after fighting the Iron Horde and were now are back on Azeroth and fighting the legion. Totally nothing to do with alternate Draenor anymore, that story is left in the dust. None of the issues of having alternate dimensions and portals and multiple versions of same characters is addressed again. The next expansion starts off with the legion invading azeroth, but instead of infinite waves of demons over all of azeroth they only attack one zone. That is just bad writing. Then inexplicably, instead of the factions fighting together, all of a sudden the factions are split again because of bad LOS in the terrain. Like seriously? Its bad writing because they could have either a) had the factions team up and be done with it or b) actually had Sylvanas betray the alliance and be done with it as well no middle ground nonsense. And this theme of not being able to pick a path and stick with it will be an ongoing problem for the Horde and Sylvanas. So after going to the class order halls, instead of learning everything to learn about the lore of our classes and all the abilities and talents therein, we learn about a weapon and "borrow" abilities tied to the weapon and this becomes a recurring theme. Which results in players actually not getting any new "class" abilities or knowledge from the order halls, just a weapon that goes inert at the end of the expansion. Now that "writing" was all justified by gameplay decisions not any serious "lore". Because all the actual "class" lore was thrown out the window in many respects. Then we get the return of Illidan and the Illidari and now he is the hero. Another old RTS character conveniently written as a plot device to open a portal to Argus. Ok great, so we go find all these additional "artifacts" from all over azeroth and we use them to beat the world titan soul of Argus with the help of some recovering titans. And as a result Archimonde starts forming from a cloud and stabs Azeroth with his sword and.... "the end" of the story. None of that was ever followed up on in BFA. BFA literally takes the residue of the sword and after that just becomes another series of convenient plot devices to justify another expansion that deviates from one plot to the next and never follows through on any of them as if you were reading an actual story in a book. It starts off as a faction war, where the "writing" isn't clear if Sylvanas is actually "evil" or just "misunderstood" in burning down teldrassil. But it happens to be a plot device to start the "faction war" theme. However, instead of actually fighting (it was a cinematic cutscene after all), players go off to explore the oceans and find another race of trolls and humans that just happen to be thick(yeah that is a plot device). Thus the faction war gets hijacked in the middle because the plot and "writing". So as the focus is in the seas, we get a side story about Ashzara another old RTS character, that is again used as a plot device to deviate to another story line. Now it is about an old god and now players have to fight the old gods in their home territory. And after that, we go back to Sylvanas and now she is really just "bad" because of game play/narrative reasons hates both alliance and horde and has become super overpowered because of some unknown "death"entity. And that "writing" opens the way to Shadowlands to find out about the death entity and now the factions are friends again(?). No real satisfying treatment of the old gods, not real satisfying conclusion of the faction war, no real satisfying conclusion for the burning of teldrassil. Now we are simply off on a whole different story line and that other stuff is done with.

    Now if those stories were done in an RTS, they likely would follow a more coherent pattern and be done a lot better. The legion invasion would have been treated as a proper invasion, unfortunately that would also mean that players would not be the main focus. So instead of "players" finding these artifacts and doing the raids and dungeons, some new "hero" character would be doing the work and other "hero" characters on the 'bad" side would be created to oppose them. Thus the narrative would continue consistently like an actual story. As of now, since players do most of the work, there are no new recurring NPC "heroes" that have been added to the lore. Most of the NPC heroes are those either from the RTS or Vanilla WOW.

    Given that the story has to support the need of the business to keep paying for new expansions and coming up with new content for each expansion, I think this is about as good as you can expect. It isn't as bad as it could be, even though story wise it isn't that great, especially compared to the RTS. But who plays games for deep stories?
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2020-09-09 at 02:34 PM.

  16. #176
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    "The whole game is a sham, because a Rogue could just kill Gul'dan while he's sleeping." You're aware that's not really how stories work, I take it? I mean there is a degree of suspension of disbelief involved here. Since what was holding them there was also apparently drawing on their essence to keep the Dark Portal up, physical death may not have stopped the process all that well, either.
    that was a horrendous extrapolation from what we had, and you are trying to make sense out of the plot hole, again

    they were right there, in the plate, we could have killed then, end their threat and also end the dark portal, plain and simple, but we didn't because pLoT, instead of a better scenario, they just free puff

    what if we free then, we try to kill then, but gul'dan clean the floor with us, but don't kill us, because his power was drained? that would make things more enjoyable, make more sense, we were not just the dumbasses who freed gul'dan to cause hellfire and legion after all, we at least try to smoke him.

    Freeing the villain like that is not a good plot device.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-09-09 at 02:14 PM.

  17. #177
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    that was a horrendous extrapolation from what we had., and you are trying to make sense out of the plot hole, again

    they were right there, in the plate, we could have killed then and end their threat and also end the dark portal, plain and simple, but we didn't because pLoT, instead of a better scenario, they just free puff
    Not really. The goal was closing the Dark Portal - you didn't really even know the Shadow Council members were even here. Even if you did know, it was an entirely different world and timeline, so perhaps they were different people? The PC could be excused for not even knowing who Teron'gor originally was, or even Cho'gall depending if they were the ones who entered the Bastion of Twilight canonically. By the time you encounter Gul'dan, who everyone ought to know at least by reputation, you'd already freed the other two and Gul'dan was exhorting you to free him as the quickest means of shutting down the Portal and ending the threat to the Vanguard forces.

    Sure, *maybe* they could've killed them and spared themselves a lot of narrative and content - but then the Valar in LotR could've also got up off their duffs and ended the threat of Sauron with a snap of their fingers (considering Sauron was himself just an upstart minor angel). Using hindsight and hyperbolic justifications to cut the plot out of a narrative is just a bad argument. Perfect logic and zero errors in judgment will *always* result in quick resolution, which isn't really what you're aiming for when, you know, you're trying to tell a story.
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  18. #178
    I think there's a lot of inconsistency in the quality of the writing. some of the quests and story are very good, some are pretty bad and most is somewhere between the two. overall I think it's probably fairly good but the bad is definitely noticeable
    whether it comes from lack of talent, "too many chefs", poor coordination, etc is harder to pin down

    as for the books, they're a pretty mixed bag too. I never go into a games book with high expectations (much like movies based on games) so I'm not too disappointed by them and I do remember The Last Guardian standing out amongst the early ones as being particularly enjoyable

  19. #179
    Man this whole thread is just one giant cringe factory.

    Its interesting how this forum has managed to keep an active following of people, over many years now, who literally just hate the wow lore, yet doesnt part ways with it. Instead they dig really deep into it and discuss it vehemently on this site(and others i presume). They keep reading the lore - then rushing here to say how much it sucks.

    To me thats just so fucking cringe. Why not spend your time on something you like instead?

  20. #180
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not really. The goal was closing the Dark Portal - you didn't really even know the Shadow Council members were even here. Even if you did know, it was an entirely different world and timeline, so perhaps they were different people? The PC could be excused for not even knowing who Teron'gor originally was, or even Cho'gall depending if they were the ones who entered the Bastion of Twilight canonically. By the time you encounter Gul'dan, who everyone ought to know at least by reputation, you'd already freed the other two and Gul'dan was exhorting you to free him as the quickest means of shutting down the Portal and ending the threat to the Vanguard forces.
    just because we didn't knew they were there don't mean we could not kill then, we are not the dumb type of soldier do just do what is told when we know it is one main villains, they were shadow council, and everyone knew what the shadow council was up to, we faced cho'gal and we knew stories about gul'dan, we are not stupid

    Why waste time destroying those runes? seems like the quick way was to cut his head off.

    Again, you are trying to justify a nonsense with weak points, completely invalid since none of that even play out, we just free the shadow council to fuck up the world, they could have handle much better, but they didn't, therefore, they were incompetent here.

    Sure, *maybe* they could've killed them and spared themselves a lot of narrative and content -
    or maybe they could have written a better story that doesn't need us being dumb heroes, setting the villain free just for plot device

    they could have made other scenarios that we were forced to free then, that we try to kill then but we do not succeed and things like that, the way we see is too much convenient, almost like a deus ex machina kind of thing.

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